St. Justin Martyr Described Sunday Worship

[Stravinsk]

Interesting. 'On the first of the week'

The Torah requires that Jews count the days after passover until the Feast of Weeks 50 days later. Shavuot it is called; literally 'weeks'.

On the first of counting of the feast of weeks?

"Protos" is the Greek word for "first", it remains that today just as it did in the Koine Greek of the NT. It is, by definition, an *ordinal* number -indicating order or place, and it is used consistantly as such throughout the NT.

"Mia" is the Greek word for "one" , it remains that today just as it did in the Koine Greek of the NT. It is, by definition, a *cardinal* number - indicating size or quantity, and it is used consistantly as such throughout the NT.

The word "day" is not in Mia twn Sabbatwn. It is added because of the Greek grammatical requirement of Feminine adjectives modifying Femine nouns. "of Sabbaths" (Genetive and Neuter) cannot be modified by it, therefore "mia"(one) must modify a feminine noun. And thus we have:

One(not first)[day] of the Sabbaths.

The meaning of this is clarified by my comments at the very bottom of the page in the link I provided.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

There are some denominations that read Acts 20:7 as a proof that the "Lord's Supper" should be taken each Sunday morning! First notice that this was after the Days of Unleavened Bread (verse 6). Paul was preaching a farewell meeting, not on Sunday morning, but on Saturday night. It was after midnight (verse 7) that they broke bread because they were hungry. When they "had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day," Paul departed.
So this was just an ordinary meal!
The same expression "break bread" is found in Acts 27:34-35. "Wherefore I pray you to take some meat . . . he took bread . . . and when he had broken it, he began to eat." Also Acts 2:46: "And breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness." This could not possibly have been the "Lord's Supper" or, more properly, Passover, because Paul says that if we take it to satisfy our hunger we take it to our condemnation (I Corinthians 11:34). In that day, everyone "broke bread" at ordinary meals, because they did not have the kind of bread that we slice. Jesus broke bread because it was at the Passover supper, while eating a meal.​

Herbert W. Armstrong (1892-1986)

If you read Acts 20:5-6 it says
"These man, going ahead, awaited for us at Troas. But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days, joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days."

Passover was celebrated on the 10th-14th of the First month (Jewish Calendar) Exodus 12: 3, 6. So they celebrate that day for about 5 days.

If you read verse 6 you can see an established timeline, see how it says "after the Days of the Unleavened Bread" then it says "and in five days, joined them at Troas" then it says "we stayed seven days"..

verse 7
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

As you can see they came together and broke bread even after the Days of the Unleavened Bread

"depart the next day"
Verse 13 continues on describing the Journey that the men took.
"Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos,...." So they are traveling from Troas to Assos, so we can conclude that the men are in their last day in Troas, because the ending in verse 6 said "at Troas, where we stayed seven days."


And as for "breaking bread simply mean eating a meal",
The bible does use breaking bread as sometimes referring to eating a meal and sometimes referring to the Lord's supper and depending on context it tells you which is which (since I do cannot read Greek, I have to rely on context). But 1 Corinthians 10:15-17 shed light on "breaking bread"

15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.

This is what Paul tells the Corinthian church before he corrects them about the Lord's Supper in Chapter 11. And one of the reasons why it is so significant we we talk about the breaking of bread is (and I know you already know this but I'll say it anyway) because Jesus' breaking of the bread.

Now, this is when they were celebrating passover
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." Then he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

 

[stranger]

Beginning at Passover, seven days of unleavened bread ...

Exodus 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Beginning at Passover, seven days of unleavened bread ...

Exodus 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Acts 20:5-6
These men, going ahead, waited for us at Troas. But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days joined them at Troas, where we stayed seven days.

Lets look at the timeline

They celebrated Passover from the 10th to the 14th of the first month. In Exodus they are told to eat the unleavened bread during the feast, "Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it." (Exodus 12:8). In Exodus it is command them to continue to eat the unleavened bread for seven days, they are asked to eat the bread until the the 21st of that month. "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening" (Exodus 12:18).

Going back to Acts 20:6, it said But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread[/]. So the men were probably on the ship eating the unleavened bread. They now have two days left eating the unleavened bread.

Now, they met the men in Troas and stayed for seven days; and in five days joined them at Troas, where we stayed seven days. So the command of eating in the unleavened bread would have ended on the second day the man were staying in Troas. But they still talking about breaking the bread together (and we see in Matthew, that the phrase "breaking of the bread" was what was described when Christ was establishing the Lord's supper).

Now, the reason why we can't say that "the first day of the week could be part of them taking the unleavened bread", one is that the unleavened bread taking in the Passover is not described that way. And two, we are told that they are going to depart the next day to a different place other than Troas and it is already established that they were in Troas for seven days.

Their journey continues...
Acts 20:7
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."
Because it says "ready to depart the next day" we see that this is the last day in Troas, because verse 13 continues their journey

Acts 20:13,16
"Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had given orders, intending himself to go on foot.....For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentacost..."

Pentacost is the "Feast of the weeks".
Deuteronomy 16:9-10
"You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain. Then you shall keep the Feast of Weeks to the LORD your God with the tribute of a freewill offering from your hand, which you shall give as the LORD your God blessed you." So, it seems from the time they finish the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, whenever they "putting the sickel to the grain", they had to count 49 days (7 weeks x 7 days=49 days though it could mean after the last day of the 7 weeks, making it 50 days) from that and then keep the Feast of the Weeks (which is known as Pentacost).

So we see the establish timeline are speaking of consecutive days (up until they go to Assop), then it tells us that Paul is trying to head to Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. Are timeline seems like it is in a span of 50 days.

 

[stranger]

'Breaking bread' is simply an idiom for havng a meal together ... one can break leavened bread for a meal, just as easily as unleavened bread.

On the other hand Jesus says why he came to Jerusalem , to eat Passover with his disciples ...and , because he is fulfilling the prophecy of memorial Passover as the sacrificial Lamb of God, he underlines that the celebration will continue as his memorial now it has been fulfilled in him ... thus communion in Christ for those worthy to do so [those giving up sin for a whole year] is an annual event because it is the continuation of Passover , now pointing back to Christ , wheras before it pointed forward in time to his death...

the jewish hierarchy thus had to be caused to be keeping Passover a day late before Jesus died, else he would not have been able to eat passover and yet be sacrificed on the [already falsely timed] Jews 'day of preparation' for Passover when they killed the lambs [and the Lamb] ... the disciples killed the lamb for Jesus' Passover the day before , as per the scripture , so how did God cause the Jews to be keeping the wrong day? [timing lost during captivity?]

looking at teh history of 'Christian' weekly communion one discovers its origin is a pagan celebration adapted into christianity, nothing whatever to do with Jesus, overlaid with false significance [as in fact are all modern christian days , every single holy day in the scripture has been substituted for with a pagan day which was then given a christian spin - it is hardly insignificant , particularly when one notices that the apostasy was predicted, prophesied, and Jesus said that the whole world must come to worship falsely [Rev 13:3-4] before he could return[2 Thessalonians 2:3] , bar only a few saints {Rev 7:3-8, Jude 1:14,Matt 7:14] ,very few clinging on to faith in the scriptural iage of Jesus and his new covenant with those whose fathers broke the old one [Heb 8:8-12] until he returns.

religion is divided and thus truly obviously cannot be one truth of God... but if not true then it is false... there is then not much point in listening to anyone but the saints and prophets and Jesus , cos' we know that sinners now rule religion of sinners, but jesus commanded only those who would be saints before death :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

there is little point then in reading and re-iterating stories about scripture [interpretations, hermeneutics] invented by sinners to divide off their beliefs from other sinners and the saints... the clues from the saints :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[timbo81]

Some christians want to claim they are Israel to be under Grace, but they refuse the perpetual covenant about the true sabbath in favour of a pagn sun-worship day imposed originally by Rome [by force of arms, crucifying and throwing to the lions of the Hebrew Christian saints who would not conform to Sunday practices in place of holy sabbaths , saints as 'heretics' from the Roman paganised version of Christianity

a pagan sun god that doesn't exist though.

why give it any power, God owns every day.

the issue of what day to worship on seems irrelevant to me.

I'd have church service everday if I could, the fact it happens to fall on a sunday is a name and nothing more than a matter of convenience.

God can be worshiped outside of 1 day a week.

is a mid-week Bible study somehow a violation of the sabbath, since we have 2 or more people meeting in a group to worship God.

 

[Stravinsk]

a pagan sun god that doesn't exist though.

why give it any power, God owns every day.

the issue of what day to worship on seems irrelevant to me.

I'd have church service everday if I could, the fact it happens to fall on a sunday is a name and nothing more than a matter of convenience.

God can be worshiped outside of 1 day a week.

is a mid-week Bible study somehow a violation of the sabbath, since we have 2 or more people meeting in a group to worship God.

I think you miss the broader implications. This is the article that got me investigating this issue, and although I think his interpretation of the Greek is off (ie: Mia twn Sabbatwn does not mean "first of the Sabbaths" but "one of the Sabbaths") - otherwise the article is worth reading, giving a little historical and biblical background:

Ronald L. Dart: The New Testament Sabbath Day

I do suggest reading this other article on the translation of "mia twn Sabbatwn" as well. My comments are at the bottom(you'll need to read the article first though):

Is the Phrase "First Day of the Week" Properly Translated in the New Testament?

 

[stranger]

a pagan sun god that doesn't exist though.
why give it any power, God owns every day.

Interestingly all sinners do already , it is effectively no other than Satan in another guise, the father of all lies , even those about other gods... the thing is though that anyone who hasn't stopped sinning will continue to serve Satan right up to death or the return of Jesus [whichever is sooner]... we worship Satan in our money system, usury robs the poor demolishing a percentage of lives daily, to give even more to the rich, almost all teh world already has thsi 'mark of the beast' in their mind['frontlets'] and action [right hand] ... people just don't associate it with evil because it is automatic , but the evil is serious and destroying our world [the web of nature is alreay broken, we await only our food supplies to start failing catastrophically]

the issue of what day to worship on seems irrelevant to me.

Yes, irrelevant to all but the saints with whom God made it their sign, that they keep as witness that they follow the one true god [of Jesus, the prophets and the saints, of no-one else]:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

I'd have church service everday if I could, the fact it happens to fall on a sunday is a name and nothing more than a matter of convenience.

Yes, Ok for the countless sinners of [sinners'] religion who go by the broad way [obviously they are not the few, just count and observe the sin and division !] , but for saints there are six days for doing any work that they need to do , only the sabbath is set absolutely free from toil , only they keep the true sabbath too [not that easy to rediscover, Satan has tried every trick to hide people from receiving the unconditional blessing God put on keeping sabbath -Gen 2:3]

God can be worshiped outside of 1 day a week.

True enough, but Jesus said that God must be worshiped in spirit, sinners cannot do that, do not even know how to because God has not taught them yet.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Sinners often get taught by sinners in 'Sunday school' and in sinner 'priest colleges' , but the new covenant says God teaches all His saints Himself , putting His laws in their miinds , taking them as His people by means of all His truth He gives them and knowledge of the future[John 16:13]

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

It is thus very clear from scripture [and from observed division of men] that one does not become a saint and follow Jesus by learning from sinners in divided religious traditions of men

is a mid-week Bible study somehow a violation of the sabbath, since we have 2 or more people meeting in a group to worship God.

Jesus has said how God must be worshiped now... Bible study is best done with God in prayer for His truth and meditation on scripture to understand its unique meaning [since it is either One whole truth or not of God]:-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Religion has a purpose in binding the belief of many , but it is not the sole purpose that Jesus said that he had come for and set his followers to continue doing:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Most sinners have no idea who the 'House of Israel' was in scripture , let alone who they could be today now they are no longer a people.

How can religion follow Jesus when it does not do what he commanded his disciples to do ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

How can religion follow Jesus when it does not do what he commanded his disciples to do ?

Indeed. How can religion follow Jesus when it adds multiple commandments that He never gave to his disciples?

Pray tell us where Jesus specifically commanded his disiples to observe the Sabbath. If you choose to revert to the Old Testament commandments as your proof, please tell us why you utterly fail to keep the Sabbath according to the detailed commandment there.

Thank you.

 

[Stravinsk]

Indeed. How can religion follow Jesus when it adds multiple commandments that He never gave to his disciples?

Pray tell us where Jesus specifically commanded his disiples to observe the Sabbath. If you choose to revert to the Old Testament commandments as your proof, please tell us why you utterly fail to keep the Sabbath according to the detailed commandment there.

Thank you.

I'm sure stranger is well enough equipped to answer your challenge. But I'll have a crack at it:

Matt 24:20. Right smack in the middle of giving a sermon about the End Times, Christ tells us that we are to pray that our flight be not on in winter nor on the Sabbath.

If you take this out of context and say it only applies to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD - well you still have Christ telling His disciples to keep the Sabbath after His death and Resurrection.

If you say this is only for the Jews, then you have no basis to believe that any of Christ's words apply to you whatsoever because nearly everything He said was to the Jews!

Hebrews 4:9
KJV There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

- The word translated "Sabbath rest" (NIV), "rest" (KJV) and "sabbatic rest" (YLT) is "sabbatismos" - which means "Sabbath keeping"

And if it REMAINS, then it was instituted before!

Here are a few more:

KJV Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

KJV Revelation 22:14 ¶ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

KJV 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

KJV John 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

If you argue that Jesus came to give us just 2 and forget the rest, then you have a problem,​

because Christ is Lord Almighty​

AND​

KJV Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.​

AND​

KJV John 10:30 I and my Father are one.​

Jesus Christ is the same God who gave the commandments in the first place! If you differ, you have a different, and false, Christ.​

 

[timbo81]

How can religion follow Jesus when it does not do what he commanded his disciples to do ?

no one can keep the commandments though, they were there to show us where we failed.

even if you keep the sabbath, you've broken every other one. And he who has broken one is guilty of all 10 anyway.

 

[stranger]

Indeed. How can religion follow Jesus when it adds multiple commandments that He never gave to his disciples?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In Rev 13:3-4 Jesus describes the extent of this falling away ['apostasy'] of religion, indeed of the whole world following Satan as this false saviour of the then [now?] much-troubled world, the 'antichristos', one in place of Christ.

Thus religion cannot follow Jesus , it is incapable of doing so ... Jesus describes those he takes at his return,at the death of the 'antichrist' in Rev 7:3-8 , there are but 144,000 [confirmed as literal by Enoch - see Jude 1:14 , there are only tens of thousands of saints to bridge the gap between Jesus' two comings ... that amounts to about a coupe of thousand who can follow Jesus alive at any one time [and they scattered worldwide by the task Jesus set them of finding the lost House of Israel , who ceased to be a people and were scattered long before the Jews [House of Judah]... this shows that any group larger than say 2000 and not composed wholly of saints knowing all truth of God [John 16:13] simply cannot be following Jesus and will worship the antichrist , according to Jesus' witness in scripture... that rules out almost all modern religion even before one starts going through doctrine in detail [which eliminates the rest of religion of sinners led by sinners rather quickly too - ]

So you are right, religion cannot follow Jesus, and basically he said so ... because they cannot stop sinning [and most know it] ... religion has an essential role following the antichrist, but it is only the saints which can follow Jesus , those who stop sinning [2 Timothy 2:19] , who stop disobeying Jesus' command to love [else he would not be their Lord ... whatever sinners say , sin is not love and it is disobedience to Jesus , so even if a sinner cries out 'Jesus is my Lord' ,his sin shows that Jesus is not his Lord]

Pray tell us where Jesus specifically commanded his disciples to observe the Sabbath.

Jesus summarised the commandments of God to the saints as :-

Matt 22:37 ...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Sinners have no idea how to do the first [because God must be worshiped in spirit and they do not have spirit baptism] and fare not too well at the second ... since Jesus knew this ,he only instructed those who would be saints , no point in instructing hose who would remain sinners until death since he knew they could never keep in this life his commands to the FEW saints of this world. [significantly he did say countess many would keep them in the next life though, despite dying sinners in this life - Rev 7:9-10 , the 'broad' way to Jesus for the many , not just the few of Matt 7:14!]

Thus we find that all those that Jesus commanded in this life are of the tribes of Israel [Rev 7:3-8] ,sealed by the holy spirit to know all truth [John 16:13] to be ABLE to defeat all Satan's wiles and so stop sinning .

as you likely know, all the other commandments of the old covenant are repeated in the NT , so the question reduces to - Why should those whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] , the only ones given grace in the new covenant [Heb 8:8-13, Jer 31:31-34] keep the sabbath , when they have unconditonal forgiveness anyway ?

The answer is that God set up a sign between Israel and Himself, a perpetual covenant in keeping His sabbaths [because holy sabbaths are actually memorial days celebrating the past and future events of God's plan... few in modern religion understand that, but the saints do, and Satan thinks it important enough that all holy days have been substituted out of Christianity,not one Hebrew holy day of scripture is celebrated in most of Christainity .. the plan is lost to christian sinners , they keep pagan days labeled 'christian' instead of the holy days set by God to show His plan for the future of mankind.

The OT records that holy days are memorials for ever , they are not alterable , they did not disappear just because Israel broke its old covenant [partly to keep them]

In particular the weekly sabbath is a sign between Israel and God for ever that shows they are His people and He is their God :-

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
...
Ezekiel 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Thus Jesus [as a Jew] and his disciples [mostly Jews at first] kept sabbath to please God and show that they are the people of God and He their God even though they were no longer under sentence of being stoned to death for not keeping sabbath [as in the old covenant], they had farmore to lose than life by not keeping sabbath.

Isaiah makes the point for keeping sabbaths into even our future

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isaiah here continues describing events in the times after the House of Israel and the House of Judah are re-united under the Messiah [the Christ] ... things in our future , so clearly keeping sabbaths [in fact all memorial sabbaths, not just weekly sabbath] is important now and into the new earth, just as one would expect of reminders to God's plan... there would be no sense in them being lost ... there are other reasons why they are lost to most of christianity.

If you choose to revert to the Old Testament commandments as your proof, please tell us why you utterly fail to keep the Sabbath according to the detailed commandment there.

The old covenant demanded the death penalty for sabbath-breaking under the old covenant , the penalty under the new covenant is to be rejected by Jesus at his return [far worse than death for a saint] :-
Jesus talking of his return:
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

again , the very foundation of salvation in the name of Christ is to give up all sin [through baptism of the spirit ... it is a gift from God, not of our own selves choosing, but God's choice of the few [Matt 7:14]from the beginning, but the many are saved too just later , once the kingdom is set up and ready for the few to rule and minister to uncountable billions [ Rev 7:9-10]

The few are 'chosen' only because God required to show His power of prophecy , there had to be a name , He chose Israel , named them with His name as His people , they rebelled , so He takes them as His people in the new covenant, those descended from the ones who broke His old covenant , because of Him, not them :-

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers

This little word 'their' gives the lie to almost all christian religion , it proves that the new covenant of grace is only with those whose ancestors broke the old covenant , only with [genetic] Israel, as indeed Jesus confirms in Rev 7:3-8 , naming the saints of this earth by tribe of Israel.

It is a very significant error, deceiving over a billion people in religion about what Jesus came to do and what the gospel is about...

christians do not want to do away with their rest day, what they want todo is pretend that it is holy , but God set His holy day for rest on sabbath , not even a Roman-type day at all [but starting at evening in Jerusalem, not local midnight like Roman days most keep today]

The argument really is for christians between keeping God's word or keeping some other pagan day and not working the six days God set for work... thus christians already do not seek to please God by keeping sabbaths, the only way they could show they love God in obedience to Jesus command if they were saints ... it is clear then that gdo has a different salvation for the many christians who goby the broad way of sinners , it is still a salvation [Rev 7:9-10] but not by the new covenant, but by being freed from sin by death :

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It matters not a lot that christian sinners don' t keep sabbath since they are bound to die anyway , what will matter to them is when Jesus returns and they are not taken first because they are still sinners , then they will gnash their teeth at God, but because they have been deceived by listening to sinners, not scripture ... they will still be saved alongside many other sinners , more than the few who take the narrow strait way are saved

The few are first only because the kings and priests of the kingdom need to be there at the start , ready to rule and minister to billions of resurrected sinners freed from sin by death who live righteously under Jesus in the new earth before being judged by their works there... everyone is delivered up from hell free from sin with the opportunity to be saved by works in the righteous new earth at judgment day :

Revelation 20:13 ... hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

sabbaths are memorials right to the end of God's plan , the weekly sabbath symbolising final rest in the third heaven [paradise, immortality of the tree of life, the spirit] ... there can be no ceasing of God's memorials until it is all over, they would cease to be memorials if they disappeared before fulfillment... God put them there as signs, only sinners do not need them until the next life [when scripture shows that all will keep sabbaths]

It is totally mistaken to think that God's word canbe ignored in the OT, God's word is ONE truth, OT and NT , else it would not be of God ... if one does not believe that then there is nothing to be said about the future , about salvation, redemption to spirit ...

 

[Dale]

Stranger in post #37:
"If the 1st day of the week were holy [for which there is no command of God at all , as distinct from commands to keep many memorial holy days which modern religion spurns in favour of pagan days] then it still would not be Sunday ..."

How do you figure that Sunday is not the first day of the week? Genesis makes it clear that God rested on the last day of the week, Saturday. If Saturday is the last day of the week then Sunday is the first.

It is clear that Stranger does not know the Old Testament or the New Testament.

I will call your attention to what the Book of Acts says about the most important letter sent by the Apostles, the Council of Jerusalem (AD 33?) to the Gentiles.

"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you [the Gentiles] with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
--Acts 15:28-29 NIV

At the Council of Jerusalem, the Apostles decided under what conditions the Gentiles would become Christians. As the letter says, the decision really comes from the Holy Spirit, part of the Trinity. Notice that it says nothing about Sabbath observance and certainly does not lay down the Hebrew method of determining the beginning and end of the day.

The Council of Jerusalem established the dispensation that we are under today as non-Jewish believers in Christ.

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[Dale]

What day of the week did Christ and the Apostles eat the Passover and celebrate the first Lord's Supper?

From Harper's Bible Dictionary:

"John 18:28 suggests that Jesus died on Friday afternoon, before the Passover of Friday Nisan 14, which began at sunset. Jesus may have been compelled by the swift development of the circumstances that precipitated his death to eat an anticipatory Passover with his disciples. This belief lies back of the Holy Thursday observance of the Lord's Supper in many churches today."

--Harper's Bible Dictionary under The Lord's Supper

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[stranger]

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This shows that the only consistent time for Jesus' death corresponds with what most now call Wednesday afternoon ... but Passover is a Hebrew day starting at around sunset Jerusalem , it does not correspond to any day we keep today, there simply cannot be any such thing as 'holy Wednesday', 'holy Thursday', 'Good Friday , Easter Sunday' [because that would start and end at local time midnight, not even absolute time , and those days are (bizarrely) somewhere on the earth for 48 hours eah, unlike the Hebrew days set by God from the beginning]

Also Jesus was the one who kept the true Passover ,because it pleases God to keep His sabbaths and as Jesus said, it behoves a man to keep the Law of God [Jesus is a Jew and lived under the old covenant until his death ...which brought in the new covenant as a better option by far for Israel's two Houses, two divided nations [Heb 8:8-13] - note that the new covenant is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, not with some 'spiritual Israel' as some sinners teach today, contradicting both Paul and Jeremiah [31:31-34] ,and thus God, about the new covenant.

It is the Jews then which were keeping the wrong day , one can prove this because the Hebrew day after the evening Passover meal is an annual holy sabbath called the Day of the Feast of unleavened bread ... we know that the women rested this sabbath , bought herbs and spices and prepared them the next day, then rested the weekly sabbath

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Thus there was a non-sabbath day between the two sabbaths, which day ironically was kept falsely as a sabbath by the Jewish hierarchy [but not by the followers of Jesus]

the women thus bought herbs and spices on an 'official sabbath' of the Jewish hierarchy

It also shows that Jesus rose close to sunset toward the end of the weekly sabbath, even though he was not discovered missing from the tomb until the morning after [close to dawn]

Thus Jesus indeed rose on the Lord's day , but it was Hebrew sabbath , and could not possibly be pagan Sunday...

all-in-all, integrating the scriptures to take in the sign of Jonah and the witness of those who buried him rather demolishes the common religious traditions fairly easily... one has to ask why they exist and deceive so many when the scripture is there for everyone to read... Jesus and the saints and prophets explain that reason too... few search out the answers to that though either...

 

[Dale]

Stranger in post #52:
"Isaiah makes the point for keeping sabbaths into even our future

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isaiah here continues describing events in the times after the House of Israel and the House of Judah are re-united under the Messiah [the Christ] ... things in our future , so clearly keeping sabbaths [in fact all memorial sabbaths, not just weekly sabbath] is important now and into the new earth, just as one would expect of reminders to God's plan... there would be no sense in them being lost ... there are other reasons why they are lost to most of christianity."


Here those who keep the Sabbath simply means those who keep the Lord's commandments, and we are in an Old Testament context here. While you are looking at Isaiah, take a look at this verse.


"[The Lord says,] Stop bringing meaningless offerings! your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations--I cannot bear your evil assemblies."
--Isaiah 1:13


This is one of the thoughts that opens the Book of Isaiah. Yes, Isaiah denounces religious ceremonies on the Sabbath when the celebrants are hypocrites.

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[Dale]

Stranger in post #24:
"Rome supposedly crucified Peter, yet claims that Peter gave them authority which Jesus denied to all his followers [telling them that he alone was the master of his congregation of saints who were all equals] ... Rome asserts it has authority to change God's perpetual covenants, the authority not of a saint, but of a pagan sinner, authority which Jesus certainly never gave up to anyone according to his words in scripture ... Jesus is head of his congregation of saints , no-one can rely upon anyone in place of Christ..."

Supposedly crucified Peter? I don't think there's any doubt about that.
You are confusing the Roman Empire with the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps deliberately. Are you writing faster than you can think?

Should I put this on my list of reasons not to believe Seventh Day Adventist history?

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[stranger]

You are confusing the Roman Empire with the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps deliberately. Are you writing faster than you can think?

The first 'popes' were Roman Emperors who killed and scattered the original Hebrew saints' congregations, destroying the original congregations set up mostly by Paul ,and engineered a new religion of sinners led by sinners, to control the people , enforced by Law and threat of death for disobeying the Emperor... the confusion is not in my mind...

Peter was told plainly by Jesus that he was NOT the leader of the congregation of saints , that Jesus would always be the Christ, the king, the anointed, not anyone else , that the disciples all follow Jesus, not Peter... It is equally inconceivable that saint Peter on being crucified by Rome would transfer anything at all, even assert credibility to the sinner who ordered his crucifixion , the 'pope' and Roman Emperor... it is frankly inconceivable yet this is the spin of claiming authority of Rome ... the seven churches of God [in modern Turkey], all razed to the ground , their congregations of saints killed and scattered never to re-congregate, all to kill the old religion and bring in a modified paganism in place of it ... all holy memorial days of God's plan replaced with pagan days dressed up as 'christian' , all ritual altered from that recorded by God as holy, sinner priests set up in place of saints, elite and distinct from the 'congregation' and in a hierarchy , not equal under Christ ... brutally enforced on the population by Roman Law backed by the sword, crucifixion, and feeding to the lions to amuse the Roman crowds .

The Roman church rose on the blood of martyrs, they were martyred because they opposed it , it has never reformed from its pagan roots even in its countless offshoots.

 

[Dale]

Stranger in post #24:
<< 'antichristos' in Greek means 'one in place of Christ' , unsurprisingly a title assumed by popes [Vicarius Filii Dei means just the same in Latin: 'in the place of the son of God' ] >>

On the contrary, the basic meaning of Anti-Christ is &#8220;against Christ.&#8221;
To refer to a secular, but unbiased source, the New World Dictionary:

&#8220;antichrist . . . 1. an opponent or a disbeliever in Christ 2. Bible the great antagonist of Christ, expected to spread universal evil before the end of the world but finally to be conquered at Christ&#8217;s second coming . . .3. a false Christ.&#8221;

If you are going to get anything right, start with the definitions!

Why are Sundays "pagan"? Do you expect us to believe this?

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[stranger]

Stranger in post #24:
<< 'antichristos' in Greek means 'one in place of Christ' , unsurprisingly a title assumed by popes [Vicarius Filii Dei means just the same in Latin: 'in the place of the son of God' ] >>
On the contrary, the basic meaning of Anti-Christ is “against Christ.”
To refer to a secular, but unbiased source, the New World Dictionary:

The prefix 'anti' in Latin means 'against' ... In Greek [as in the NT] it also carries the meaning 'in place of'
Thus the 'antichristos' is equally against Christ and revealingly equaly 'in place of Christ' ...
The OT reflects this in the one at the right hand of God [Christ] being identical to the one at the left hand , identified as Lucifer/Satan :-
Ezekiel 28:16 ... thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Also by Jesus , that the likeness to Chrsit is sufficient to convince all the world that the antichrist is the Christ [Rev 7:3-10] ,bar only the few saints.

If you are going to get anything right, start with the definitions!

Unfortunately you did not look at a Greek dictionary , else you would have seen the two meanings of 'anti' in Greek ... so it is yu who needs to be more careful about definitions and not jump to conclusions.

Why are Sundays "pagan"? Do you expect us to believe this?

You do not need to believe me , and I do not expect anyone to believe me ... just check up o the history of the names of the days of the week , named originally after the 'planets' [then thought to include the sun and moon , and only five true planets then known to exist] ... later the names of pagan gods were given to their holy days of the week.

In Rome the sun god was the chief god and his day of worship was called Sun-day ... when Rome demolished Hebrew following of Jesus by the saints and invented a religion for sinners led by sinners to control the people by decree, the day of worship remained Sunday and anyone keeping sabbath of God was arrested for disobeying the Emperor , an offence punishable by death ... many Hebrew saints died, some saints managed to flee , the seven churches of God were destroyed and there was no congregation possible for saints after that , no evidence that they ever congregated again, and their task, set by Jesus , to find the scattered [worldwide]House of Israel amongst the gentiles is sufficient to suppose that they went their separate ways ... equally, at Jesus' return, he says that he takes one here, one there... it seems to be saying the same thing.

Hey, but find these things for yourself , they are all on the web these days , or look them up down the library... you will however not find them in church...

Interestingly the first popes were all Roman Emperors, obliged by Roman tradition to declare themselves to be gods... 'Constantine' is supposed by legend to have declared himself a Christian on his death bed, but lived his life as a pagan , yet somehow he is supposed to have been handed the control of all Christians in place of Jesus ... when exactly , on his death bed ???

yet he did control the paganised Christianity that he more than anyone created , he did control all Christians in the Roman empire, but as a pagan himself ... it is clear that he did not control the saints who followed Jesus and his disciples...
It is important then to understand what the saints say is following Christ :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jesus too says quite simply that he will not take anyone who hasn't stopped sinning by time of his return:-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

so there we have a rather clear means of distinguishing the congregtaions of the antichrist from that of the Christ , one is divided groups of sinners arguing with other groups of sinners, all led by sinners along secular hierarchical lines , Jesus 'congregation' of saints no longer congregates, but goes about the work he set them , and they are all saints, baptised to know all truth of God [John 16:13], no need to teach or be taught [Heb 8:8-12] because they have all truth from God once baptised of the spirit [in response by God to laying on of hands by a saint?]

The scripture is rather revealing about religious tradition of sinners , history fits rather convincingly too, it is perhaps the most convincing evidence of Jesus that he predicted the complete falling away of religion of sinners,[Rev 13:3-10] something that cannot rather obviously be attributed to sinners.
Paul pointed it out too, that it must happen before Jesus returns [2 Thessalonians 2]