STOP What You Are Doing and Go Get Fahrenheit 9/11 DVD From Your Library!

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SackLunch

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SuzQ said:
STOP what you're doing and go got FahrenHYPE 9/11!

....to do a side-by-side "TRUTH COMPARISON", my friend. I have not watched EITHER DVD & do not plan to. Bush won, I'm happy. :)

However, I've seen several examples of Moore's "truth", which is to say he cuts, pastes, & edits clips together. So, no - it's not a "lie", just clever editing. Perhaps The Donald should hire him for The Apprentice next season. ;) Seriously, the worst is apparently when the video shows dead Iraqi civilians & the next shot cuts to our soldiers "whooping it up" to heavy metal music, as if to say the shots are related in any way??? He also interviews ONE mother who lost a soldier & hates Bush as a result. I can appreciate her grief that he effectively "manipulated" for his camera - but provides us NO balance with the MAJORITY of parents who think their children died for an HONORABLE cause.

With two family members who are military, this (and the fact that he deplorably makes fun of Bush's actions on 9/11 when even Hillary CLINTON defended Bush on that to Diane Sawyer) is shockingly in poor taste & ruined any valid point for me that Moore may have had against the war in Iraq. His tactics were disgusting, absolutely disgusting. This is from someone who voted for Gore in 2000, too.

Sorry - but you need to see BOTH DVD's before you decide, especially as a Christian, that Michael Moore is "brilliant" & "truthful". He made an effective argument against the greed in automotive companies & gun control, but should've stayed away from a hate-filled attack on a U.S. President STILL in office, about a war STILL in progress that our soldiers continue to bravely fight for.

Oh, well - it didn't work & the outrage may have even garnered Bush MORE votes as a result. The Lord works in mysterious ways. :thumbsup:
Well of course it was biased to make a point. Naturally any documentary maker is going to bias the film strongly in one direction to make the point. Michael Moore did not go into the Iraqi prisons to film, no - but he was simply trying to make the point that perhaps - just perhaps - Iraq was not the backwards, 3rd world, repressed, crumbling country the U.S. made it out to be before the war. And if this were true, how true was the U.S. in telling us how rotten of a dictator Saddam Hussein was? All those stories of torture, imprisonment, was it all really true? Was Saddam THAT bad? Again, I believe he was evil, but I do question the validity of the picture that was painted of Saddam in the U.S. media/government.

That's just one aspect of the film. But the basic facts still remain. Doesn't it strike you as just a *little* weird that Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton - one of the largest energy companies - and now he's VP of the U.S.? That Halliburton was handed noncompete contracts in Iraq? That he was previously friends with Bush? That Hallliburton subsidiaries were already doing business in Iraq before the war? That Cheney was previously Secretary of Defense during Gulf War 1? That Halliburton was accused of overcharging the government? Sorry, but there are just too many strange coincidences and happenstances here to simply pass it off as nonsense.

But I simply fail to understand the logic behind the attacks on Michael Moore. The people who bash his movie rarely cite any facts. All you hear is ad-hominem attacks and that the movie is simply a lie. I suppose that's all MM detractors have to say - he's just a huge liar, he hates Bush, and he hates America. And anyone who possibly likes his movie is quite the same.

About the dead Iraqi civilian scene, I don't remember how it cut so directly to the U.S. soldiers whipping it up. But many U.S. soldiers interviewed DID question why the heck they were there. A few even thought it was definitely for the oil. I DOUBT Michael Moore could have manipulated THAT. Some also agreed that there were no WMDs; others expalined how they felt about war in general. But I don't buy the argument really that Moore is trying to make the troops look bad. That would be like saying "COPS" makes police officers look bad. It doesn't hold water.

This kind of naivite is sad, really. Most people who criticize Fahrenheit 9/11 haven't even seen the film. They are afraid their world (and perhaps even their faith) would be ROCKED, and that they would be ostracized for any new views they would take on. The pyschology surrounding this is strong, very strong.

I did check out that other FahernHype website. I tried to view the trailer (slow connection, blah!) and was not very impressed. All I heard was refutations with no sources to back them up. And Zell Miller? The same crazy psychotic Zell Miller we saw at the Republican Convention? Gimme a break! Of course we know what he's going to say. Bring in the independent guys, then maybe I'll listen.

The very first thing the Republicans do when faced with opposition is discredit that opposition with personal attacks and falsehoods. Nowadays the Repubs don't even have to make much of an effort. Their citizen supporters do plenty for the cause.
 
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MikeMcK

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Scribbler said:
Will do. Is it Fiction or Non-Fiction?

I'll give you a hint:

When the movie was originally released to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for Oscar consideration, it was submitted as a documentary.

They made him take it back and re-submit it as a dramtic film.
 
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ContraMundum

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SuzQ said:
I know this isn't "baiting", is it? If so, I think you need to refrain - per the rules of Christian Forum.

Just having fun. Making a point too.

Also doesn't lend YOU much credence, either. My husband is a Socialist from Sweden,

Mycket bra! Jag tycker om det.

so to insinuate I believe we are at "war" with "Eurasia" is quite pointless (and a bit immature, maybe??).

It's a quote from a book.

Not that I want to unfairly continue a "battle of wits with the unarmed", folks, but apparently I need to justify NOT seeing either DVD, LOL! I didn't want to see Fahrenheit OR FahrenHYPE because although I'm conservative, I don't need to see either Michael Moore NOR Zell Miller rant & rave to help me choose the next President. I admire Ann Coulter's tenacity, but she doesn't speak for me, either. ;) I examine ALL sides, refer to FACTS, and supplement our media's "spin on the war" with non-U.S. media outlets (such as my husband's non-biased Swedish newspaper) that don't just tell the liberal side (CNN, MSN, CBS) or the conservative side (Fox News).

Bub-bye now! :wave:

That's great!
 
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DudeIRock

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nothing as to what he said has been debunked so dont say it has. How can it be. Did he get a fake video showing bush golfing after making a serious speech. was it a lie when bush (before 9/11) went on vacation half the time and did nothing for this country. when u have video its hard to debunk. And nuttin has been debunked. Bush is just a very unintelligent person. And Columbine was about targeting the emotions of people and showing the corruption of the business' and the IRA. How can the IRA go to a town after a little girl was killed and say not from my dead hands. I LOVE GUNs dont get me wrong but the IRA are just a bunch of a*******. it was also meant to show how messed up the media is by not showing us whats really going on in out town (meaning povert and people living in gethoes and traveling for 2 hours so they can afford the house and still work) they just try to instill fear into us so unless u know what ur talkin about (anybody saying it ws wrong) dont speak u soung kinda like bush. (unintelligent)
 
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SackLunch

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SuzQ said:
I know this isn't "baiting", is it? If so, I think you need to refrain - per the rules of Christian Forum. Also doesn't lend YOU much credence, either. My husband is a Socialist from Sweden, so to insinuate I believe we are at "war" with "Eurasia" is quite pointless (and a bit immature, maybe??).

Not that I want to unfairly continue a "battle of wits with the unarmed", folks, but apparently I need to justify NOT seeing either DVD, LOL! I didn't want to see Fahrenheit OR FahrenHYPE because although I'm conservative, I don't need to see either Michael Moore NOR Zell Miller rant & rave to help me choose the next President. I admire Ann Coulter's tenacity, but she doesn't speak for me, either. ;) I examine ALL sides, refer to FACTS, and supplement our media's "spin on the war" with non-U.S. media outlets (such as my husband's non-biased Swedish newspaper) that don't just tell the liberal side (CNN, MSN, CBS) or the conservative side (Fox News).

Bub-bye now! :wave:
Well at least we can agree about Ann Coulter. I don't care much for that woman. I personally think she is hindering the sharing of the Gospel by attacking and calling names. That's simply not very Christian-like. I mean really. "How to talk to a liberal if you MUST?" NOT NICE at all! Grrrrrr.

Anyhow, I hate to argue with you, Suz. But you say you take in all sides, and yet at the same time, you say you haven't watched either film. Why not? How can you make any kind of judgement if you haven't watched either one?

Again, this is the kind of thing I am growing weary of. People tend to throw out comments and come to conclusions without even LOOKING at the facts. This is especially troublesome amongst my conservative Christian collegues.

Personally the movie didn't interest me simply because I'm choosing my next President. I was interested because I want to know what's going on in our country and in our government. If there's a problem, I want to know about it. All Americans should know about it. Closing our eyes and ears only serves to further the agendas of the evildoers. It is the PEOPLE who need to wake up and see what's going on here. Because tomorrow, who knows - we could wake up in a totally different America.
 
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Scribbler

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DudeIRock said:
. How can the IRA go to a town after a little girl was killed and say not from my dead hands.

Easy...they didn't. The "cold Dead hands" speech was from an NRA (err, not IRA) rally a year later and 2000 miles away. Michael Moore spliced the footage to make it appear it occured just after the Columbine tragedy. Looks like he fooled you, friend. Shame about that, and the line forms at the rear.
 
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SuzQ

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I'm glad those of you who liked the movie enjoyed it. I'm just saying that before you get gun-ho that it's 100% accurate, balance his view with another that DEBUNKS about 99% of it.

SackLunch said:
Well of course it was biased to make a point. Naturally any documentary maker is going to bias the film strongly in one direction to make the point. Michael Moore did not go into the Iraqi prisons to film, no - but he was simply trying to make the point that perhaps - just perhaps - Iraq was not the backwards, 3rd world, repressed, crumbling country the U.S. made it out to be before the war.

Oh, yes, Iraq was the "land of dreams" under Saddam Hussein??? Ask the Olympic athletes that didn't bring home a medal how Iraq was NOT repressed or oppressed under Saddam. (They gave their interview in Sports Illustrated about 3 years ago from London because they FLED the country). Hmmm....whipping someone's back & dipping them in raw sewage to be sure it gets infected, as well as forcing tall athletes to stand for days in a room only 3 feet in height for punishment is justifiable to you??? Having it legal to beat a woman to death for not looking at the ground is justifiable to you? Gassing 30,000 Kurds (source: U.N. documents' report categorizing his actions as GENOCIDE, my friend) is ok?? No offense, but this is a great example of one-sideness - Talk about naivety? (sp?) Finally, Saddam, after 9/11, talking about participating in plans for an "organized" attack on the U.S. is ok? (source: Vladimir Putin & Russian Intelligence reports, which were released last year at this time to the media - mainly discussed in European papers, unfortunately.).

SackLunch said:
That's just one aspect of the film. But the basic facts still remain. Doesn't it strike you as just a *little* weird that Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton - one of the largest energy companies - and now he's VP of the U.S.? That Halliburton was handed noncompete contracts in Iraq? That he was previously friends with Bush? That Hallliburton subsidiaries were already doing business in Iraq before the war? That Cheney was previously Secretary of Defense during Gulf War 1? That Halliburton was accused of overcharging the government? Sorry, but there are just too many strange coincidences and happenstances here to simply pass it off as nonsense..

Doesn't it strike you a *little* weird that Kofi Annan's SON was in charge of the "Oil For Food" contracts when guess what? - No food, medication, or aid was ever given to suffering Iraqi families?? Doesn't it strike you a *little" weird or coincidental that bribes may have realistically went to German & French HIGH-ranking officials - the same countries vehemently against our invasion for some reason when Spain, Britain, & Austrailia were NOT???

Again, read some of the European papers, my friend. Most have English translations, too. I examine ALL sides before I make up my mind Bush is simply a monster, based on the word of a filmmaker in Hollywood.
 
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Scribbler

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Also funny was the edited footage he used just before that- "A girl crying-"They shot him because he was BLACK"...cut to Charlton Heston waving a gun in the air. Cheap shot on a man who marched for Civil Rights. Whether you like Heston or not, cheap shot.
 
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eldermike

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While we are on conspiracy theories:
I am thinking more and more (pun) that Moore is secretly a Republican and the point of making the film was to finish off the already dead left wing of the DNC. Knowing that the left side of the party would try in every way to make this stuff out to be true; and, knowing that most everyone else would see it correctly as lies. Add this to the list of bizarre talking points, the ones that ring right from the movie itself, and the net result is; you wake people up and motivate them to go vote these folks out of office.
Given the popular contemporary definition of truth, the one that measures selected results against a designed theory, my theory passes the test so it must be completely true.
Just my opinion.
 
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SuzQ

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eldermike said:
While we are on conspiracy theories:
I am thinking more and more (pun) that Moore is secretly a Republican and the point of making the film was to finish off the already dead left wing of the DNC. Knowing that the left side of the party would try in every way to make this stuff out to be true; and, knowing that most everyone else would see it correctly as lies. Add this to the list of bizarre talking points, the ones that ring right from the movie itself, and the net result is; you wake people up and motivate them to go vote these folks out of office.
Given the popular contemporary definition of truth, the one that measures selected results against a designed theory, my theory passes the test so it must be completely true.
Just my opinion.

LOL! I DID say earlier that this movie may have helped Bush garner more votes - you could be right. :sorry:

On a side note, I DID say Hillary defended Bush's actions on 9/11 when Kerry stupidly jumped on Moore's bandwagon in a vain attempt to gain points. Again, a plot to destroy the "izqierda" side of the Dems? OR, perhaps the Hillary-supporters helped with that, too, in hopes of 2008??? She likes to play a wolf, er, "moderate" in left clothes, don'tcha know.

**twilight zone music**
 
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SuzQ

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MikeMcK said:
Spoken like a true liberal: doesn't even know the difference between the IRA and the NRA but still believes he has the credibility to comment.

ROFL!! Well, the IRA DID carry weapons...until recently, anyway. We can easily confuse southern conservatives with Irish extremists, LOL!
 
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SackLunch

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SuzQ said:
I'm glad those of you who liked the movie enjoyed it. I'm just saying that before you get gun-ho that it's 100% accurate, balance his view with another that DEBUNKS about 99% of it.

Oh, yes, Iraq was the "land of dreams" under Saddam Hussein??? Ask the Olympic athletes that didn't bring home a medal how Iraq was NOT repressed or oppressed under Saddam. (They gave their interview in Sports Illustrated about 3 years ago from London because they FLED the country). Hmmm....whipping someone's back & dipping them in raw sewage to be sure it gets infected, as well as forcing tall athletes to stand for days in a room only 3 feet in height for punishment is justifiable to you??? Having it legal to beat a woman to death for not looking at the ground is justifiable to you? Gassing 30,000 Kurds (source: U.N. documents' report categorizing his actions as GENOCIDE, my friend) is ok?? No offense, but this is a great example of one-sideness - Talk about naivety? (sp?) Finally, Saddam, after 9/11, talking about participating in plans for an "organized" attack on the U.S. is ok? (source: Vladimir Putin & Russian Intelligence reports, which were released last year at this time to the media - mainly discussed in European papers, unfortunately.).

Doesn't it strike you a *little* weird that Kofi Annan's SON was in charge of the "Oil For Food" contracts when guess what? - No food, medication, or aid was ever given to suffering Iraqi families?? Doesn't it strike you a *little" weird or coincidental that bribes may have realistically went to German & French HIGH-ranking officials - the same countries vehemently against our invasion for some reason when Spain, Britain, & Austrailia were NOT???

Again, read some of the European papers, my friend. Most have English translations, too. I examine ALL sides before I make up my mind Bush is simply a monster, based on the word of a filmmaker in Hollywood.
Hoowee! We could go back and forth on this forever I suppose.

About Saddam - it's a typical political right wing response to exaggerate his evilness. I never said Iraq was "the land of dreams." But some of the things you've mentionend go on in the U.S. EVERY DAY, especially in prisons. But as is typical, you have overemotionalized the view of Saddam. And many of your statements are simply Republican talking points. Are we sure all of your points are 100% true? Did they REALLY happen? We will never know, because we weren't there. The gassing, though, was real, I do agree there.

This reminds me that Bush did the biggest flipflop of all when he realized there were, in fact, no WMDs. "Saddam was an evil dictator," he said, "and he had to go. The world is better off without Saddam." Well there's a heck of a lot of evil dictators in this world, but the fact is, we went into Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction, or, so we thought. So why, then DID we go into Iraq?

Another tactic of the Repubs is to change the subject, which you did quite nicely when I asked you about Cheney's Halliburton conflict of interest. If you want to know about AMERICA'S role in the oil for food scandal, check this out.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_01/02.03E.Hallib.Iraq.htm
 
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SuzQ

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Fantine said:
I also agree with Moore that Oprah would make an excellent President.

:doh: I don't think that's what he meant in that interview with Barbara Walters, LOL! He meant that the Dems need a CELEBRITY next time around if they want to get more votes, as he had finally admitted to the fact that Kerry was a HORRIBLE choice. She also asked him if his movie & The Passion were what people based their choice on. He answered, "Well, Barbara, GOD will win that one every time". :thumbsup: Two things he was finally HONEST about.

Oprah as President?? *shudders* No offense, she's a great talk show host, but this is the same woman who gave African girls lipstick last year as presents ("they should look pretty, too" was her reasoning), Stevie Wonder a ROLLS ROYCE for his birthday (um, ok???), and thinks beef is evil. If that were to happen, help us ALL! :eek:
 
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SackLunch

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MikeMcK said:
Spoken like a true liberal: doesn't even know the difference between the IRA and the NRA but still believes he has the credibility to comment.
Civility please! Let's not go into slapping the 'ol "liberal" label on people. Please keep that and personal attacks about someone's credibility out of this :)
 
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Harpuia

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I'm a conservative who enjoys a good Michael Moore documentary.

But Fahrenheit 9/11, when I saw it on DVD, was poorly done. He rushed it, didn't take as much time as he should like he did for Bowling for Columbine. There's nothing that tells me he was just trying to put as many Bush-bashing phrases as he could into 2 hours.

That's not a documentary, that's propaganda. Moore can do a lot better...
 
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Dark_Lite

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SackLunch said:
Oh brother...typical head in the sand response...Yeah, it's all fake and he's just a huge liar... ;)

Not to mention why one non-political man would go to such extremes to influence an election...

You probably don't want to go, but here is a website that explains in detail the facts presented in Moore's movie. And YES, he DOES list sources used, and YES, they ARE credible. :)

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16

Are you one of those people who thinks the pentagon was hit by a missile?
 
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