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St. Justin Martyr Described Sunday Worship

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Dale, Jan 13, 2009.

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  1. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    The Seventh Day Adventists keep telling us that Sunday worship did not develop until hundreds of years after the Apostles.


    St. Justin Martyr (about 100 AD to about 165 AD) is the earliest written source to describe Sunday as the day of Christian worship. Justin Martyr does not advocate Sunday worship, it was already an accepted, an established fact.

    "As to the Eucharist, the baptismal Mass and the Sunday Mass are described in [Justin Martyr's] first "Apology" (lxv-lxvii), with a richness of detail unique for that age."

    This is from the online New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia under Justin Martyr. See the last heading The Logos, and the paragraph "The Holy Ghost occupies the third place in the Trinity . . ."


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08580c.htm

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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  2. MrPolo

    MrPolo Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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    You can see lots of references to Sunday worship in the early Church. Gotta love Justin Martyr! :) Another good one is, if I remember the names right, a letter from Pliny regarding the Christians who gathered on Sundays. If you search "apologetics Pliny Sunday worship" you'll probably turn up something. :) Even the resurrected Jesus broke the bread (Lk 24:30) on Sunday (Lk 24:1).
     
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  3. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    Here is an excerpt from the First Apology of Justin Martyr. I have highlighted the sentences where he mentions Sunday but included a longer quote to give the style and flavor.




    CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.

    But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

    CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

    And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

    CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.
    And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.



    Click here: Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html


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  4. dinomight

    dinomight Newbie

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    At one time, I somewhat sympathized with the Adventist point of view on keeping the Sabbath, but I've since come to understand why it is that most Christians have Sunday as the day of worship. It's all about remembering the Sunday resurrection. It's nice to read the words of historical Christian figures, such as Justin Martyr, which help to validate that this is the way things have been done throughout the ages. I think that's a reason that I'm so fascinated by Church history and love to read about it.
     
  5. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    Dinomight:
    "At one time, I somewhat sympathized with the Adventist point of view on keeping the Sabbath, but I've since come to understand why it is that most Christians have Sunday as the day of worship."

    That's interesting. Can you point to anything in particular that persuaded you?


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  6. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    Scholars date the Apology of Justin Martyr, quoted above, to 156 AD. Justin Martyr was not a priest and did not write in any official capacity for the church but simply as a lay member. To me, that makes his account all the more interesting.


    "Justin Martyr was a second century Christian apologist. His apology is dedicated to Emperor Antoninus, who ruled from 138-161. His apology may be dated internally from the statement in chapter 6 that "Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius." Since Quirinius entered office in the year 6 C.E. according to Josephus, the apology may be dated to the year 156 CE."



    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/justin.html


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  7. JacktheCatholic

    JacktheCatholic Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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    Excellent points.

    Sunday has been the Lord's Day since the beginning. :thumbsup:
     
  8. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    St. Ignatius on the sabbath and Sunday worship.

    The following is from the Epistle of St. Ignatius to the Magnesians.


    Chapter 9. Let us live with Christ

    If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. Matthew 27:52





    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm

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    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  9. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    Tertullian is one of the early Church fathers who mentioned Sunday worship in the church of his time. For instance, in a brief piece, The Chaplet, he says:

    We rejoice in the same privilege also from Easter to Whitsunday.
    --The Chaplet, Chapter 3


    In Ad Nationes, To the Nations, Tertullian says:


    Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity.


    A few sentences later:


    Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us.



    Notice that Tertullian describes Sunday worship as "a well known fact," not as anything controversial or as a recent innovation.


    Both of these quotes are from the first paragraph in Chapter 13 of Ad Nationes.

    Both works of Tertullian can be found at the link below.


    CHURCH FATHERS: Home

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

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    Last edited: Feb 5, 2009
  10. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    The Chaplet was written about 209 AD and To the Nations about 197 AD. Tertullian was ordained a priest in about 200 AD, so he wrote To the Nations as a layman but The Chaplet as an ordained priest.


    "The year 197 saw the publication of a short address by Tertullian, "To the Martyrs", and of his great apologetic works, the "Ad nationes" and the "Apologeticus"."





    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tertullian
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm


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  11. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF

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    That was written about 107 AD, if I remember correctly.
     
  12. CreedIsChrist

    CreedIsChrist New Member

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    It seems the SDA have failed in allot of false prophecies and false presumptions of Christian history.

    Justin Martyr also talked about the Real Presence in the Eucharist too
     
  13. Stravinsk

    Stravinsk Neo Baroque/Rococo Classical Artist

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    It is very interesting, isn't it? Here is something else that is interesting, and should put the so called "church fathers" writings to shame:


    Ezekiel 8:15-16 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 ¶ And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.



    Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.


    Malachi 3:6 or I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


    Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor *alter* the thing that is gone out of my lips. ​


    Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    Greek word for "rest" is
    sabbatismos - which literally means "Sabbath Keeping" or "A keeping of the Sabbath"

    Another interesting fact about Sunday is that the Fri-Sun scenario clearly doesn't fit the words of Christ that He would be "in the heart of the earth" 3 days and 3 nights. Now some people argue (I used to) that according to "Jewish Inclusive Reckoning" this means parts of 3 days and 3 nights. Unfortunately, there is not even a "part" of Sunday *night* that would factor in.

    Unfortunately for the apologists...this ridiculous "inclusive reckoning" leaves open stuff like the 40 day/night fast of Christ being reduced to "part of a fast" where Christ perhaps just fasted at night and snacked during the day or perhaps He only fasted 35 days not 40.

    According to Ezekiel 43:1-3 and 46:1-3 the *Prince* would only enter through the open door. That door was only open 1) On the new moons and 2) On the Holy Sabbath

    According to John 20:17 Christ *had not yet ascended* to the Father. Therefore, if it was a Sunday, Christ is a day late.

    Fortunately, the phrase "first day of the week" in all the Gospels is a mistranslation. The phrase literally reads "One(mia) of the Sabbaths(twn sabbatwn)" - The word "first" (protos) has a clear and defined meaning throughout the gospels and *does not mean* "one", just as "one"(mia) has a clear a defined meaning throughout the gospels and other writings and *does not mean* "first"

    According to Numbers 19, which is mirrored in Hebrews 9, it is the 3rd and *7th* days the High Priest (fulfilled in Christ) sprinkles the unclean, and the Priest is "unclean" till even. This may explain why Jesus, throughout all His Ministry, has no problem being touched, except *after* He is resurrected and appears to Mary and so says "touch me not!" . The NIV for this verse is a mistranslation, it is "touch", not "hold on to".

    According to Christ, in the midst of giving a sermon about the end times, said Christians are still to obey the Sabbath:


    Matt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    And finally, we have this gem:


    Psalm 132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.​

    Christ was crucified on Wednesday, before the annual Sabbath of the 1st day of Unleavened Bread, a Thursday, the women bought and prepared spices on Friday, and went to the tomb on the Sabbath (Saturday) to find that Christ had already risen, fullfilling the sign of Jonah, Eze 43:1-3,46:1-3, Numbers 19, the Psalms and numerous other references. ​

    Christ Jesus is risen the 3rd day, which falls "after 3 days". The passover Lamb must be slaughtered on Nissan 14, and eaten that night (the 15th, since Jewish days start at night). The 15th is the "first day of unleavened bread" so it follows that Christ, our passover lamb, is risen on "the third day [of Unleavened Bread] that falls "after 3 days". ​


    ...all for which Christ Jesus said: ​


    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    There were certainly Christians who kept Sabbath and believed Christ rose that day. Here is some evidence: ​


    Bishop Gregory of Tours (A.D. 538-594) tells us that many in France believed Christ arose on the seventh day of the week, even though he himself defended a Sunday resurrection belief. He stated, "Now in our belief the resurrection of the Lord was on the first day, and not on the seventh as many deem."

    Gregory of Tours, The History of the Franks, Vol. 2, (trans. by D.M. Dalton), Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1927, p. 24

    Here are some links:

    http://www.giveshare.org/HolyDay/wednesdaycrucifxion.html

    http://www.torahtimes.org/book/page66.pdf

    http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn63/jesus_crucifixion.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  14. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    All right, let's look at the Bible itself. What day of the week did the early Christian church worship on, when the church was lead by the Apostles?

    When the Holy Spirit came on the Church at Pentecost, Pentecost was a Jewish Festival before it was a Christian event. Pentecost was on a Sunday.

    Christians had gathered for worship on a Sunday, having no idea that they would experience the coming of the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit chose to descend on the Church on Sunday, confirming their choice of that day of worship.

    How do we know that Pentecost was on a Sunday? Let's see what the Jewish Encyclopedia says about it.


    << PENTECOST


    Name given by the Greek-speaking Jews to the festival which occurred fifty days (&#7969; &#960;&#949;&#957;&#964;&#951;&#954;&#972;&#963;&#964;&#951;, sc. &#7969;&#924;&#941;&#961;&#945; = "&#7716;ag &#7716;amishshim Yom"; comp. Lev. xxiii. 16) after the offering of the barley sheaf during the Passover feast . . . >>

    << The Feast of the Fiftieth Day has been a many-sided one . . . >>



    << Pentecost was thus the concluding festival of the grain harvest . . . >>


    Link:

    JewishEncyclopedia.com - PENTECOST


    Fifty days after the Passover Sabbath is seven weeks and one day, which will always fall on a Sunday.

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  15. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

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    Pentecost comes from Leviticus 23. Leviticus 23:3 establishes the Jewish Sabbath. Leviticus 23: 5 establishes the Passover.


    "'From the day after the [Passover] Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and present an offering of new grain to the Lord.'"
    --Leviticus 23:15-16 NIV


    This offering of new grain is the Feast of Firstfruits, also known as Pentecost.


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  16. Stravinsk

    Stravinsk Neo Baroque/Rococo Classical Artist

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    I'm off to work at the moment, Dale, but when I return I will take some time and reply
     
  17. Stravinsk

    Stravinsk Neo Baroque/Rococo Classical Artist

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    On the Sabbath. This can be established by both the Bible, writings hundreds of years after the Resurrection and by the Roman Churches edicts against it hundreds of years later.

    1) On the Sabbath:
    First it must be established that Pentacost came *before* the conversion of Saul and *after* the Resurrection of Christ. This happened just as it should, on the 50th day after the Sabbath that occurred during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is why the disciples had to WAIT after Christ appeared to them over 40 days. Pentacost had "not yet come" and it certainly wasn't on the day Christ rose from the dead:

    Acts 1:3,4 Jesus is showing himself for 40 days after His Resurrection, and tells them not to depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father.

    Acts 2:1 The day of Pentacost (the 50th day) has "fully come". Yes, this was what we call Sunday.

    From Acts chapters 2-9, the body of believers increases, and there is much preaching from Peter - but no change in the day of worship, and no preaching of a change in the day. In fact, there is not one place in Acts where you can find such an important teaching on the change in the day of Worship. There is not a hint of it, not one iota - and *it would have been noticed* - because to the Jews the Sabbath was VERY important. It was the heart of the covenant with God. Yet, there is absolutely no preaching on a change of God's Holy Day.

    Now the church is growing, and Saul is getting annoyed:

    Acts 9:1-2 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

    Saul is persecuting early Christians *in the synagogues*, which means that the early believers were still keeping Sabbath, along with their unbelieving Jewish bretheren.

    Acts 9:20 After his conversion, Saul/Paul preaches Christ *in the synagogues*, which means he is preaching on the Sabbath.

    Acts 13:14+ Paul and company preach on Sabbath

    THE GENTILES entreat Paul to Preach to them the NEXT SABBATH:Acts 13:42,44

    Acts 16:13 Again on the Sabbath

    Acts 17:2 Paul reasons with them out of the Scriptures 3 Sabbaths

    Acts 18:4 Still reasoning every Sabbath

    Throughout the entire book of Acts, there is only one place where you can say the disciples met on Sunday(at least from most bibles), and that is Acts 20:7

    And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

    The phrase translated "first day of the week" is this
    " Mia twn Sabbatwn ". It is used in Matthew, Luke and John to describe "the first day of the week" in the Resurrection passages.
    "Mia" means "one", it doesn't mean "first". It is the same word used here:
    "one of the least of these commandments"
    "one of the maids" Mark 14:66
    "one city" (or, a certain city) Luke 5:12
    "one day (or, a certain day) Luke 5:17

    These are just 4 of 72 times in the NT alone where "mia" means "one" or "a certain one".

    The word for "first" is "protos", and it likewise has a specific meaning, and a very specific usage in both the NT and the Septuagint.

    Mia twn Sabbatwn literally translates "one of the Sabbaths". But because "mia" is feminine and "of Sabbaths" is Neuter - the word "day" (in feminine) has been added to the text. So then, we have "one day of the Sabbaths".

    "Day of the Sabbaths" is used in the following places to describe the Sabbath day:

    Luke 4:16, Acts 13:14, Acts 16:13
    The phrase translated "Sabbath day" in the Greek of these passages is "hemera twn sabbatwn" -" day of the Sabbaths"


    The word for "week", btw, was known at the time. It was and still is "hebdomadas"(ebdomadoV) and is used in the Septuagint in Lev 23:15, and Deut 16:9. It is also used by Josephus here:
    Antiquities of the Jews 3:252
    Wars of the Jews 2:289
    Wars of the Jews 4:99
    Against Apion 2:175
    And guess what? It's still used in modern Greek today.

    ebdomadoV = "week" in modern Greek

    Matthew Chapter 28 - Modern Greek Bible - Free Bible Software by johnhurt.com

    Matt 28:1 (3rd line down, first word)


    You are absolutely correct about Pentacost falling on a Sunday, but the whole meaning of the holy-day is lost when people substitute a once a year event for every first day of the week.

    As for "confirming their choice on day of worship" - this is total nonsense. Pentacost was an annual holy-day that fell once a year, not a weekly event after the Sabbath.
    Pentacost *is* and *was* an ANNUAL HOLYDAY. *Not* a weekly one. In every passage in Acts, the preaching and gathering of the disciples is on the Holy Sabbath.

    When Jesus appeared to the disciples the first time, when they acknowledged Him how could they do this *without* the Holy Spirit? Over the next 40 days when He made multiple appearances - how could they believe *without* the Holy Spirit? Did Thomas not have the Holy Spirit when he exclaimed "my Lord and my God!" ??? (John 20:28)

    What else is interesting about Pentacost? It falls right after 7, 7's. 7 in the bible is used for perfection and completeness, and the Disciples would still have been keeping the Sabbath up to Pentacost, counting Sabbaths, and when they preach *after* Pentacost, they are STILL preaching on the Sabbath!

    2) I've already given some links above showing that many many Christians were still keeping Sabbath at least 500 years after the Resurrection of Christ! Here are some more:

    Taken from "From Sabbath to Sunday" by Sam Bacchiocchi

    Pope Innocent I, about 417 A.D, wrote a decretal which became canon law that the church should absolutely not observe the sacraments on Friday or Saturday. Which reveals, of course, that up until this time, a lot of people did. Two contemporary historians, Sozomen (about 440) and Socrates (about 439) confirm this.

    According to Socrates: "Although almost all churches throughout the world celebrated the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this." (ibid. p. 196)
    So as late as the fifth century, those who did not keep the Sabbath were in the minority of Christian churches. It is not saying too much to say that the Roman church was determined to inhibit Sabbath observance. They ordered fasting on the Sabbath and this practice continued among some until after 1000 AD. (ibid. p. 192)

    3) That the Roman Catholic church issued a decree in AD 365 that no Christians shall keep the Sabbath shows that there were plenty of people that were doing this:

    Council of Laodicia, AD 365: Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
     
  18. stranger

    stranger New Member Supporter

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    'Pentecost' is a modern name invented to hide the fact that this is really the 'Feast of Weeks' and it's timing is determined by the scripture, not by modern practices.

    Pentecost simply cannot be a 'Sunday' because it is a Hebrew day, starting at sunset in Jerusalem , not any day of the modern week starting at midnight...

    Thus it may overlap with pagan Sunday, but it is a different way of keeping days altogether, set by God

    Sabbaths are celebrated from evening to evening in scripture :-

    Leviticus 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

    because that is the way god told men to keep time , the evening first ,then the morning , from the beginning it is so, but men CHANGED this ,so it is no longer likely that many will keep God's holy days :-

    Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    Men have even changed the count to seven days for many folks in this world, causing much distress in religious folks , when timekeeping was changed to local time destroying the ability of most to keep holy sabbaths as per scripture

    Mankind found out that evenings do not allow counting of days unless the PLACE is specified where the event is to be recorded - moving all around the earth counting evenings would not give a consistent measure of day counting ... but then neither does local time-keeping , it is full of paradoxes and causes men to disobey God ... it facilitates the keeping of useless [no blessing] pagan days in place of God's holy days and their blessing ... they are blessed because God set them as memorials to his plan to remind people of what will happen in the future ... people do not know the future because of the loss of this knowledge because they no longer keep the days truly, not even most Jews - Jews too accepted paradoxical local time and changed their days!

    Jesus kept sabbaths in Jerusalem , so we know that sunset in Jerusalem is the timing of the beginning of days.

    We know from the contradictions and chaos of local time that it is not God's way of keeping time , and in fact it was only invented under 4 centuries ago to solve a problem, but it created far more problems than it solved !

    God's timekeeping then is the same time for everyone everywhere, none of this nonsense of being able to step in and out of days and sabbaths by crossing one or another of various arbitrarily set and imaginary [and periodically changing!] 'datelines' invented by sinners ,but inconsistent [a person standing at the pole or astride the dateline is 'defined' to be in two days at the same time ... that is truly a contradiction, our method today is simply absurd and causes much pain and confusion about when holy days are ... Gd is not the author of that confusion, men are, and it is now set and changed periodically as international standard! ... a 'standard' which changes! Rather clearly it is not of God ]
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2009
  19. Audiomatic

    Audiomatic Junior Member

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    This is interesting stuff. You guys have certainly done some research. But I thought the question was whether the early Christian church gathered on the Sabbath or on Sunday? So what if Paul preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath? He preached any day of the week! In Troas, "upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together." 1) This doesn't sound to me like a synagogue. 2) We think of Sunday as the first day of the week (any mistranslation notwithstanding). Also, "And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep;" I can't think of a single instance where a person fell asleep in church on the Sabbath. People fall asleep in church on Sunday!

    Glad I could help clear things up. Love!
     
  20. stranger

    stranger New Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the light relief approach ::D

    But the background is important in understanding the true sabbath and why it cannot be Sunday that scripture is talking about when it says that Jesus taught in the synagogues on sabbath ... that there was teaching at other times as opportunity arose and time limitations [before departures] necessitated, is neither here nor there really ...

    I know its unpopular to some ,but Jesus is recorded as being a Jew, of the tribe of Judah , else he could not be the Christ, the Messiah, the 'anointed' [eventual] king of Israel [almost any Jew will even tell one this, and the scripture records it clearly]

    As a Jew [through his mother Mary being a Jew] he kept days from evening to evening , not from midnight to midnight, as defined by God :-

    Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    Leviticus 23:32 ... from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

    If one considers the truth that evening does not determine a time for consistently defining days unless one specifies also where that evening is, it is apparent that by Jesus keeping sabbaths by sunset in Jerusalem that this is the place defining days [by absolute time , not our modern paradoxical local time] ... note that sunset does not occur daily in much of the world .

    Local time has been imposed by 'authority' of men, but God never defined the paradox-creating ever-changing two-fold datelines that men cannot agree upon even today [because they cause men to go against scripture, even Jews to disregard the Torah in favour of obedience to rabbis .. it aint good and it ain't based on the truth .. it causes much upset at deepest level to some religious people ,and its implications affect us all ... in the end one has to choose between divided religious traditional authority and what the scripture shows is of God , cos' they do not agree with each other...

    more relevant to this discussion elsewhere on the site:

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7330670/

    http://www.christianforums.com/t5903472-10/

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7357449-3/
     
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