Spiritually Dead

[Optimax]

What do you think "spiritually dead" means?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That it's not a phrase used in Scripture as far as I'm aware. But insofar as it could be a meaningful expression it refers to our mortal and sinful state. We are, due to sin and mortality, in a sense dead; as St. Paul writes, "dead in your transgressions"--we are walking corpses, barely animated; but in Christ we are quickened by new life, life breathed by God, and receiving the Holy Spirit who makes us alive to God in this life by grace and who will quicken our very mortal flesh in the resurrection "this mortal must put on immortality...".

We are therefore dead in our death--in the inevitability that we will die, perish, cease to have breath in our lungs.

"Spiritual death" could be very misleading, the present death Scripture says we are dead in is linked to actual death--the death of the body. But in Christ we are given the promise of resurrection, that this perishing, mortal frame is, by the promise of God, going to be raised up on the last day; and the present reality of this promise is the Holy Spirit present in us, that gift which we received in our Baptism by which we were crucified, dead, and buried with Christ and raised to new life with Him to the hope of eternal life in the world to come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

What do you think "spiritually dead" means?

The RCC, along with Aquinas, teaches that man is born "spiritually dead", referred to as the "death of the soul". This occurred for all humanity with the Fall, where man was exiled from/separated from God. From then on man would lack the direct knowledge of God enjoyed by Adam & Eve in Eden. He would be lost, not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if anything, and where he's going, if anywhere. Only reconciliation with God can resolve this disorder; man was made for communion with God. This death is the reason why we need to be "born again", or "born from above".

 

[Steeno7]

What do you think "spiritually dead" means?

The absence of the Spirit of Life within our own spirit.

 

[Optimax]

The RCC, along with Aquinas, teaches that man is born "spiritually dead", referred to as the "death of the soul". This occurred for all humanity with the Fall, where man was exiled from/separated from God. From then on man would lack the direct knowledge of God enjoyed by Adam & Eve in Eden. He would be lost, not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if anything, and where he's going, if anywhere. Only reconciliation with God can resolve this disorder; man was made for communion with God. This death is the reason why we need to be "born again", or "born from above".

The RCC, along with Aquinas, teaches that man is born "spiritually dead", referred to as the "death of the soul". This occurred for all humanity with the Fall, where man was exiled from/separated from God. From then on man would lack the direct knowledge of God enjoyed by Adam & Eve in Eden. He would be lost, not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if anything, and where he's going, if anywhere. Only reconciliation with God can resolve this disorder; man was made for communion with God. This death is the reason why we need to be "born again", or "born from above".

Every man is certainly born "spiritually dead".

Reconciliation with God is certainly the remedy for "spiritually dead" people.

2 Cor says that God was in Christ.

The purpose was to reconcile the world (People) to himself.

2 Cor 5:19-20
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. KJV

That reconciliation occurs when a person is saved/born again (Rom 10:9).

Spiritual death is separation from God.

Every person is born separated from God and is in need of being reconciled to Him.

It is not forced on anyone.

Nor is it automatic.

It is a choice.

Consider this.

When Jesus was on the cross.

Remember what He said?

Matt 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? KJV

Jesus cried out on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The word that is translated "hast thou forsaken" is NT:1459 meaning to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert

NT:1459
egkataleipo (eng-kat-al-i'-po); from NT:1722 and NT:2641; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:

KJV - forsake, leave.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Jesus said why hast thou forsaken me, deserted me, leave me behind in this place.

Some translations say "why did you abandon me".

God abandoned, deserted, left Jesus behind.

Jesus was separated from God at 3:00, which is the ninth hour, while on the cross.

 

[Optimax]

Spiritual death is separation from God.

At 3:00 in the afternoon.

Jesus was separated from God and He cried out My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.

At 3:00 in the afternoon.

Jesus experienced spiritual death.

 

[Optimax]

Spiritual death is separation from God.

At 3:00 in the afternoon.

Jesus was separated from God and He cried out My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.

At 3:00 in the afternoon.

Jesus experienced spiritual death.

What caused Jesus to experience spiritual death (separation from God)?

2 Cor 5:21 reveals the cause.

2 Cor 5:21-6:1
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV

Jesus never sinned.

Not once.

But on the cross God "made" Him to be sin.

Lot's of differing opinions on what "made Him to be sin" means.

Sin does not refer to the acts of sin that we do.

Sin does refer to the root cause of why we commit acts of sin.

The phrase "made to be sin" presents a picture for some that is hard to understand or even see.

If our sin was going to be paid for and it was, in full.

Then the root cause of sin had to be addressed.

What is the root cause of sin in every person?

 

[Optimax]

What caused Jesus to experience spiritual death (separation from God)?

2 Cor 5:21 reveals the cause.

2 Cor 5:21-6:1
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV

Jesus never sinned.

Not once.

But on the cross God "made" Him to be sin.

Lot's of differing opinions on what "made Him to be sin" means.

Sin does not refer to the acts of sin that we do.

Sin does refer to the root cause of why we commit acts of sin.

The phrase "made to be sin" presents a picture for some that is hard to understand or even see.

If our sin was going to be paid for and it was, in full.

Then the root cause of sin had to be addressed.

What is the root cause of sin in every person?

There is a root cause of the actions of sin that every person commits.

The actions of sin which is the actual "doing" sin, such as lying, adultery, gluttony, hate, etc.

The reason people sin is because of the root cause of sin in every person that is not saved/born again Rom 10:9.

Once a person is saved/born again they do not automatically stop the acts of sin even though the root cause has been removed.

The spirit is a man is the part of the man that is saved.

Old habits have to be overcome with the power of the word of God.

A person that is not saved/born again only has will power with which to attempt to overcome the committing of sin in their lives.

Will power does not get it.

God made Jesus to be sin.

2 Cor 5:21 said so.

Man has the root cause of sin in his spirit.

In order to pay for our sin.

Jesus had to to made to be sin with the root cause of sin in His spirit.

Otherwise the penalty would not be paid for in full.

What happened when Jesus was made to be sin?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What do you think "spiritually dead" means?

Physical death, Spiritual death, and the second death. What are they? Are they in any way different?

I assure you... dead people are most certainly dead. At the moment of death their fate is sealed. They have already chosen heaven or hell and are awaiting judgement.

I would say one example are the Jews of today.
They are essentially "severed" from Christ because they still follow the OC Law of Moses instead of the NC Law of Christ...

Romans 9:
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Gala 5:
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.…
Gala 6:
2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself


.

 

[Wordkeeper]

What do you think "spiritually dead" means?

The writers of Scripture used flowery speech because they did not have the technical vocabulary we have today. Sometimes they used the same word to mean different things. Sarx, the flesh is used to mean:

the sinful nature , as in "The deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these" (Galatians 5:19-21),

or human effort: "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Galatians 3:3.

Similarly, death can also mean different things in Scripture.

These are the states man is found in:

Incompetent spiritually incompetent bodily.

Competent spiritual and incompetent bodily.

Competent spiritually and competent bodily.

Adam was incompetent spiritually and bodily. He was like the minor who could not be prosecuted under criminal law because he was underage. The body did impulsive things and the mind did not have the capacity for critical judgment.

How did God plant, nurture, prune and wait for His garden to bear fruit?

Remember how you learned to drive. An adult drove you to a large empty parking lot and put you into the driver's seat. You wandered all over the lot, doing things that would have got you a zillion tickets. Finally, you learned how to control the car and were able to move from point A to point B, at the right speed and along the path you set out for yourself. Now you are taught the traffic rules and let out on a quiet public road. As you drive along, you are told what rules you remembered to follow and what rules you forgot.

Just imagine if you were told what the rules were (received knowledge of good and evil) on the first day. You would have been paralyzed into a state of confusion, realised you were unequipped, naked.

Not only that, you would have not only broken a zillion rules, you would have been AWARE of them.

Did Adam break a law? Not really. Remember a minor is immune from prosecution. What Adam did was ignore a warning.

Don't touch the stove, you'll get burnt.

Don't run on the staircase, you'll fall.

When minors, or anybody, ignore warnings, they suffer the consequences. No one is immune from the laws, or principles, of physics. When a moving object meets another object, the object with the bigger mass decides the outcome!

In the case of God warning Adam he would die if he acquired knowledge of good and evil, Adam really did DIE.

He stopped growing.

Just think what would have happened to our imaginary driver in the parking lot if he was penalized for all the rules he broke. He would have his driving training stopped, killed off.

In just the same way, Adam suffered the consequences of his action when he did the thing that removed his immunity. Without learning how to subdue the world, control his body, he was a sinner..He could no longer be in union with God. The very thing he needed to learn how to control his body.

Spiritually, we are all alive. We know right from wrong. We also know we have a body which we do not have the ability to control.

What does being born again mean?

It means we realise we need God to bring that body under control.

How do we come to that realisation?

Well, Scripture says that God put us in different places and different conditions and stirred us, so that somehow, we may seek Him out and turn to Him.

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

To those who turned to Him, He opened their minds so that they would know what their situation was.

He also revealed to them how He would rescue them, by delivering them into a body that would obey their spirits. Our present bodies are foreign countries, we are sojourners, aliens:

Hebrews 11:19All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Even Joshua could not lead them into that country:

Hebrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

However, Christ, our High Priest did the work that enabled us to be in union with God, be in His presence, by being IN Him, the real Promised Land, through the Spirit, given when He ascended on high:

http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-shadow-of-christ-in-the-law-of-moses/

Quote
In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

That Land, the new humanity, which we must enter, is present, in Christ.

Romans 7:22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Optimax]

How do you believe a person is born again?

 

[Wordkeeper]

How do you believe a person is born again?

People are born again from tasting of the Holy Spirit and passing trials. A good example is Joshua. It was not blind faith, but remembering what God had done in the past. That should count, shouldn't it, for an adult?

He witnessed how God delivered Israel out of Egypt with a powerful arm. He understood how God tested Israel's faith, their oath to switch from loyalty to Egypt to God by depriving her of water and food. He could see the Land God had promised to Israel, whilst those who wavered could not.

Number 14:20So the LORD said, “I have pardoned them according to your word; 21but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it. 25“Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites live in the valleys; turn tomorrow and set out to the wilderness by the way of the Red Sea.”

26The LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27“How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who are grumbling against Me? I have heard the complaints of the sons of Israel, which they are making against Me. 28“Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the LORD, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; 29your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me. 30‘Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

The writers of Scripture used flowery speech because they did not have the technical vocabulary we have today. Sometimes they used the same word to mean different things. Sarx, the flesh is used to mean:

the sinful nature , as in "The deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these" (Galatians 5:19-21),

or human effort: "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Galatians 3:3.

Similarly, when the writers used the word spirit, pneuma or nephesh they meant what we would today call the ego, id, psyche or soul.

In the case of Joshua, obviously God meant that Joshua had a mature mind, an obedient or loyal spirit. He had observed God's goodness and power and faithfulness and decided to remain with God. He had been born of the spirit, the noble part of man and not of the flesh, the part that is driven by the law of the jungle, selfishness, self centredness, always fearful and wanting certainty, like children.

Joshua 24:1Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel and for their heads and their judges and their officers; and they presented themselves before God. 2Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely, Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods. 3‘Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River, and led him through all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac. 4‘To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau, and to Esau I gave Mount Seir to possess it; but Jacob and his sons went down to Egypt. 5‘Then I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt by what I did in its midst; and afterward I brought you out. 6‘I brought your fathers out of Egypt, and you came to the sea; and Egypt pursued your fathers with chariots and horsemen to the Red Sea. 7‘But when they cried out to the LORD, He put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them and covered them; and your own eyes saw what I did in Egypt. And you lived in the wilderness for a long time. 8‘Then I brought you into the land of the Amorites who lived beyond the Jordan, and they fought with you; and I gave them into your hand, and you took possession of their land when I destroyed them before you. 9‘Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and fought against Israel, and he sent and summoned Balaam the son of Beor to curse you. 10‘But I was not willing to listen to Balaam. So he had to bless you, and I delivered you from his hand. 11‘You crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho; and the citizens of Jericho fought against you, and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Girgashite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. Thus I gave them into your hand. 12‘Then I sent the hornet before you and it drove out the two kings of the Amorites from before you, but not by your sword or your bow. 13‘I gave you a land on which you had not labored, and cities which you had not built, and you have lived in them; you are eating of vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.’

14“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Why do some people reject the voice of God when He calls as did the Israelites? Because they loved to feed the flesh, loved the darkness and they hated the light, they were fearful and cowardly and prefered to have certainty rather than have hope, like spoiled children.

This is excusable in a child, but an adult must choose, must leave the milk food and start on solid food, else they will never attain what God created them for.

Truly, it is as Jesus said of them,

We played the flute for you and you did not dance, the dirge and you did not mourn.

 

[Optimax]

Rom 10:9 says very clearly how to be saved/born again.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Rom 10:9 says very clearly how to be saved/born again.

I repeat, Joshua was born again, the other Israelites, except Caleb were not.

They could see the kingdom of God, the others could only see danger. It was what they experienced and valued about God, His revelation about Himself, that they kept in focus, allowed to influence their spirit, rather than the single minded determination to preserve themselves.

Compared to the rest, they were New Persons, not garden variety , play it safe cowards. Which, let's admit it, most ordinary , non born again human beings, are.

 

[Optimax]

It was impossible for any of the OT men of God to be born again.

Jesus had not come yet to pay the penalty for sin.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It was impossible for any of the OT men of God to be born again.

Jesus had not come yet to pay the penalty for sin.

All that's required to be born again is to take God's promise seriously, see things through God's eyes. Born from above is just flowery speech.

International Standard Version
Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you emphatically, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

NET Bible
Jesus replied, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."


That was the difference between David and the army of Israel that shivered in front of Goliath. David called then the army of the living God. He could see what they couldn't see.

Unless you are born again you can't even see the kingdom of God (or its army).

 

[Optimax]

The term "born again/born from above was never mentioned in the OT.

Why?

Because there was no being born again/from above during OT times.

People could not be born again/from above until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

The 11 apostles were the first to be born again/from above.

It is recorded in John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: KJV

 

[Wordkeeper]

Did Caleb have a spirit that he was born with, or did witnessing God's powerful deliverance change his spirit?

Numbers 14:24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

The term "born again/born from above was never mentioned in the OT.

Why?

Because there was no being born again/from above during OT times.

People could not be born again/from above until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

The 11 apostles were the first to be born again/from above.

It is recorded in John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: KJV

 

[Optimax]

Did Caleb have a spirit that he was born with, or did witnessing God's powerful deliverance change his spirit?

Numbers 14:24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

The word translated spirit in Numbers 14:24 is OT # OT:7381.

The word as used depicts disposition of mind or attitude.

The noun
rûaµ
, further, depicts disposition of mind or attitude. Caleb's spirit was different from that of his faithless colleagues (Num 14:24;
(from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright © 1980 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

Caleb had a different attitude.

Num 14:24
But because my servant Caleb has a different attitude and has remained loyal to me, I will bring him into the land which he explored, and his descendants will possess the land
TEV

 

[Open Heart]

Spiritually dead means your relationship with God is kapoots. You aren't getting your praises, thoughts, and needs said to God, you aren't loving your neighbor as yourself, and you've put up blocks so that God cannot extend grace to you. If you do not repent, you are in danger of hell. The Prodigal son was spiritually dead.