SSPX: I guess ecumenical councils are no longer infallible

Open Heart

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pdudgeon

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on the one hand it is the Year of Mercy, so now would be an opportune time for them to come back into the fold.
on the other hand, these talks also provide a good way to sound them out to see how real their intentions are.
Nothing is a done deal yet, so let's wait and see what comes out in the wash.
 
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mea kulpa

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The second council of ephesus was intended to be a infallible ecumenical council but it was not infallible it was later over turned by the council of Council of Chalcedon.

Vatican 2 does not even claim to be infallible rather it is a pastoral council that it re states previously declared infallible issues.

"The Second Council of Ephesus (commonly known as the Robber Council of Ephesus) was a Christological church synod in 449 AD convened by Emperor Theodosius II under the presidency of Pope Dioscorus I of Alexandria.[1] It was intended to be anEcumenical Council, but because of the scandalous nature of the proceedings, canon legalities, and the heterodox nature of the canons and decrees as viewed by the orthodox bishops of East and West (and the later ecumenical councils), it was never accepted as ecumenical. It was explicitly repudiated by the fourth and next ecumenical council, the Council of Chalcedon"

The above is from wikipedia

Scandelous nature of the proceedings... one should check out the proceedings at vatican 2 for its scandelous nature
 
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concretecamper

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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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What matters of doctrine in VII do the SSPX not recognize?

I wasn't aware of any doctrinal changes or developments being made at VII .

Wasn't the nature of VII pastoral??
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Wasn't the nature of VII pastoral??
Here's something I just found:
VATICAN II—THE MYTHS
A curious myth has arisen that the Vatican Council overturned many doctrines that the Catholic Church had previously taught.

So far reaching is this revolution supposed to have been that it would almost be pointless, some think, to consult theological books of, say, 30 years ago if one wanted to know whether a particular claim is part of the Church's official doctrinal teaching.

New Church

Since Vatican II, it appears, we are in a new Church. Yet the people who have this outlook are also ready to stress that Vatican II, unlike other General Councils, was pastoral, not dogmatic. Which presents us with an intriguing problem.

How did a Council which wasn't dogmatic manage to change so many teachings? The truth is that Vatican II didn't contradict any official position on doctrine or morals. All that the Church taught when Vatican II began is still Catholic teaching. The changes whether made by the Council or decided upon since, are in practical matters such as the liturgy or discipline, but always leaving doctrine unchanged.

When people say otherwise, they are often at a loss if asked for examples: or if they do offer alleged examples, these turn out to be spurious.

The illusion of change has been promoted by people who have lost their belief in many Catholic positions.

They tell themselves that the things they disagree with are no longer in force, that Vatican II (or perhaps the spirit of Vatican II!) did away with them.

The illusion is strengthened by the notion, very prevalent today, that the Church has few infallible teachings. Someone told me he understands there are only half a dozen or so; while a few bold spirits say there are two!

In fact there are dozens of infallibly defined doctrines, covering a whole range including the nature of God, the Blessed Trinity, creation, the angels, man, original sin, grace, Jesus Christ, redemption, Our Lady, the Church and much more.

Vatican II was in complete harmony with sacred Tradition, but is often distorted to suit a particular view. When one actually reads the documents, without prejudice, one sees how wonderfully traditional they are. However, it is surprisingly how easily one can be influenced by the myth of change.

Take what I said above about the alleged pointlessness of consulting 30 year old books on doctrine.

Even people with an orthodox Catholic outlook may feel dubious about such a book, with no more reason than the fact that it was published before Vatican II.

Source:
https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/VAT-2.HTM
 
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benedictaoo

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The second council of ephesus was intended to be a infallible ecumenical council but it was not infallible it was later over turned by the council of Council of Chalcedon.

Vatican 2 does not even claim to be infallible rather it is a pastoral council that it re states previously declared infallible issues.

"The Second Council of Ephesus (commonly known as the Robber Council of Ephesus) was a Christological church synod in 449 AD convened by Emperor Theodosius II under the presidency of Pope Dioscorus I of Alexandria.[1] It was intended to be anEcumenical Council, but because of the scandalous nature of the proceedings, canon legalities, and the heterodox nature of the canons and decrees as viewed by the orthodox bishops of East and West (and the later ecumenical councils), it was never accepted as ecumenical. It was explicitly repudiated by the fourth and next ecumenical council, the Council of Chalcedon"

The above is from wikipedia

Scandelous nature of the proceedings... one should check out the proceedings at vatican 2 for its scandelous nature

What matters of doctrine in VII do the SSPX not recognize?

I wasn't aware of any doctrinal changes or developments being made at VII .

Wasn't the nature of VII pastoral??
this is what i thought. Nothing new under the sun but just a way to navigate, interpret and apply the faith in this new modern world. My bet is we are going to have a Vlll soon because once again we need to know how to be Catholic in this warped new world.
 
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Open Heart

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There are many in SSPX believe that Jews are cursed and are Christ killers, in violation of Nostra Aetate, for example. As a Jew, I've had my run ins with traditional Catholics who violate this teaching. Bishop Bernard Fellay, SSPX’s superior general, calls the Jews "the enemies of the Church." And how can we ever forget the Bishop Williamson was a notorious holocaust denier? SSPX became a haven for antisemites after Vatican II.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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There are many in SSPX believe that Jews are cursed and are Christ killers, in violation of Nostra Aetate, for example. As a Jew, I've had my run ins with traditional Catholics who violate this teaching. Bishop Bernard Fellay, SSPX’s superior general, calls the Jews "the enemies of the Church." And how can we ever forget the Bishop Williamson was a notorious holocaust denier? SSPX became a haven for antisemites after Vatican II.

There is no excuse of such horrible and unchristian like attitudes and behaviour.
Not to mention how stupid it is to blame our Lords crucifixion on jews living today :doh:

The wisdom of God lead to the offering of God's lamb not the jews themselves.

SSPX is more than just antisemitism though.
 
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benedictaoo

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There are many in SSPX believe that Jews are cursed and are Christ killers, in violation of Nostra Aetate, for example. As a Jew, I've had my run ins with traditional Catholics who violate this teaching. Bishop Bernard Fellay, SSPX’s superior general, calls the Jews "the enemies of the Church." And how can we ever forget the Bishop Williamson was a notorious holocaust denier? SSPX became a haven for antisemites after Vatican II.
(oh lord have mercy) Yeah but. Catholics also mistakable think Judaism is something that's still relevant as if there is something that God is still going to use them to do. That it is supposed to be put on some kind of pedestal. It's a ancient faith that God used and became Christian. There is no plan for them. Jewish people, not the religion is like everyone else who are non Christian. They are in need of salvation and I hope they find it. It will be up to the individual to find Jesus. The religion is not going to be saved.
 
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Open Heart

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There is no excuse of such horrible and unchristian like attitudes and behaviour.
Not to mention how stupid it is to blame our Lords crucifixion on jews living today :doh:

The wisdom of God lead to the offering of God's lamb not the jews themselves.

SSPX is more than just antisemitism though.
It is unconscionable to allow them back in so long as they do not agree to Nostra Aetate.
 
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Open Heart

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benedictaoo

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It is unconscionable to allow them back in so long as they do not agree to Nostra Aetate.
Nope. Nope. Nope. thinking, thinking thinking, do I want to get into this??
You need perspective and context on Nostra Aetate. Yes, this is now and that was then. We are to love Jewish ppl and not hold anything against them. Yes, yes, yes. However, that is not to say that What was 2000 years ago wan't really what it was. It literally is over and has been since 70 AD.

The Jews are cursed as in they were cursed for rejecting Jesus. They disobeyed God and handed His son over to the pagans to be crucified. And you think He did not punish them for that in a real big way?

God pronounced Judgment on them already. Rome destroyed the temple back in 70 AD. The Jews who survived that, the Jews from 70 AD until now are people who are not to be hated or thought of as murdering Jesus but they are not to be thought of as God's special chosen religion still, who He is gonna do something with them still. They are just people who need salvation and I pray they find it. Yes, we offer respect for Judaism, it's where we come from and? I mean there is nothing else. We love Jews like we love everyone.
 
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benedictaoo

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mea kulpa

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There are many in SSPX believe that Jews are cursed and are Christ killers, in violation of Nostra Aetate, for example. As a Jew, I've had my run ins with traditional Catholics who violate this teaching. Bishop Bernard Fellay, SSPX’s superior general, calls the Jews "the enemies of the Church." And how can we ever forget the Bishop Williamson was a notorious holocaust denier? SSPX became a haven for antisemites after Vatican II.

Jesus called the jews the synagog of satan. The popes have called the freemasons the synagog of satan... there is a reason for this... its not something i can easily explain nor is it something that can be explained in a response on here as its far too big.. i can if you wish private message you.
 
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