Star Wars, Samurai & Monomyth: Cool Seeing the Origins of the Film BEFORE you go to the New Film...

[Gxg (G²)]

Shalom

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It was my intention to check out the film this weekend with the family (then again for free with my friends) but took some time to go back/study up on the films (Geek mode). Indeed, the dynamics behind the film were epic enough when considering the origins of the actual story and how it was developed....as it had origins in Samurai culture

Star Wars was deeply impacted in its inception by Samurai Films. It really brings home the point that films are not just stories within a vaccum. They are global conversations and this is an excellent documentary pointing out the issue

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People have taken the Samurai aspect so seriously that they actually turned the characters into action figures...as seen in how Bandai Turned Boba Fett Into A Ronin and several others...

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And with the rest of the series, they also did Samurai presentations that were pretty stellar....if going here to Samurai Star Wars

Also, considering how much Japanese culture had a dynamic where it was not so much about good vs. evil as much as it was about Honor vs. Shame (very centered on revenge and the need to end blood feuds to restore balance), it's interesting to go back and re-watch the older trilogies from that perspective. Completely different way of seeing the films when considering how it was never just an empty Death Star and it was no one ever considers how many faceless folks were in the Empire, more in "Star Wars Has No Good Guys - The Federalist" and "9 Reasons The Jedi Are The Bad Guys In 'Star Wars". A lot of food for thought when considering the dynamic from the Empire's perspective before the Death Star was blown up.

Just like it is today with politics and wars started, fighting on any side will always cause people to bear arms against one another even when you have people on BOTH sides fighting and not even knowing fully how things went down. The Emperor came to power under the false impression he gave of the Jedi being 'terrorists of the Republic' and was applauded by the Republic before they gave him power. He engineered a war that tore the galaxy asunder. And at the end of it all, the Rebels saw no real issue bringing back all kinds of death and revenge on anyone working for him.

It's one large cycle of revenge....

And it's a cycle of revenge based on a Monomyth with how the Revenge is justified throughout the films in the name of the hero on his journey and leading to the salvation of the world...something others like
Joseph Campbell discussed in The Power of Myth (as seen here and here in David Wilcock: The Hero's Journey and Precession of the equinoxes and the presentation on Bill Moyers ).

​

When considering what happened this year with others being stirred to war in the Middle East or last year with the Ukraine and those protesting in how they handled themselves against a corrupt government, seeing the Star Wars films does make things interesting since the entire series is based on being opposite of that. Hard not to consider something one of the Fathers said when stating the following:

"If the peacemakers are they who do not contend one with another, but reconcile those that are at strife, they are rightly called the sons of God, seeing that was the chief employment of the only begotten Son, to reconcile things separated, to give peace to things at war."

St. John Chrysostom​

• Hattori Hanzo: Revenge is never a straight line. It's a forest, And like a forest it's easy to lose your way... To get lost... To forget where you came in.

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Just like it is today with politics and wars started, fighting on any side will always cause people to bear arms against one another even when you have people on BOTH sides fighting and not even knowing fully how things went down. The Emperor came to power under the false impression he gave of the Jedi being 'terrorists of the Republic' and was applauded by the Republic before they gave him power. He engineered a war that tore the galaxy asunder. And at the end of it all, the Rebels saw no real issue bringing back all kinds of death and revenge on anyone working for him.

It's one large cycle of revenge....

And it's a cycle of revenge based on a Monomyth with how the Revenge is justified throughout the films in the name of the hero on his journey and leading to the salvation of the world...something others like
Joseph Campbell discussed in The Power of Myth (as seen here and here in David Wilcock: The Hero's Journey and Precession of the equinoxes and the presentation on Bill Moyers ).

​

When considering what happened this year with others being stirred to war in the Middle East or last year with the Ukraine and those protesting in how they handled themselves against a corrupt government, seeing the Star Wars films does make things interesting since the entire series is based on being opposite of that. Hard not to consider something one of the Fathers said when stating the following:

"If the peacemakers are they who do not contend one with another, but reconcile those that are at strife, they are rightly called the sons of God, seeing that was the chief employment of the only begotten Son, to reconcile things separated, to give peace to things at war."

St. John Chrysostom​

• Hattori Hanzo: Revenge is never a straight line. It's a forest, And like a forest it's easy to lose your way... To get lost... To forget where you came in.

​

Concerning the dynamic with Hero's Narrative and how much it relies on binary ideas , one of the best reviews showing the exchanges between Campbell and Lucas can be found here in Mythic Discovery: Revisiting the Meeting between George and Joseph... and Star Wars Origins - Joseph Campbell and the Hero's Journey
(for excerpt):

​

We look to the stars and wonder. Light from infinite directions and distances meets our gaze. And within our “mythic imagination,” as Joseph Campbell described it, we begin to tell stories. As Campbell points out, the visual beauties that inspire a saga like Star Wars are derived as much from within us as it is outside. “The imagery is necessarily physical and thus apparently of outer space,” Campbell says, “The inherent connotation is always, however, psychological and metaphysical, which is to say, of inner space.” As we look to the stars, we are inherently reflected. It is what Campbell calls the “inner reaches of outer space.”

In 1984, Joseph Campbell came to the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, an architectural beauty rebuilt from the Panama-Pacific International Exposition of 1915, and near the current location of Lucasfilm’s headquarters. The iconic dome had been constructed to reflect the classical styles of ancient Rome and Greece, and evokes emotion as if it could be an archetype of myth itself. It was an apt setting for Campbell to lead discussions on the inner reaches of outer space.

George Lucas was in the audience. Though he had long admired and studied Campbell back to the time of his early drafts of Star Wars, he had yet to meet the man who he would call, “my Yoda.” San Francisco certainly wasn’t the swampy planet of Dagobah. The meeting would in fact be the opposite of Master Yoda and young Luke Skywalker’s. This time it was the master who was to learn just how pivotal his teachings could be for the apprentice.


The master and apprentice both learn from each other.

“[…] Outer space is within inasmuch as the laws of space are within us; outer and inner space are the same. We know, furthermore, that we have actually been born from space,” Campbell told audiences in San Francisco. He continued to describe the “wonderland of myth,” where an almost circular path of inspiration moves between that which we see and that which we imagine. “From the outer world the senses carry images to mind, which do not become myth, however, until they’re transformed by fusion with accordant insights, awakened as imagination from the inner world of the body.” As Yoda tells Luke in The Empire Strikes Back, “Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.” The light of the stars is fully within us.

After the mesmerizing discussions, Lucas was introduced to Campbell via their mutual friend, scientist and Nobel laureate Barbara McClintock. Though they did not connect at first words, as McClintock would remember to Campbell’s biographer, “I got them sitting together, but Joe was holding court like he would…There was a young man there, David Abrams, the only true magician I’ve ever known in my life… I called David over and said, ‘See if you can get these two talking to each other.’ David went over and did a trick…it involved putting George’s hand on Joe’s hand and that was it.”


Fateful Meetings

The spark had been ignited and a friendship had begun. Campbell and Lucas took a liking to each other. They enjoyed discussing ideas of mythology, and in particular the influence of Campbell’s The Hero With a Thousand Faces on Lucas’ filmmaking. Their relationship blossomed over the coming years, though surprisingly, Campbell had yet to see any of the Star Wars films.

A few years after their first meeting, the time finally came for Lucas to show Campbell his work. Lucas would tell Campbell’s biographers: “[…] At one point I talked about Star Wars, and he’d heard about Star Wars. I said, ‘Would you be interested at all in seeing it?’ At this point I’d finished all three of them. He said, ‘I’ll see all three of them.’ I said, ‘Would you like to see one a day?’ because he was going to be here for around a week. ‘No, no, I want to see them all at once.’”

And so Campbell, along with his wife Jean, came to Marin County north of San Francisco. It was on a Sunday when Lucas took the Campbells to the recently finished Skywalker Ranch. Lucas remembered, “I showed them one in the morning [A New Hope], and we had lunch. I showed another one in the afternoon [The Empire Strikes Back], then we had dinner. Then I showed another one in the evening [Return of the Jedi]. It was actually the first time anybody, I think, had ever seen all three of them together at one time!”

Their mutual friend, Barbara McClintock, joined in for the third film, and she remembered the moment after it had ended. “It was just us and George. It was very quiet in the dark, and Joe said, ‘You know, I thought real art had stopped with Picasso, Joyce, and Mann. Now I know it hasn’t.’”​

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I went to see "The Force Awakens" with my bar of expectations raised to a very forgiving level: "not as bad as the prequels".
For more than ten years, I tried hard to see only the best in George Lucas's take on the Republic era, but even repeated viewings could not reconcile me with those films. ("Revenge of the Sith" ALMOST makes it, ad is probaby the only film in that trilogy I'd willingly watch again at this point.)

But "The Force Awakens" exceeded my expectations. It's not a perfect film by any means, and you can tell that they cut out between 30-60 minutes in order to give the finished product a more marketable length, but it's GOOD. Genuinely and satisfyingly good. Even more importantly: It's STAR WARS, genuinely conveying the "feel" of the old trilogy that had always been missing from the prequels. Sure, they overdid it with the fan service at certain points, and the galaxy certainly did not need some of the most obvious "hommages" to the classical trilogy. But it's eminently enjoyable, and really its own animal.
Lucas wanted his trilogies to "rhyme" but never really managed to convey this apart from visual cues that often made very limited sense ("why does Chancellor Palpatine sit on a throne here?" "Oh, that droid control ship is supposed to be a stand-in for the death star, and "press random buttons"-boy is basically Luke").

To say anything more would be spoiler-territory, but Lawrence Kasdan has done a good job. Relatable, complex characters instead of poop humour-sidekicks and wooden cutouts; emotionally invested fight scenes instead of lightsaber ballet against quasi-extras; and excellent dialogue instead of whatever it was the prequels threw at us ("I don't like sand"/ "Love has blinded you?")

 

[gord44]

Things I like about the new film....

- TIE Fighters with rear gunners, shields and a hyperdrive! As an old TIE Fighter pilot back in the DOS days, I really appreciated that.

- The First Order. An interesting group. Not a Galactic Power, but kinda almost like for lack of a better term 'ISIS'. A military force built on myth and religion and lead by zealots. Also interesting, although not covered well in the movie (but explained more in the book which I am listening to now on Audible), is that the New Republic doesn't really see them as much of a threat at the point the new movie starts. The New Republic went through a massive demilitarization after the Battle of Jakku and wants to focus more on trade then fighting some upstart quasi Imperial force. Leia on the other hand sees them as such a threat she broke away from the New Republic and formed the resistance.

- Kylo Ren's lightsaber. I like how it's not perfect. This isn't a Sith Lord. He's kinda an amateur when it comes to the force but it works so well with his character. His lightsaber flickers and looks like it will go out. In the book it's called a 'butcher's blade' or an executioners weapon.

 

[gord44]

Cool post as well G. I like the samurai stuff!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Things I like about the new film....

- TIE Fighters with rear gunners, shields and a hyperdrive! As an old TIE Fighter pilot back in the DOS days, I really appreciated that.

- The First Order. An interesting group. Not a Galactic Power, but kinda almost like for lack of a better term 'ISIS'. A military force built on myth and religion and lead by zealots. Also interesting, although not covered well in the movie (but explained more in the book which I am listening to now on Audible), is that the New Republic doesn't really see them as much of a threat at the point the new movie starts. The New Republic went through a massive demilitarization after the Battle of Jakku and wants to focus more on trade then fighting some upstart quasi Imperial force. Leia on the other hand sees them as such a threat she broke away from the New Republic and formed the resistance.

I actually never considered the dynamic of the First Order being more akin to ISIS than anything else, which made sense when I did more research and saw how the First Order hid itself in the Outer Rim territories in Star Wars and was made up of remnants of the Imperial Order and other factions. And with the Resistance formed, it makes sense since Leia saw what was coming for everyone with the First Order. There are some interesting reviews on the matter elsewhere, of course, that were very insightful on the matter.

• What The Hell Is The Story With The Resistance A

As said there:

Why do we need some context? Because the last time we saw the Star Wars galaxy the Empire had fallen - see the celebrations in the streets of Coruscant in the Special Edition - but now we're right back in what looks exactly, completely like the political context of the first Star Wars movie. There's an evil Nazi-like Empire running around and there are good guy Rebels in a hidden base. Not only is like nothing changed since Jedi, it's like we went back in time to the first film. But it's not quite so simple.

A little history: the Galactic Civil War didn't exactly end with the Battle of Endor. While that was the decisive turning point, it seems to have gone on for one more year, with the final final battle happening at Jakku. The Rebels formed the New Republic while the shattered remains of the Empire limped out to the Outer Rim, where you can easily disappear. It's wild space out there. Think of it like the Nazis who escaped to Argentina.

The Rebels set up the New Republic and, for reasons that escape me, established their capitol in the Hosnian System, on Hosnian Prime. While I get that Palpatine probably stunk up Coruscant, that planet was the seat of power of the Old Republic as well - I don't quite know why they moved. Maybe it's so that when Starkiller Base blows up a planet it isn't Coruscant, even though the planet blown up in The Force Awakens looks, for all intents and purposes, like Coruscant.

While the New Republic was getting back into the business of being a democratic society - ie, a lot of bickering and fighting and stalemates and poltical nonsense - the shards of the Empire were reforming on the Outer Rim under the guidance of the mysterious Supreme Leader Snoke. Most in the New Republic ignore the growing menace of the First Order, but not Leia - after all, the Organas have a history of seeing bad [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] coming down the pike. She pleads with the New Republic to deal with the FIrst Order, but everybody thinks she's overreacting; finally she's able to convince the powers-that-be to let her go off and lead a small resistance group which she then imaginatively names The Resistance. Basically this is like when the US sends advisors and some money and weapons to support an insurgent group in a communist (or now Islamic) country. The New Republic isn't fighting the war - the logo of The Resistance is pointedly the same as the logo of the Rebel Alliance, not The New Republic (which, to be fair, is pretty similar anyway) - but they're kind of fighting a proxy war led by Leia.

That's the basic set up; when The First Order blows up Hosnian Prime it's basically like a terrorist group going after the US because it has supported fighters in their home region. It's an extravagant move, of course, but The First Order, influenced greatly by the Empire, seems to think big. ​

And as another noted:

Here's the situation: After the events of Return of the Jedi, the decapitated Empire collapses into a fragmented series of successor regimes lead by various Moffs. The Alliance to Restore the Republic announces the formation of a New Republic, absorbs a number of star systems, and signs a peace treaty delineating borders with remaining Imperial leftovers.

Over time, at least some part of the former Empire becomes the First Order, which the Republic decides it wants to topple. Republic stateswoman Leia Organa establishes the Resistance inside First Order borders, which operates as a nominally independent insurgent group rather than an official branch of the Republic military. The Republic is supporting the insurgency — specifically, General Hux suggests in the film, with money and weapons. However, there's no in-text evidence that uniformed Republic military forces are directly engaging the First Order.

This is all spelled out in tie-in books and video games (both io9 and BirthMoviesDeathhave helpful summaries) rather than stated explicitly in The Force Awakens, which makes the movie's action hard to follow.

That leaves us with a situation that's quite familiar from the real world: An insurgency, supported by a neighboring power, is waging a guerrilla campaign against a local regime. Consider a few famous parallels in the real world (these aren't moral equivalents, merely strategically similar):

• Syrian rebels, supported with money and weapons from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states, fight to topple Bashar al-Assad's regime based in Damascus.
• The Viet Cong, backed by the North Vietnamese government, fight a guerrilla war to topple South Vietnam's government.
• Shia militia organizations in Iraq, given money and IEDs by Iran, battle against the American-led occupation regime after the 2003 invasion.

This is probably why the First Order sees both the Republic and the Resistance as threats so dangerous that it's worth developing a superweapon to exterminate them. A 2009 paper by Yale University's Jason Lyall and West Point Col. Isaiah Wilson III found that governments are 87 percent more likely to lose when fighting insurgents backed by foreign powers than they are when facing insurgents without a foreign patron.

Though Lyall and Wilson's sample comes entirely from our galaxy, the logic behind it applies directly to one far, far away. External support gives the Resistance a base; if they're being pursued by First Order starships, they could flee to Republic space and the protection of the New Republic fleet. Moreover, the Republic has a huge tax base it can use to fund the Resistance, which means the Resistance can purchase a hell of a lot more X-Wings from Incom that it would be able to otherwise.

So from Supreme Leader Snoke's point of view, the distinction between the Resistance and the Republic is basically meaningless: They're both working to topple him.​

And for other places for discussion:

• The First Order Are The (Anti)-Heroes Of 'The Force Awakens'
  
  
  
  
• 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens': Official History Of ...
  
• Everything We Know About Star Wars' Post-Retu
• Star Wars: The Force Awakens — what's up with the Republic and the Resistance?
• Lucasfilm Reveals Huge Force Connection for First Order in Star Wars: The Force Awakens
• Why the First Order in 'Star Wars' is fascist, evil — and far smarter than you think

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

- Kylo Ren's lightsaber. I like how it's not perfect. This isn't a Sith Lord. He's kinda an amateur when it comes to the force but it works so well with his character. His lightsaber flickers and looks like it will go out. In the book it's called a 'butcher's blade' or an executioners weapon.

I really enjoyed the look of Ren's lightsaber, as it seemed to make more sense with its impact as the film went on. I didn't know exactly what it'd be like when I saw the previews but it has an elegant feel to it. And it's interesting to consider the unique light saber when seeing how J.J. Abrams has confirmed that Star Wars villain Kylo Ren is NOT a Sith, instead part of the Nazi-inspired First Order....so the blade would have to be distinct. It was very beautiful in action..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Cool post as well G. I like the samurai stuff!

Glad you were blessed by the post. Seeing the history of the Samurai and Star Wars really helped to make the series all the more distinct as being one of the most visually impacting series I've ever come across

[/QUOTE]

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I went to see "The Force Awakens" with my bar of expectations raised to a very forgiving level: "not as bad as the prequels".
For more than ten years, I tried hard to see only the best in George Lucas's take on the Republic era, but even repeated viewings could not reconcile me with those films. ("Revenge of the Sith" ALMOST makes it, ad is probaby the only film in that trilogy I'd willingly watch again at this point.)

But "The Force Awakens" exceeded my expectations. It's not a perfect film by any means, and you can tell that they cut out between 30-60 minutes in order to give the finished product a more marketable length, but it's GOOD. Genuinely and satisfyingly good. Even more importantly: It's STAR WARS, genuinely conveying the "feel" of the old trilogy that had always been missing from the prequels. Sure, they overdid it with the fan service at certain points, and the galaxy certainly did not need some of the most obvious "hommages" to the classical trilogy. But it's eminently enjoyable, and really its own animal.
Lucas wanted his trilogies to "rhyme" but never really managed to convey this apart from visual cues that often made very limited sense ("why does Chancellor Palpatine sit on a throne here?" "Oh, that droid control ship is supposed to be a stand-in for the death star, and "press random buttons"-boy is basically Luke").

To say anything more would be spoiler-territory, but Lawrence Kasdan has done a good job. Relatable, complex characters instead of poop humour-sidekicks and wooden cutouts; emotionally invested fight scenes instead of lightsaber ballet against quasi-extras; and excellent dialogue instead of whatever it was the prequels threw at us ("I don't like sand"/ "Love has blinded you?")

It's interesting you noted that, as I was curious as to what the film would signify and yet it really exceeded my expectations. I actually felt it was better the second time I saw the film, as the feel for the main character and her story line were truly beautiful. It really felt like I was actually watching something in the same vein as the ORIGINAL trilogy but still updated. Very complex characters and a story line that doesn't make things as black and white as you'd normally expect them to be...

 

[gord44]

I actually never considered the dynamic of the First Order being more akin to ISIS than anything else, which made sense when I did more research and saw how the First Order hid itself in the Outer Rim territories in Star Wars and was made up of remnants of the Imperial Order and other factions. And with the Resistance formed, it makes sense since Leia saw what was coming for everyone with the First Order. There are some interesting reviews on the matter elsewhere, of course, that were very insightful on the matter.

• What The Hell Is The Story With The Resistance A

As said there:

Why do we need some context? Because the last time we saw the Star Wars galaxy the Empire had fallen - see the celebrations in the streets of Coruscant in the Special Edition - but now we're right back in what looks exactly, completely like the political context of the first Star Wars movie. There's an evil Nazi-like Empire running around and there are good guy Rebels in a hidden base. Not only is like nothing changed since Jedi, it's like we went back in time to the first film. But it's not quite so simple.

A little history: the Galactic Civil War didn't exactly end with the Battle of Endor. While that was the decisive turning point, it seems to have gone on for one more year, with the final final battle happening at Jakku. The Rebels formed the New Republic while the shattered remains of the Empire limped out to the Outer Rim, where you can easily disappear. It's wild space out there. Think of it like the Nazis who escaped to Argentina.

The Rebels set up the New Republic and, for reasons that escape me, established their capitol in the Hosnian System, on Hosnian Prime. While I get that Palpatine probably stunk up Coruscant, that planet was the seat of power of the Old Republic as well - I don't quite know why they moved. Maybe it's so that when Starkiller Base blows up a planet it isn't Coruscant, even though the planet blown up in The Force Awakens looks, for all intents and purposes, like Coruscant.

While the New Republic was getting back into the business of being a democratic society - ie, a lot of bickering and fighting and stalemates and poltical nonsense - the shards of the Empire were reforming on the Outer Rim under the guidance of the mysterious Supreme Leader Snoke. Most in the New Republic ignore the growing menace of the First Order, but not Leia - after all, the Organas have a history of seeing bad [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] coming down the pike. She pleads with the New Republic to deal with the FIrst Order, but everybody thinks she's overreacting; finally she's able to convince the powers-that-be to let her go off and lead a small resistance group which she then imaginatively names The Resistance. Basically this is like when the US sends advisors and some money and weapons to support an insurgent group in a communist (or now Islamic) country. The New Republic isn't fighting the war - the logo of The Resistance is pointedly the same as the logo of the Rebel Alliance, not The New Republic (which, to be fair, is pretty similar anyway) - but they're kind of fighting a proxy war led by Leia.

That's the basic set up; when The First Order blows up Hosnian Prime it's basically like a terrorist group going after the US because it has supported fighters in their home region. It's an extravagant move, of course, but The First Order, influenced greatly by the Empire, seems to think big. ​

And as another noted:

Here's the situation: After the events of Return of the Jedi, the decapitated Empire collapses into a fragmented series of successor regimes lead by various Moffs. The Alliance to Restore the Republic announces the formation of a New Republic, absorbs a number of star systems, and signs a peace treaty delineating borders with remaining Imperial leftovers.

Over time, at least some part of the former Empire becomes the First Order, which the Republic decides it wants to topple. Republic stateswoman Leia Organa establishes the Resistance inside First Order borders, which operates as a nominally independent insurgent group rather than an official branch of the Republic military. The Republic is supporting the insurgency — specifically, General Hux suggests in the film, with money and weapons. However, there's no in-text evidence that uniformed Republic military forces are directly engaging the First Order.

This is all spelled out in tie-in books and video games (both io9 and BirthMoviesDeathhave helpful summaries) rather than stated explicitly in The Force Awakens, which makes the movie's action hard to follow.

That leaves us with a situation that's quite familiar from the real world: An insurgency, supported by a neighboring power, is waging a guerrilla campaign against a local regime. Consider a few famous parallels in the real world (these aren't moral equivalents, merely strategically similar):

• Syrian rebels, supported with money and weapons from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states, fight to topple Bashar al-Assad's regime based in Damascus.
• The Viet Cong, backed by the North Vietnamese government, fight a guerrilla war to topple South Vietnam's government.
• Shia militia organizations in Iraq, given money and IEDs by Iran, battle against the American-led occupation regime after the 2003 invasion.

This is probably why the First Order sees both the Republic and the Resistance as threats so dangerous that it's worth developing a superweapon to exterminate them. A 2009 paper by Yale University's Jason Lyall and West Point Col. Isaiah Wilson III found that governments are 87 percent more likely to lose when fighting insurgents backed by foreign powers than they are when facing insurgents without a foreign patron.

Though Lyall and Wilson's sample comes entirely from our galaxy, the logic behind it applies directly to one far, far away. External support gives the Resistance a base; if they're being pursued by First Order starships, they could flee to Republic space and the protection of the New Republic fleet. Moreover, the Republic has a huge tax base it can use to fund the Resistance, which means the Resistance can purchase a hell of a lot more X-Wings from Incom that it would be able to otherwise.

So from Supreme Leader Snoke's point of view, the distinction between the Resistance and the Republic is basically meaningless: They're both working to topple him.​

And for other places for discussion:

• The First Order Are The (Anti)-Heroes Of 'The Force Awakens'
  
  
  
  
• 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens': Official History Of ...
• Everything We Know About Star Wars' Post-Retu
• Star Wars: The Force Awakens — what's up with the Republic and the Resistance?
• Lucasfilm Reveals Huge Force Connection for First Order in Star Wars: The Force Awakens
• Why the First Order in 'Star Wars' is fascist, evil — and far smarter than you think

​

Thanks for the info. Good reads! Glad I wasn't the only one wondering more about the political climate in the new movie.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for the info. Good reads! Glad I wasn't the only one wondering more about the political climate in the new movie.

I am still a bit perplexed at the political climate of the movie and wondering what it is that they will do with it. In my understanding, I wonder as to whether it would ever be the case that someone simply TAKE OVER THE REMNANTS of the Empire but use them as a force for good...as the Republic vs. Empire concept does not seem to be consistent many times when seeing damage done on both sides...just as it has been with the Rise of the Sith and Sith Empires in opposition to the Jedi. And there's no "Good or Bad" with the Force anyhow, as it concerns my understanding.

At this point, I'd really not mind having a Galactic Emperor who was simply a righteous Jedi instead of this eternal battling that has always done damage to the Republic. It's not as if there are no Republics where there is an Emperor overseeing things and seeking to bring others into unison - as shared before elsewhere here:

I'd lean toward the version of anarchism that is geared toward not needing governments imposed on others in order to truly survive and thrive as a society since it has been done before where others (changed in their thinking) treated others properly - and I'd also lean toward the view that advocates for resistance toward oppression in any form (more discussed here and Iconocast Episode 30: James H. Cone and here in Christian Anarchism: A Revolutionary Reading of Scripture and Experimental Theology: Christian Anarchism & Atheism ). Yet I don't agree with the ideology that those in power are automatically a negative....

​

Many of the Barbarian societies were what you'd call Anarchists in many respects - with others in history going so far as to suggest that even Christ Himself supported certain forms of anarchism - in light of the fact that the purpose and goal of anarchism is to separate ourselves from the violent state which constantly uses force to murder and oppress people all over the world for the crime of not agreeing with its moral values....anarcho-pacifist systems come to mind. Christ did not follow the religious rulers in his day and there seem to be several instances where the governing ways & authorities didn't have his full support. One of such the currency "But to satisfy them..." (Matthew 17:27) and "Who's face do you see..." (Matthew 22) - and "The only authority you have over me is that which my father gave you" (John 18-19), as that was sort of a circumvention of governing authority. Christ said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's", clearly demarcating a separation between the two and an indifference between them. ...and when the State was wrong, he had no issue speaking out against it and challenging it in multiple ways - in the same way that Anarchists do.

And I do feel it's possible that one can be both an Orthodox individual and an Anarchist (more in Russian orthodox anarchism in the 21st century ). In my mind, it'd be no different than when CHristians were deemed "atheists" by the Roman State for not worshiping their gods or supporting the monarchy when it was in idolatry - with it being striking that early Christians were in fact called atheists because they refused to participate in the "religion" of the day, with the followers of Jesus being blamed for Rome's woesand how Justin responded to that....and yet even being willing to be labeled as "atheists" for not worshiping the Roman gods or the Emperor, they understood that accepting being seen as atheists did not mean automatically that faith in God was up for grabs. But they had no problem with accepting the title when it was in its proper nuance...

And the same can go for anarchy being a term believers can accept. Of course, , there are differing variations of anarchist thought. For a nuanced look on civilization and anarchy, one may go either here or here:

Rethinking Civilization - Crash Course World History 201 - YouTube​

Others are of the mindset that it's okay to be anarchist in the sense that one is for a primitive style of live (agricultural, simple, no worship of the state, etc.) that other cultures had

There was an interesting review on the matter that I came across which seemed to suggest that it was not possible - as seen in Seraphim's Rose "Youth of the Apocalypse and the Last True Rebellion" and NIHILISM : The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age where he claimed that all forms of anarchism were automatically based in the spirit of Nihilism and violence Others have echoed his thoughts on how monarchy is the natural order man was meant to live - as seen in MUST AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN BE A MONARCHIST? (Written by Vladimir Moss) and Biblical Monarchy and the book of Judges | The Orthodox Life

Others who have accepted that God can appoint Orthodox Monarchs and yet feel their authority is not absolute/above being challenged would fall under the category of what's known as Anarcho-Monarchism - people that "believe in the existence of a King or leader, but advocate this leader as a voluntary individual whose sole existence is meant to represent a sense of celebration and kinship in the souls of the men" - and if you violated the people, you were no longer supported without challenge. In the system of Anarcho-Monarchism, any relationship with the king would be completely voluntary in nature rather than forced upon others simply because of his being King, In example, if you wanted to show him monetary support, you would do so because you want to and because of how he connects others with the community - in the same way that kings and leaders in the Old Testament had to be in line with God's Laws per Deuteronomy 17 in order to be valid and could not oppress the people with God's Blessing. Anarcho-Monarchism isanthropologically proven and it exists in the real world as expressed by the theocratic Papacy and the former caesaropapist Byzantine Empire - and the Catholic Church (separate from the papal states) can be seen as a worldwide Anarcho-Monarchy, as is the Eastern Orthodox Church.

• Anarcho-Monarchism | David Bentley Hart | First Things

• Toward a Pansemiotic Politics: The Wind in the Willows and Our Nixon |

• • The Young Monarchist: Anarcho-Monarchism - the Details
  • Fourth of July Reflection: Holy Kingship and Ecology | Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy

Of course, others have the mindset that advocating for living under allegiance to the Lord doesn't automatically mean having a monarchy that is equivalent with the State - similar to how Native Americans and other Indigenous Peoplegroups operated when it came to believing in one Supreme Being (Great Spirit) over all and yet having a very simple lifestyle that was based in the anarchy mindset...and yet being distinct from other forms of anarchy that were advocated by others like Marx which ofte neglected groups who were impacted by colonial thoughts or imperialism (more shared in Anti-Colonial Anarchism vs Decolonization | Unsettling America).

Within the world of Star Wars, this has actually happened....although it became more so an Empire based on a Council. This occurred in the original extended universe of Star Wars before Disney took over and had the new episodes be the main cannon (more here, here , here and here / here if wanting to see the The Star Wars Expanded Universe Timeline ) - but specifically, at one point they merge the Jedi and the Galactic Empire and other factions into one force. Very impressive...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Cool post as well G. I like the samurai stuff!

Were you previously aware of the Samurai aspect before?

 

[gord44]

I wonder as to whether it would ever be the case that someone simply TAKE OVER THE REMNANTS of the Empire but use them as a force for good.

Possibly. Technically the Empire and Republic are at peace after the Treaty of Jakku.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Possibly. Technically the Empire and Republic are at peace after the Treaty of Jakku.

When did that happen? Had no idea

 

[gord44]

Were you previously aware of the Samurai aspect before?

No, but I can totally see it now! Makes me want to go play Shogun Total War!

 

[gord44]

When did that happen? Had no idea

After the Battle of Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi the New Republic and remnants of the Empire fought on for a while. Eventually the bulk of the Imperial Fleet was located in orbit around Jakku and the New Republic fleet attacked them. Huge battle and the Empire was defeated. This is 20 years before the new movie and all that junk at Jakku is what's left from that battle.

Soundly defeated, what is left of the Empire signed a peace treaty with the New Republic. Basically the Imperials could exist, but couldn't cause any trouble. In truth the New Republic knew they didn't have the resources to completely destroy all of the 'Empire' so peace was made. Then the New Republic massively demilitarized.

The First Order is kinda a fringe group that wasn't involved in all that. They kept quiet in a corner of the galaxy and built up their strength under the nose of the New Republic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No, but I can totally see it now! Makes me want to go play Shogun Total War!

That's one of those games that will never lose its edge Of course, I'd personally be for Dynasty Warriors

 

[Gxg (G²)]

After the Battle of Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi the New Republic and remnants of the Empire fought on for a while. Eventually the bulk of the Imperial Fleet was located in orbit around Jakku and the New Republic fleet attacked them. Huge battle and the Empire was defeated. This is 20 years before the new movie and all that junk at Jakku is what's left from that battle.

Soundly defeated, what is left of the Empire signed a peace treaty with the New Republic. Basically the Imperials could exist, but couldn't cause any trouble. In truth the New Republic knew they didn't have the resources to completely destroy all of the 'Empire' so peace was made. Then the New Republic massively demilitarized.

The First Order is kinda a fringe group that wasn't involved in all that. They kept quiet in a corner of the galaxy and built up their strength under the nose of the New Republic.

The Battle of Jakku seems fascinating and would have been amazing if that was in the film at some point for context.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

After the Battle of Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi the New Republic and remnants of the Empire fought on for a while. Eventually the bulk of the Imperial Fleet was located in orbit around Jakku and the New Republic fleet attacked them. Huge battle and the Empire was defeated. This is 20 years before the new movie and all that junk at Jakku is what's left from that battle.

Soundly defeated, what is left of the Empire signed a peace treaty with the New Republic. Basically the Imperials could exist, but couldn't cause any trouble. In truth the New Republic knew they didn't have the resources to completely destroy all of the 'Empire' so peace was made. Then the New Republic massively demilitarized.

The First Order is kinda a fringe group that wasn't involved in all that. They kept quiet in a corner of the galaxy and built up their strength under the nose of the New Republic.

Sounds a lot like modern day scenarios where 'peace' really is not true peace because of the fact that it was not made based on changed minds....and instead based on being forced into position. And it makes sense that the First Order is separate from all of that as a fringe group.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The First Order is kinda a fringe group that wasn't involved in all that. They kept quiet in a corner of the galaxy and built up their strength under the nose of the New Republic.

It'd be wild if the First Order ended up being seen as the ones who were right the entire time....