Sports, Christianity & Tim Tebow

[razeontherock]

What you seem to be forgetting is that my arguments and posts are based on two things:
1) everything that I have observed
2) everything that has been presented to me by Christians - including those in this forum.

Your kidding yourself with #2. You regularly dismiss what we tell you, and even ask the exact same thing again.

 

[razeontherock]

If a person held up a Bible and said, "I credit my success to the words of wisdom which are written in this book", I'd be far less offended than if the person said, "I credit my success to my personal relationship with Jesus, my personal Lord and Savior".

This is your own personal quirk. Along with Plummer - get over it

 

[wildman]

Wait WHAT?!? Dish ...

He died on Dec. 15. I gather the assumption in Publius' comment is that Hitchens has found what lies on the other side.

 

[razeontherock]

He died on Dec. 15. I gather the assumption in Publius' comment is that Hitchens has found what lies on the other side.

Well I'd say RIP except - I know better than to offer vain prayers. There are no atheists in hell!

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Tim Tebow makes an analogy that he praises Jesus as often as he can just as a man may tell his wife he loves her as often as he can. The reason this analogy is poor is because Tebow is praising Jesus publicly, while the typical man may repeatedly tell his wife he loves her, but he won't say it repeatedly in front of a public audience.

Furthermore, if Jesus really does know everything and can hear everything, then it shouldn't make a difference to Tebow whether he praises Jesus publicly or in private.

This is a video where a Christian is living up to exactly what he should be doing. He is humble. He is patient towards his critics. He is unashamed of his love. He is not doing it in vanity or selfishness. He is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. He is respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. He wants to be a good role model. He understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss. He is exemplifying Jesus' moral attitudes in this video.

I don't really know what more you expect of him. Rather than you acknowledging any of this you choose to pick apart a very small part of his speech and then proceed to start another thread about all the Christians you know that don't follow the Bible.

I think you're suffering from a common problem: Confirmation Bias

 

[SolomonVII]

I a world of unbelief, Tebow is showing that it is cool to be in a relationship with God, and nothing to be embarrassed about.
I think he says as much in his video, and it is working actually. Kids are tebowing all over the place and they are not doing it to make fun or him, but they are doing it because they think it is cool and they admire him for this.

 

[razeontherock]

Kids are tebowing all over the place

Now when the verb "to Tebow" is covered in English class, to learn how to conjugate it - that's when it's gone too far!

Would you rather have kids Tebow or Tae Bo?

 

[ferreira]

I think the main issue here is that Tebow keeps speaking out about the Lord which I love. However, other people may feel that he is being "preachy" which I dont agree with.

An example I think is Drew Brees. QB of the New Orleans Saints. He is a Christian and has given his testimony in interviews and even hold bible studies at his house for his teammates. No one is making comments at Brees because he doesnt speak out about his faith as much as Tebow.

The way I see it is, so what if Tebow gives praise to Jesus all the time? For those who dont want to hear about it, they can change the channel

 

[Cieza]

This is a video where a Christian is living up to exactly what he should be doing. He is humble. He is patient towards his critics. He is unashamed of his love. He is not doing it in vanity or selfishness. He is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. He is respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. He wants to be a good role model. He understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss. He is exemplifying Jesus' moral attitudes in this video.

I don't really know what more you expect of him. Rather than you acknowledging any of this you choose to pick apart a very small part of his speech and then proceed to start another thread about all the Christians you know that don't follow the Bible.

I think you're suffering from a common problem: Confirmation Bias

What if he were an atheist who is humble, is patient towards his critics, is unashamed of his love. And let's say this atheist does good not out of vanity or selfishness. And the atheist is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. The atheist is also respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. The atheist wants to be a good role model and understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss.

Would that atheist be any less of a role model than Tim Tebow? If so, why?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

What if he were an atheist who is humble, is patient towards his critics, is unashamed of his love. And let's say this atheist does good not out of vanity or selfishness. And the atheist is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. The atheist is also respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. The atheist wants to be a good role model and understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss.

Would that atheist be any less of a role model than Tim Tebow? If so, why?

A role model is someone you want to be like and emulate so for a Christian youth they would be more likely to see a fellow Christian as a good role model rather than a non-Christian.

Just like if I were an aspiring acrobat I would be more likely to see an accomplished acrobat as a role model simply by virtue of the fact that he is what I'm striving to emulate.

The atheist could certainly live a good life and have some inspirational things to say but since his motives are ultimately centred elsewhere (aka not with God) he would never be as a good role model for a Christian as Tim Tebow. Its no disrespect for the atheist nor is it de-valuing what the atheist may be saying, its just a simple fact because of the way "role model" is defined.

An atheist who says these things could be a great role model for an atheist youth. But atheism is not a well-defined belief system with any sort of moral code or doctrine. Because of this, it becomes a little bit more silly to think of someone "aspiring to be more atheist" or "looking up to another whose behaviours emulate atheist orthopraxy/orthodoxy."

 

[Cieza]

A role model is someone you want to be like and emulate so for a Christian youth they would be more likely to see a fellow Christian as a good role model rather than a non-Christian.

Just like if I were an aspiring acrobat I would be more likely to see an accomplished acrobat as a role model simply by virtue of the fact that he is what I'm striving to emulate.

The atheist could certainly live a good life and have some inspirational things to say but since his motives are ultimately centred elsewhere (aka not with God) he would never be as a good role model for a Christian as Tim Tebow. Its no disrespect for the atheist nor is it de-valuing what the atheist may be saying, its just a simple fact because of the way "role model" is defined.

An atheist who says these things could be a great role model for an atheist youth. But atheism is not a well-defined belief system with any sort of moral code or doctrine. Because of this, it becomes a little bit more silly to think of someone "aspiring to be more atheist" or "looking up to another whose behaviours emulate atheist orthopraxy/orthodoxy."

I think you assumed I was talking about being a role model to a Christian youth. I'm actually talking about being a role model in general.

Let's say there were a player just like Tim Tebow, but he's an atheist and he doesn't give you one clue what his religion he is. This atheist is humble, is patient towards his critics, is unashamed of his love. And let's say this atheist does good not out of vanity or selfishness. And the atheist is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. The atheist is also respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. The atheist wants to be a good role model and understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss.

Now let's say Tim Tebow didn't put on any kind of public displays of his Christianity but in all other ways was the same - especially with his good demeanor and his charity work. Just how would the aforementioned atheist be any less of a role model for children at large than Tim Tebow is?

 

[ChristianT]

I think you assumed I was talking about being a role model to a Christian youth. I'm actually talking about being a role model in general.

Let's say there were a player just like Tim Tebow, but he's an atheist and he doesn't give you one clue what his religion he is. This atheist is humble, is patient towards his critics, is unashamed of his love. And let's say this atheist does good not out of vanity or selfishness. And the atheist is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. The atheist is also respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. The atheist wants to be a good role model and understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss.

Now let's say Tim Tebow didn't put on any kind of public displays of his Christianity but in all other ways was the same - especially with his good demeanor and his charity work. Just how would the aforementioned atheist be any less of a role model for children at large than Tim Tebow is?

The atheist doesn't believe in G*d, and so therefore, the children will think that if you try hard enough, good things will happen and you can do anything. But this isn't truth! If you work hard enough, you will find people that undo the work you try to complete, and you end up trying to keep up all this work (or give up and live a depressed life). While if they are a believer, they show that a true belief in G*d brings a greater treasure to them than hard work alone: compassion, and eternal life. Compassion is possible in the secular world, but is not common. Of course, no offense to anyone like Tebow or Brees or anyone, but an athlete isn't the only role model- material people out there. Parents, teachers, firefighters, etc. Are all perfect role models. And as written,

A role model is someone you want to be like and emulate so for a Christian youth they would be more likely to see a fellow Christian as a good role model rather than a non-Christian.

A christian youth usually looks up to a christian role model. An atheist, etc. youth usually looks up to atheist role models. Of course there are always exceptions. If you can find me one athlete that has the same description you gave, tell me. As far as can be seen, most athletes are in it for some general things:

*money
*women
*fame
*win the game
*a way to get into college

Very few times do you see characters like Tebow and Brees that are football players for what looks like the fun of it and honoring G*d.

I guess you ask Cieza, if an atheist can be a role model. Sure, but not everyone (Christians and non-) would look up to this person. A lot of youths and adults even, look up to dictators and such.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I think you assumed I was talking about being a role model to a Christian youth. I'm actually talking about being a role model in general.

Let's say there were a player just like Tim Tebow, but he's an atheist and he doesn't give you one clue what his religion he is. This atheist is humble, is patient towards his critics, is unashamed of his love. And let's say this atheist does good not out of vanity or selfishness. And the atheist is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. The atheist is also respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. The atheist wants to be a good role model and understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss.

Now let's say Tim Tebow didn't put on any kind of public displays of his Christianity but in all other ways was the same - especially with his good demeanor and his charity work. Just how would the aforementioned atheist be any less of a role model for children at large than Tim Tebow is?

You're comparing apples and oranges. Both the atheist and Tim Tebow are good role models. They're both good role models in general. But they are both better role models for certain groups depending on the context.

If Tim Tebow didn't put on his public displays and didn't make his faith public then he would still be a good role model in general but it would be silly to say he's a good role model for Christians if no one is even aware that he is a Christian. This isn't devaluing the atheist, nor is it devaluing Tebow's faith; its just a fact by virtue of the definition of "role model".

I'll try an analogy:

Joe and Bob are both working hard to get rich. Joe wants to get rich so that he can donate all his money to a charity which helps homeless people. Bob wants to get rich so that he donate all his money to a charity which helps people in Africa with HIV.

By my own personal convictions/beliefs/opinions, I am working hard because I want to get rich so I can help homeless people.

In this case, Joe is a better role model for me because we both have the same motives and end goal. Even if Joe and Bob both go about getting rich by exactly the same method, I would still maintain that Joe is a better role model because of our shared motives and goal.

So it is with Tim Tebow being a better role model for Christians simply by virtue of the fact that he shares the same overall goal and motive as Christians even if his actions perfectly mirror an atheists'.

 

[Cieza]

The atheist doesn't believe in G*d, and so therefore, the children will think that if you try hard enough, good things will happen and you can do anything. But this isn't truth! If you work hard enough, you will find people that undo the work you try to complete, and you end up trying to keep up all this work (or give up and live a depressed life). While if they are a believer, they show that a true belief in G*d brings a greater treasure to them than hard work alone: compassion, and eternal life. Compassion is possible in the secular world, but is not common. Of course, no offense to anyone like Tebow or Brees or anyone, but an athlete isn't the only role model- material people out there. Parents, teachers, firefighters, etc. Are all perfect role models. And as written,


A christian youth usually looks up to a christian role model. An atheist, etc. youth usually looks up to atheist role models. Of course there are always exceptions. If you can find me one athlete that has the same description you gave, tell me. As far as can be seen, most athletes are in it for some general things:

*money
*women
*fame
*win the game
*a way to get into college

Very few times do you see characters like Tebow and Brees that are football players for what looks like the fun of it and honoring G*d.

I guess you ask Cieza, if an atheist can be a role model. Sure, but not everyone (Christians and non-) would look up to this person. A lot of youths and adults even, look up to dictators and such.

I think you overlooked my point that neither of the two equally good role models in my example let anyone know what their religious convictions are. So which one is a better role model for children in general? The Christian athlete or the Atheist athlete?

Does Drew Brees glorify God and/or Jesus after every game? What if you found out Drew Brees were an atheist? Would you then think anything less of his giving back to the community?

 

[Cieza]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Both the atheist and Tim Tebow are good role models. They're both good role models in general. But they are both better role models for certain groups depending on the context.

If Tim Tebow didn't put on his public displays and didn't make his faith public then he would still be a good role model in general but it would be silly to say he's a good role model for Christians if no one is even aware that he is a Christian. This isn't devaluing the atheist, nor is it devaluing Tebow's faith; its just a fact by virtue of the definition of "role model".

I'll try an analogy:

Joe and Bob are both working hard to get rich. Joe wants to get rich so that he can donate all his money to a charity which helps homeless people. Bob wants to get rich so that he donate all his money to a charity which helps people in Africa with HIV.

By my own personal convictions/beliefs/opinions, I am working hard because I want to get rich so I can help homeless people.

In this case, Joe is a better role model for me because we both have the same motives and end goal. Even if Joe and Bob both go about getting rich by exactly the same method, I would still maintain that Joe is a better role model because of our shared motives and goal.

So it is with Tim Tebow being a better role model for Christians simply by virtue of the fact that he shares the same overall goal and motive as Christians even if his actions perfectly mirror an atheists'.

How could someone who does precisely the same good deeds as Tebow but doesn't let anyone know he's a Christian be any less of a role model to Christian children than Tebow is?

I think I should rephrase my question. Let's say two athletes are both class acts. They both are humble, patient toward their critics, unashamed of any love they have, don't do good out of vanity of selfishness, are well-spoken, are reasonably intelligent, are respectful and tolerant of others views and clearly want to be a good role model and understand that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss. But one is an Atheist and one is a Christian - but neither let anyone know. Which one is a better role model for Christian children?

How much money does Tim Tebow make as a football player? How much money do you think Tebow would make if he didn't possess the skills to be a professional football player? Take the difference between those two dollar figures. If Tebow isn't giving 100% of the difference back to the community, then isn't he using his "gift from God" to enhance his lifestyle? I'd bet anything he isn't giving that much back to the community, which would mean he's abusing his "gift from God" to live a more lavish lifestyle.

 

[razeontherock]

How could someone who does precisely the same good deeds as Tebow but doesn't let anyone know he's a Christian be any less of a role model to Christian children than Tebow is?

Ummm - because they're not a Christian?

Silly question.

 

[Heidiii]

Cieza, do you give all your earnings that you don't absolutely require to survive to charity? If not, then you're abusing YOUR gifts from God. (Whatever skills you have).

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

How could someone who does precisely the same good deeds as Tebow but doesn't let anyone know he's a Christian be any less of a role model to Christian children than Tebow is?

Because...they aren't a Christian

How do you define role model? Clearly we're defining it differently.

I think I should rephrase my question. Let's say two athletes are both class acts. They both are humble, patient toward their critics, unashamed of any love they have, don't do good out of vanity of selfishness, are well-spoken, are reasonably intelligent, are respectful and tolerant of others views and clearly want to be a good role model and understand that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss. But one is an Atheist and one is a Christian - but neither let anyone know. Which one is a better role model for Christian children?

Its irrelevant if they don't make their underlying motives and goals known. An atheist can be a good role model just as a Christian can. I don't understand what you're getting at.

A role model is someone that you want to emulate. A Christian may want to emulate an atheist but only to a certain point because at some point their is going to be a break down in the different way their philosophies are aligned.

If neither the Christian or the atheist make their philosophy/faith known, then it is just that...an unknown and has no bearing on the discussion.

How much money does Tim Tebow make as a football player? How much money do you think Tebow would make if he didn't possess the skills to be a professional football player? Take the difference between those two dollar figures. If Tebow isn't giving 100% of the difference back to the community, then isn't he using his "gift from God" to enhance his lifestyle? I'd bet anything he isn't giving that much back to the community, which would mean he's abusing his "gift from God" to live a more lavish lifestyle.

You have a serious beef with him. Can't you just respect him for the way he is living? He's not perfect nor does he seem to claim to be. A role model doesn't have to be perfect in order to be a good role model...

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I think you assumed I was talking about being a role model to a Christian youth. I'm actually talking about being a role model in general.

Let's say there were a player just like Tim Tebow, but he's an atheist and he doesn't give you one clue what his religion he is. This atheist is humble, is patient towards his critics, is unashamed of his love. And let's say this atheist does good not out of vanity or selfishness. And the atheist is well-spoken and seems reasonably intelligent. The atheist is also respectful and tolerant of others' views while maintaining his convictions. The atheist wants to be a good role model and understands that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss.

Now let's say Tim Tebow didn't put on any kind of public displays of his Christianity but in all other ways was the same - especially with his good demeanor and his charity work. Just how would the aforementioned atheist be any less of a role model for children at large than Tim Tebow is?

We actually have an example in the real world for that.

Pat Tillman was an atheist.

 

[Incariol]

How could someone who does precisely the same good deeds as Tebow but doesn't let anyone know he's a Christian be any less of a role model to Christian children than Tebow is?

....Because obviously being a Christian is a quality in a role model for Christians.

I think I should rephrase my question. Let's say two athletes are both class acts. They both are humble, patient toward their critics, unashamed of any love they have, don't do good out of vanity of selfishness, are well-spoken, are reasonably intelligent, are respectful and tolerant of others views and clearly want to be a good role model and understand that life is bigger than a sport or a win or a loss. But one is an Atheist and one is a Christian - but neither let anyone know. Which one is a better role model for Christian children?

The Christian, obviously, though the atheist is still a great role model in her own right.

How much money does Tim Tebow make as a football player? How much money do you think Tebow would make if he didn't possess the skills to be a professional football player? Take the difference between those two dollar figures. If Tebow isn't giving 100% of the difference back to the community, then isn't he using his "gift from God" to enhance his lifestyle? I'd bet anything he isn't giving that much back to the community, which would mean he's abusing his "gift from God" to live a more lavish lifestyle.

We don't really care, Cieza. If you want to make negative speculations about Tebow, that is your business. It doesn't really interest the rest of us at all.