Speaking in tongues

[~Beauty_from_Pain~]

I hope this is the right place to put this....
Yes, I did just bring that topic up! I was just wondering about it because I was talking about it with a friend the other day, and it brought up some stuff that I have never thought about before. I know that this is a controversal topic. I have believed that speaking in tongues still exist today but never did a lot of research on the topic and obviously don't know much about the origins of words. I have just always thought that speaking in tongues could refer to speaking another language that one does not know about, but also that it implies to a gift of the Holy Spirit that we can speak in tongues and it is not something that others understand but still needs to be interpreted. Is it true that this is not what scripture implies? If so then, here is my question: I have experienced this "speaking in tongues" in my own life, usually in my own quiet times with God. I started to experience this after I was a young teenager and the church I was going to laid hands on me and asked for me to "receive the Holy Spirit." Now that I am older, I do not really believe that one has to ask to receive the Holy Spirit in such a way, but that was just some background info. So because of the conversation I had with my friend, I am just wondering about this "speaking in tongues" which is not another real language. I have always felt like it should be something that is an expression between one person and God, and not something that is in church due to no one else understanding it. So is it possible that this is another way that the Holy Spirit expresses Himself or helps us speak to the Father when we are having our quiet times with God? All I know is that it happens when I am really struggling with things and I can't just discount it as nothing, but perhaps it is not what should be labeled as speaking in tongues if that only applies to a real language. Does this make sense?

 

[JerryL]

This topic was just hashed out a couple of weeks ago. I think you can find just about every take from both sides here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7362977/

 

[heymikey80]

It's a tough and interesting question. It's hard to shoehorn a theology into "speaking in tongues" in the history of Paul's ministry, as well as in Acts.

I'm a practical cessationist, for the record. I just don't see the normal argument that this is always human languages, I don't see that completely carries.

The assumption made about the Acts 3 event is that the miracle was that people could speak in other known languages. It may be though that the miracle there was among people hearing their own languages in the ecstatic speaking of those baptized in the Holy Spirit. I do hold the former view. I also know that the latter view is reasonable, though not the majority interpretation. Either view permits what I'm about to say further.

Ecstatic speaking was known in other religions in the ancient world, and it marked out real converts to a religion. So it's considered a valuable indication of conversion.

At Cornelius' house, the speaking in tongues would be ... out of place as a human language. Everyone there knew Greek, and were listening to Peter. The need for speaking in other human languages was not there. But the demonstration of the Spirit's work was needed. So the Spirit supplied it. Was it speaking in tongues without the proper purpose in place? It seems odd the Spirit of God would choose the wrong purpose ...! I'm actually attracted to the conclusion that this was ecstatic speaking, because the Spirit had to get across their conversion to Peter's ministry group, as indicated by the end of Acts 10 & 11. That's why Peter would be permitted to baptize Gentiles. But the connection with the Acts 3 event is a link in the chain to the Apostles' speaking in tongues. In that event, speaking in tongues becomes something of a more general description including ecstatic speech, and that ecstatic speech was included in Acts 3 -- even though some spoke in known languages. So when th Spirit wants it, a human language may well be the result. But when it's not needed? It seems that this gift is sometimes given when the Spirit must show us quickly, we who look on the outward appearance, that someone is converted.

Ecstatic speech is not always there, though. And it's not absolutely reliable as an indicator, either. People can fake ecstatic speech. Plus, people have left the church who have been in partnership with the Spirit, and presumably received gifts (cf Heb 6). And ecstatic speaking has been a part of human religious experience for millenia before. So it's not an absolute indication of God's Holy Spirit. It's actually a fair indication of a strong emotional or mental effect. That is valuable to know, yes. The source of that effect can be the Spirit, yes. Another source can counterfeit it as well.

Carrying this on to 1 Corinthians 12-14, I see this as an interesting confirmation that speaking in tongues is not used solely to communicate in another human language. It can be the opposite; and that can be detrimental when it's overused. Paul's calling attention to speaking in tongues as a gift that shouldn't get as much esteem as it's given. Here it's given to the church for its ministry. It's a confirmation of conversion. It's a visible sign to the rest of the church. And it's even a sign to outsiders. But it can also be a problem for the church. It can interfere with the church's reputation. Overused or overvalued, it can lead an unbeliever to think Christians are out of their minds (1 Cor 14:23). I think this verse implies that, overused, the unbeliever decides your faith is nothing but emotional ecstasy. So in a church with the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, tongues are one of many gifts. They aren't to be overwhelmingly engaged in, in the greater assemblies.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This topic was just hashed out a couple of weeks ago. I think you can find just about every take from both sides here.

[URL="http://www.christianforums.com/t7362977/"]http://www.christianforums.com/t7362977/[/URL]

Tongues........

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Corinthians 13:8 The Love not-then is failing.
Whether yet prophecies, they shall be being made useless/katarghqhsontai <2673> (5701), whether tongues/glwssai <1100> they shall be ceasing/resting/pausontai <3973> (5695), whether knowledge, it shall be being made-useless/katarghqhsetai <2673> (5701).

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Textus Rec.) 1 Corinthians 13:8 h agaph oudepote ekpiptei eite de profhteiai katarghqhsontai eite glwssai pausontai eite gnwsiV katarghqhsetai

Reve 17:15 And He is saying to me "the waters which thou saw where the Prostitute is sitting, peoples and throngs are and nations and tongues/glwssai <1100>.

glwssai <1100> Used 4 times in NT. Acts 2:3, 1 Corin 13:8, 1 Corin 14:22, Reve 17:15

1100. glossa of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):--tongue.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I also find it interesting that the greek word #2673 Paul uses in 1 Corin 13:8 is used only one time in the Gospels, and that in the parable of the "fig-tree".

That verse in 1 Corin is also the only verse where it is used twice. Interesting.

Luke 13:7 He said yet toward the vineyardist "three years from which I am coming seeking fruit in the fig-tree, this, and not I am finding.
Hew-down! then her, that any also the land is wasting/idleling"/kat-argei <2673> (5719)

Textus Rec.) Luke 13:7 eipen de proV ton ampelourgon idou tria eth ercomai zhtwn karpon en th sukh tauth kai ouc euriskw ekkoyon authn inati kai thn ghn katargei

#2673 used 27 times. 1 time in the Gospels.

2673. katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
2596. kata a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):--about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at,............................
691. argeo from 692; to be idle, i.e. (figuratively) to delay:--linger.
692. argos from 1 (as a negative particle) and 2041; inactive, i.e. unemployed; (by implication) lazy, useless:--barren, idle, slow

 

[ARBITER01]

Do a search, plenty of material on it.

 

[Cjwinnit]

It's a tough and interesting question. It's hard to shoehorn a theology into "speaking in tongues" in the history of Paul's ministry, as well as in Acts.

I'm a practical cessationist, for the record. I just don't see the normal argument that this is always human languages, I don't see that completely carries.

Possibly; directly from Scripture it's hard to support one side of the debate definitively to the detriment of the other. However, I do see in various people that they have the gift of speaking in many languages.

As two examples: Rowan Williams (archbishop of Canterbury) speaks or reads eight languages: English, Welsh, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Latin and Greek.

In addition to his native German, Benedict XVI fluently speaks Italian, French, English, Latin, and also has a knowledge of Portuguese. He can read Ancient Greek and biblical Hebrew.

 

[Dream3wb723]

Speeking other languages is one thing, but speeking in tonges as one of the spiritual gifts from GOD is a nother thing. I can speek 3 lang. English, Afrikaans and German.
Appart of that, God blessed me to Speek in tonges as well....

 

[zeke37]

if the langauge spoken is not understandable in a certain dialect, then it is jibberish, confusion and not of God...but from man's mind or demonic influence.

God is not the author of confusion

tongues in 1Cor14 mean the same thing they do in 1Cor12...diverse kinds of languages...diversities of languages.

they are human langauges...

 

[zeke37]

I hope this is the right place to put this....
Yes, I did just bring that topic up! I was just wondering about it because I was talking about it with a friend the other day, and it brought up some stuff that I have never thought about before. I know that this is a controversal topic. I have believed that speaking in tongues still exist today but never did a lot of research on the topic and obviously don't know much about the origins of words. I have just always thought that speaking in tongues could refer to speaking another language that one does not know about, but also that it implies to a gift of the Holy Spirit that we can speak in tongues and it is not something that others understand but still needs to be interpreted. Is it true that this is not what scripture implies? If so then, here is my question: I have experienced this "speaking in tongues" in my own life, usually in my own quiet times with God. I started to experience this after I was a young teenager and the church I was going to laid hands on me and asked for me to "receive the Holy Spirit." Now that I am older, I do not really believe that one has to ask to receive the Holy Spirit in such a way, but that was just some background info. So because of the conversation I had with my friend, I am just wondering about this "speaking in tongues" which is not another real language. I have always felt like it should be something that is an expression between one person and God, and not something that is in church due to no one else understanding it. So is it possible that this is another way that the Holy Spirit expresses Himself or helps us speak to the Father when we are having our quiet times with God? All I know is that it happens when I am really struggling with things and I can't just discount it as nothing, but perhaps it is not what should be labeled as speaking in tongues if that only applies to a real language. Does this make sense?

God does not author confusion...if you speak unintelligeable words, and call it worship, so be it...but God hears unintelligent garble as we would...unless you think intelligently, as you mumble unintellgently,...I guess.


many folks build or follow a religion that is based off of a misinterpretation of 1Cor14...


what happened in Acts2 is not what we see today as tongues......nor is 'tongues as a personal prayer language between just you and God, what Paul was teachng about in 1Cor14 to begin with...

infact, not even close....the entire chapter contradicts personal interpretation and confusion and barbarian speech etc...



not judging ones personal walk with Christ, but babyling incoherant ecstatic utterances and calling it a gift of God, is just plain wrong. Teaching others to do so is likewise wrong...That whole premise is disturbing...God can speak my English TONGUE just fine...and I know that HE can likewise understand that tongue...so my plees and worships go to Him in an intelligent manner, one which we both can understand fully and act upon.

what a great trick of the Devil...getting folks to bably to God, so He cannot understand their prayers, and calling it a gift from Him that He understands in a special langauge to show your closeness........what a con job.

 

[Seeking Him]

I speak in tongues also. I received the gift when hands were laid on me. It is a private prayer language of worship or intersession. Paul says they are languages of men and angels. He also says when we pray in tongues we are giving thanks,in Corinthians. It's a wonderful gift that you can cherish as you speak to God in mysteries in the Spirit.

There are hundreds of testimonies of people recognizing their native languages when they heard other people speaking in tongues. I know of someone who speaks fluent French who heard a friend praying in tongues in French and the prayer did not know one word of French.

There is a great classic book called "They Speak With Other Tongues" by John Sherrill that gives many examples of this, and gives you a short history of tongues as a movement. It's also very edifying to read!