Speaking out on Marriage

[Kristos]

Again I'm giving you first hand knowledge from someone who knows her personally and goes to her parish.

She absolutely does care about people and their souls, but it will do no good to try to legislate away the allowance to marry someone of your own gender.

What we have to do as Orthodox is to start actually living the Orthodox life, start supporting couples and families within the Church rather than just spitting out enclycicals from time to time. I also think we really need to re-evaluate how we approach divorce and contraception.

So you are saying that there is a difference between what she wrote and what she really thinks?

The only thing that we can really talk about is what she wrote.

 

[Kristos]

as for smoking, some people do believe we shouldn't do anything about other people smoking and that its completely their right to smoke if they want to. They think the government has already infringed too much on peoples private lives in regards to all the restrictions on smoking.

Does it really help people to stop smoking if you legislate every move someone makes? The same question can be asked about homosexuality.

We need to engage and reach out and evangelize the world around us, but it has to go beyond politics and legislation.

Regardless, society seems relatively comfortable with recognizing that smoking is bad - not just for the individual, but for everyone - while at the same time acknowledging that some people will still do it, and that is their right - but that doesn't change the recognition that smoking is bad.

 

[GregConstantine]

Then there's nothing more to say.

 

[Kristos]

Then there's nothing more to say.

Live and let live.

 

[GregConstantine]

umm, no not exactly...

 

[jckstraw72]

how long until someone posts Wings or Guns N Roses?!

 

[rusmeister]

Again I'm giving you first hand knowledge from someone who knows her personally and goes to her parish.

She absolutely does care about people and their souls, but it will do no good to try to legislate away the allowance to marry someone of your own gender.

What we have to do as Orthodox is to start actually living the Orthodox life, start supporting couples and families within the Church rather than just spitting out enclycicals from time to time. I also think we really need to re-evaluate how we approach divorce and contraception.

I do not doubt that she does care about her neighbor, and I understand that we can disagree about political solutions. And I completely agree that divorce, fornication and contraception are issues that enable the public tolerance of sodomy.
But I do think that your saying "of your own gender" is one of the chief problems. I think her dismissal of the linguistic problem insufficiently informed; I really do think I understand the linguistic and philosophical aspects of the issue better than she does. "Gender" is flat-out the wrong word, as are all of the evil euphemisms for fornication, adultery and sodomy, and the use of those words enable wrong understandings of the issues and make their social tolerance possible in the first place.

It does so matter what you legislate; even at this late date, especially in a society where people (wrongly) tend to equate what is legal with what is moral. Legislating against any genuine immorality (unlike Prohibition, a great example of legislation against a thing not immoral at its base) slows its spread, and at the
very least, suggests to the general population that it IS wrong. It is very true that it is better to have common sense than law, but when common sense is lost law may provide a temporary stopgap. That means that it would be good to discourage divorce, adultery and fornication by law as well. And I mean this in addition to your wise and true suggestion that we should actually live the Orthodox life; not instead of it.

 

[rusmeister]

Regardless, society seems relatively comfortable with recognizing that smoking is bad - not just for the individual, but for everyone - while at the same time acknowledging that some people will still do it, and that is their right - but that doesn't change the recognition that smoking is bad.

The very comparison to smoking underlines what GKC called "the strengthening of minor morals":

It is the primary things which have been ignored, and the secondary things which have been emphasized all out of proportion. “If there is one thing worse than the modern weakening of major morals,” says Chesterton, “it is the modern strengthening of minor morals. Thus it is considered more withering to accuse a man of bad taste than of bad ethics. Cleanliness is not next to godliness nowadays, for cleanliness is made an essential and godliness is regarded as an offence.” Chesterton can see from a century ago that the world was headed to a time when smoking a cigar would be considered more offensive than performing an abortion.

Lecture 14-Tremendous Trifles

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I agree with the timeless teachings of the Orthodox Church, as reflected in the broad consensus of the Fathers, that homosexual activity is a grave sin. There is really no case for "progressive revelation" on this issue. That sounds like Roman Catholic thinking, but it's not Orthodox.

That said, should all sinful activity be illegal? If homosexuals want to contractually commit to their sinful lifestyle with another person, should we try to prohibit it? I do not see the Early Church spending time trying to prohibit sin legislatively (at least until St. Constantine). It seems to me that a characteristic of a free society is to permit things that we Orthodox don't agree with, as long as the State protects our basic rights of life, liberty and property.

As long as the State doesn't force me to celebrate gay marriage, we shouldn't force people not to.

The Church should thus not "live and let live". It should help those caught in a lifestyle of sin, including homosexuality. But the State: yes, live and let live.

 

[All4Christ]

I have been torn about what is right for us to do as Orthodox Christians in relationship to legislation of morality. I likely will always support the push to stop legalization of homosexual marriage, due to my political leanings following the lines of my moral beliefs.

That said, I...sympathize...with those who believe that State handling of moral matters should not be directly tied to the way we believe morally, as Jesus4Madrid stated above. The big exception to this understanding of that viewpoint, however, would be abortion, since children cannot protect themselves. The effect of someone choosing a spiritually damaging moral choice is significant - but at least the damage is done to themselves (mostly), whereas abortion causes damage both to themselves, and to an innocent baby.

Speaking of the innocent - therein lies a reason for supporting efforts to keep homosexual marriages from being legalized...the children of those who are a part of a homosexual marriage have to experience the effects of that marriage...protect the children...protect the innocent...protect the helpless.

Incidentally, I don't think these morality decisions should belong to the federal government - but should belong to the states . It would be a lot easier to get laws passed and would potentially allow more people to be protected.

Ultimately, I think the problem we face with "traditional marriage" being redefined - is that "traditional marriage" doesn't even reflect what marriage is to us as Orthodox Christians. There is an underlying problem of combining legality status of marriage with the religious sacrament of marriage. This muddies the waters before we even approach homosexual marriage. The same problem exists with having "civil" marriages when someone lives together for a certain amount of time. We have marriage tv episodes where is is all focused on the dress, a pretty ceremony, and a nice commitment between two people to be a committed partnership (which may dissolve at any time!)

If we were somehow able to remove the legality of marriage from the sacramental marriage, it would take away a lot of the reasons for why people support homosexual marriage. I can sympathize with people wanting to choose who has legal rights similar to that of those who are married. I may want (if I wasn't married) to have my sister have those rights. I should be able to easily give those legal rights to whoever I want. I don't think that the State has ANY right to say what we can or cannot do in our faith regarding those who support or participate in a belief we disagree with (as in celebrating / having a ceremony for a homosexual marriage).

I feel like our efforts would be better suited towards helping define marriage as it should be, irrespective of whatever problematic version of marriage is currently being examined, whether it be homosexual marriage, abuse, civil marriage, cohabitation before marriage, etc. Also, differentiating between the legality and sacramental nature of marriage is key.

Can this be done? I don't know. :-/

 

[GregConstantine]

"I really do think I understand the linguistic and philosophical aspects of the issue better than she does."

Oh you do? You can really come across as a suck up Mr. Know It All sometimes.

"oh, see how smart I am!, I'm older than you, so that means I'm so much smarter than you! Oh! Look at me! I keep quoting Chesterton over and over and over again, that shows how smart I am!"

Can you please stop quoting Chesterton obsessively? He was not even Orthodox!

I know her personally, for many years, yet that doesn't even seem to mean anything to you people. You think you know things because you read about them. Well guess what, you don't, and you are wrong, you Rusmeister and you too Kristos.

I guess first hand personal knowledge of another person doesnt mean anything to you people.

You ought to be ashamed of yourselves!

Is this not gossiping by speculating about another person and painting her/him in a bad light, saying things that are not true, and ignoring personal, first hand knowledge?

 

[All4Christ]

"I really do think I understand the linguistic and philosophical aspects of the issue better than she does." Oh you do? You can really come across as a suck up Mr. Know It All sometimes. "oh, see how smart I am!, I'm older than you, so that means I'm so much smarter than you! Oh! Look at me! I keep quoting Chesterton over and over and over again, that shows how smart I am!" Can you please stop quoting Chesterton obsessively? He was not even Orthodox! I know her personally, for many years, yet that doesn't even seem to mean anything to you people. You think you know things because you read about them. Well guess what, you don't, and you are wrong, you Rusmeister and you too Kristos. I guess first hand personal knowledge of another person doesnt mean anything to you people. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves! Is this not gossiping by speculating about another person and painting her/him in a bad light, saying things that are not true, and ignoring personal, first hand knowledge?

I've wished many times that I knew her personally, or even met her in person! She's always been an encouragement to see her as a woman making a big difference in Orthodox teaching, evangelism and writing.

 

[GregConstantine]

"As long as the State doesn't force me to celebrate gay marriage, we shouldn't force people not to.

The Church should thus not "live and let live". It should help those caught in a lifestyle of sin, including homosexuality. But the State: yes, live and let live."

According to some people on this board Jesus4Madrid, you are now a supporter of homosexual marriage and you have a poor social/linguistic/legal understanding of these issues!

 

[GregConstantine]

Oh wait Jesus4Madrid! You say you agree with the Church's teachings on marriage? That doesn't matter, because I read just a few lines of what you wrote and because I'm so much older/wiser/smarter than you, I'm still right in my conclusions about you. Nevermind anything else anyone tells me!

 

[GregConstantine]

Frederica did come out and said she didn't word what she wrote originally very well, and that she admits it led to a misunderstanding of her original intent. I suppose that doesn't mean much to you guys either. So there's no real point in me bringing that up.

 

[rusmeister]

"I really do think I understand the linguistic and philosophical aspects of the issue better than she does."

Oh you do? You can really come across as a suck up Mr. Know It All sometimes.

"oh, see how smart I am!, I'm older than you, so that means I'm so much smarter than you! Oh! Look at me! I keep quoting Chesterton over and over and over again, that shows how smart I am!"

Can you please stop quoting Chesterton obsessively? He was not even Orthodox!

I know her personally, for many years, yet that doesn't even seem to mean anything to you people. You think you know things because you read about them. Well guess what, you don't, and you are wrong, you Rusmeister and you too Kristos.

I guess first hand personal knowledge of another person doesnt mean anything to you people.

You ought to be ashamed of yourselves!

Is this not gossiping by speculating about another person and painting her/him in a bad light, saying things that are not true, and ignoring personal, first hand knowledge?

Hi, Greg,
I agree that assertion is not proof. I have carefully read everything she has said, and frankly, think I see through and past it. When she dismissively rejects concerns about the word "gender" she displays no knowledge of the etymology and usage of the word over history, which extensive knowledge of literature would cure. She speaks, in general, as if the usage was confined to what she has experienced in her lifetime, with no particular reference to historical usage.

I speak, as Kristos pointed out, about what she says, and say nothing at all about her character, which I assume the best of, so no, I am neither gossiping nor ashamed to comment on her words. You, on the other hand, seem to be confusing the issue of her character (which I am quite sure is that of a sincere Orthodox Christian seeking repentance, to love one's neighbor, and theosis) and the effect of what she says. Your personal experience of her has nothing to do with the price of tea in China regarding what she says about the issue. I think that so far, I have in no way mischaracterized what she has said, and you are very quick to take personal offense. I grant that she is a very kind, and generally reasonable person, and I usually find it interesting to listen to her, and often download her podcasts.

If I think Chesterton speaks truth as taught by the Orthodox Church for 2,000 years, then I will go on quoting him, not because Chesterton said it, but because it is true, and GKC generally said things better than any of us here have ever said them. I will use the best way of saying things, whoever said it and will not disallow it just because you have never discovered the greatness of the man and wrongly think it to be about the man, rather than about the issue of what major and minor morals are.

I am sorry you are misreading me. But it is a common malaise, and I have been guilty of it before, myself.

 

[rusmeister]

Frederica did come out and said she didn't word what she wrote originally very well, and that she admits it led to a misunderstanding of her original intent. I suppose that doesn't mean much to you guys either. So there's no real point in me bringing that up.

I caught that, and paid more attention to her self-correction than the original text. FWIW.

 

[GregConstantine]

No I disagree with you Rusmeister, but I don't really feel that you are open to hearing any other perspective or ideas, etc. So I'm not going to go into a dissertation here explaining why I disagree.

 

[jckstraw72]

Rus, thank you for your explanation of your viewpoint. it's always helpful for the progress of threads that you are willing to take the time to thoughtfully explain your positions.

 

[rusmeister]

No I disagree with you Rusmeister, but I don't really feel that you are open to hearing any other perspective or ideas, etc. So I'm not going to go into a dissertation here explaining why I disagree.

I've been open enough to read everything she wrote as well as what you've said here. Unless by "open" you mean "going to change your mind".

I used to think capital punishment something no Christian could admit as a legitimate right of the state. Steve Robinson got me to change my mind. It took quite a bit. I can imagine the possibility that I could be wrong. But as I find more and more things that confirm what I do see and understand, I become more certain.