Is Spanking Teenagers for Discipline Appropriate?

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Avniel

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Aveniel , hello. Yours was an interesting post. It seems that much of what you dislike about Mississippi I quite like ( but NOT the remnants of racism/violence etc , which are abhorrent ) .But the more liberal areas of the States , especially the cities , suffer from drugs, crime, gang culture which are not problems in my part of MS.

Perhaps it is our old style conservatism which is why many of us have continued paddling - if it ain't broke don't fix it.I know parents in the church who don't paddle , and that's their choice, but many of us continue to do so.

At my daughters school you can opt out of paddling if you don't like it,but very very few do, and girls are normally paddled by a female ( although we have a female principal who paddles both sexes) ,but in my day your butt was spanked by any teacher, often in the classroom or hallway . Today its much more controlled, regulated by the administration and limited to three or five swats!

I didn't really understand your comment

There are certain aspects of culture that don't allow teens to behave appropriately in certain circumstances

Perhaps you could explain what you are getting at , please.

I believe I am a teacher with my girls : but I'm old fashioned enough to feel that parents ( and teachers) need a little respect from even teenagers, and therefore can't be best friends or equals.

I hope this explains my views better, but blessings to you all. It's always interesting and thought provoking to read other views !!!! Missy :hug:

I did substitute in madison county which isn't in the city which was considered to be a more wealthy area of course excluding, there are major behavioral issues in the school district. 1st of all the teachers really don't care about the children and many times the principles are not qualified but supported by politics. There are in fact very few teachers that I respect as an adult being a child. Majority of the children that get labeled as bad really aren't, the paddle is often times used because the teachers are very disrespectful to children, the children are often times getting disciplined for nothing other then the teachers hard days, they don't get paid enough to investigate, the teachers smoke cigs on the school property, they lie on children, they even buy drugs from students, some of the teachers go as far as to instigate children......I have seen all of this in Madison county an area that is one of the best places to live in, in MS. Now I can imagine cities like Jackson are even worse of course but Madison county is not that far behind, the delta has children walking like prisoners.......the entire education system in MS is messed up.

I would never allow someone from a school district in MS to speak to my daughter even harshly. THat is how much I distrust the school districts in ms as someone that substituted and did fixed assets for a number of them. I have seen their books, I have been in the classrooms as both a contractor for the school districts and a substitute don't allow them to discipline your child physically.


In MS it seems there is a lack of maturity that is age appropriate. I think because a lot of the time the adults there don't allow the teens to be teens. I know 10 year olds that walk to school, take the train and go back home. As a new yorker I think that the average 16 year olds maturity level in MS is about 11-12. In regards to joking, interactions, socially......there's a lack of teenage years.


I don't think the old way is working not with the rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, DUI, teen drug use, teen arrests.....in the state it's not really doing you guys justice.

I disagree I think as a parent my child deserves respect and will be punished when I don't get respect as a father. However it goes both ways I can't disrespect a child and still expect respect. I think teachers don't deserve respect other then when it comes to learning about education....if a teacher disrespects my daughter she will have the right to stand up and disrespect that person back and if she ends up in trouble because of it that's part of life too. I find that peole from MS don't really get that aspect.

You can't treat teens like children because there is a child that is becoming more advanced because they are treated more(not exactly) like an adult.

That is one of the reasons I moved back to nyc, that and 100k plus in student loans for law school and 40k a year doesn't really make me happy. I didn't want my daughter to be 14 and still being a 8-9 year old child mentally.

Sorry I'm everywhere I got my daughter here.
 
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I did substitute in madison county which isn't in the city which was considered to be a more wealthy area of course excluding, there are major behavioral issues in the school district. 1st of all the teachers really don't care about the children and many times the principles are not qualified but supported by politics. There are in fact very few teachers that I respect as an adult being a child. Majority of the children that get labeled as bad really aren't, the paddle is often times used because the teachers are very disrespectful to children, the children are often times getting disciplined for nothing other then the teachers hard days, they don't get paid enough to investigate, the teachers smoke cigs on the school property, they lie on children, they even buy drugs from students, some of the teachers go as far as to instigate children......I have seen all of this in Madison county an area that is one of the best places to live in, in MS. Now I can imagine cities like Jackson are even worse of course but Madison county is not that far behind, the delta has children walking like prisoners.......the entire education system in MS is messed up.

I would never allow someone from a school district in MS to speak to my daughter even harshly. THat is how much I distrust the school districts in ms as someone that substituted and did fixed assets for a number of them. I have seen their books, I have been in the classrooms as both a contractor for the school districts and a substitute don't allow them to discipline your child physically.


In MS it seems there is a lack of maturity that is age appropriate. I think because a lot of the time the adults there don't allow the teens to be teens. I know 10 year olds that walk to school, take the train and go back home. As a new yorker I think that the average 16 year olds maturity level in MS is about 11-12. In regards to joking, interactions, socially......there's a lack of teenage years.


I don't think the old way is working not with the rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, DUI, teen drug use, teen arrests.....in the state it's not really doing you guys justice.

I disagree I think as a parent my child deserves respect and will be punished when I don't get respect as a father. However it goes both ways I can't disrespect a child and still expect respect. I think teachers don't deserve respect other then when it comes to learning about education....if a teacher disrespects my daughter she will have the right to stand up and disrespect that person back and if she ends up in trouble because of it that's part of life too. I find that peole from MS don't really get that aspect.

You can't treat teens like children because there is a child that is becoming more advanced because they are treated more(not exactly) like an adult.

That is one of the reasons I moved back to nyc, that and 100k plus in student loans for law school and 40k a year doesn't really make me happy. I didn't want my daughter to be 14 and still being a 8-9 year old child mentally.

Sorry I'm everywhere I got my daughter here.

Not to derail the thread, you just struck a few chords with me.

I remember when my daughter was about 2 or 3, and I was already doing some basic play-learning with her, and to that end frequented the local "parent resource center" at the public school. Everything was freely available to homeschooling parents. But in the process, I got to see how the teachers interacted with the children (this was in Florida, about 15 or 16 years ago). I was literally shocked at how disrespectful the teachers were to the students, shaming and mocking them. I pretty much vowed in my heart that I would not allow anyone to speak to my daughter that way.

Now, she's not a spoiled brat. I insisted that she respect me and obey me. As far as spanking, I will tell you, I only swatted her bottom twice (both were for traffic-related incidents, and I was more afraid than anything and it was a reaction) and one time I did have out outright spank her but it wasn't a real spanking. She was deliberately misbehaving in a minor way and calling me to see it, and the second time I told her if she did it again, I would spank her. She did it again so .... I had backed myself into a corner and spanked her.

But I was blessed to perhaps luck onto the method that worked with her. I would simply tell her, "if you walk on that log, you might fall off and get hurt" and she would think about it, and not walk on the log. Other times if I told her not to do something, she just never did it. Somehow I was blessed with a super-obedient kid. I didn't deserve one - I misbehaved plenty growing up!

LOL, defending my generally "no-spanking" history - if not policy.

The other thing that really got me about the school you described, was I taught at a private school in Texas, and I was shocked at how the teachers and students interacted. Most of the teachers disrespected the students, and would do things like friend them on facebook and "spy" on them. They mocked them. The expected most of them to fail. Then there were their favorites, who they acted as if they could do no wrong. It was a mess.

Some kids messed up my car when I was first hired. They WERE little hoodlums, some of them. But they learned pretty quickly that I didn't treat them like the others did. And they tested me after that - at least the older ones did. But they came to know that I would treat them with respect, believe them (when they told the truth), and respect their feelings. The girls would come to me and tell me their problems. I stayed friends with them for years after I quit teaching there. Ironically, the "star" kids were the ones I had to discipline, at least the younger and middle-school ones. (It was a pre-K through high school and I ended up working with kids from every age group.) They were already thinking the world owed them whatever they wanted and they could act as they wanted. Just a little discipline though (not physical of course) and they were won over as well. The other teachers did not appreciate me for this though, I will say that. It didn't set well that I wouldn't join the "group". But there was one other teacher who treated the kids in ways similar to me, though she only taught one middle-school class. It was nice to have someone I could see eye to eye with.

But seeing the ways things happen in some schools, just really bothers me tremendously.
 
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Hi Kylissa , I see what you are getting at , but I suspect that confiscating a phone might be rather like grounding, a punishment which just creates the space for meaningless argument over the next days-and for 'drawn out' punishment. Plus in this day and age there are safety issues unfortunately that cell phones help minimize. Swats send a clear message, and are over quickly, then we hug and its all behind us . I know the girls don't like the pain or the embarrassment of the paddle, but maybe that's the essence of 'effective consequences'. <snip>
I hope this explains my views better, but blessings to you all. It's always interesting and thought provoking to read other views !!!! Missy :hug:

Hi Missy! :)

I understand where you are coming from. Actually, my short comment was just intended as a general comment on the question of spanking teenagers, not as a comment on your particular situation. And it really DOES depend on the situation. I can't take away my daughter's cell phone because she works and has other things she does, and I want her to be able to contact me. Though ... I have considered restricting her from texting or turning it off on her phone. She really doesn't talk to people, or play games on it. She does send thousands of texts a month though, LOL.

My situation is also quite different from typical. She had been taken from me, kidnapped by a family member and hidden for several years. Long story. But I did not see her during her early teenage years. So putting our relationship back together and establishing new boundaries was something I had to handle very carefully.

She's always been a good kid. For me at least. She acted out during the time she was away from me. Now she's 18, and the worst thing she does is get distracted when with her friends and not text me by the time I'd like to hear back from her, but her schedule changes on a daily basis so we don't have firm time rules and she's essentially a legal adult. She did well in school, graduated, earns enough money to pay her own way, and has scholarships to pay for school as well as room and board, and bought her own car (very used lol) ... I give her as much freedom as I can because in a year or two at most she's going to be moving away, since she already has half her B.A.

So I can't begin to measure anyone else's situation by mine, and I wouldn't. I think kids are all different, and if their parents realize that and do what works with that kid, then great. :)

But I wasn't commenting/criticizing on your particular situation or anything. :)

God bless!!! +++
 
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Avniel

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Not to derail the thread, you just struck a few chords with me.

I remember when my daughter was about 2 or 3, and I was already doing some basic play-learning with her, and to that end frequented the local "parent resource center" at the public school. Everything was freely available to homeschooling parents. But in the process, I got to see how the teachers interacted with the children (this was in Florida, about 15 or 16 years ago). I was literally shocked at how disrespectful the teachers were to the students, shaming and mocking them. I pretty much vowed in my heart that I would not allow anyone to speak to my daughter that way.

Now, she's not a spoiled brat. I insisted that she respect me and obey me. As far as spanking, I will tell you, I only swatted her bottom twice (both were for traffic-related incidents, and I was more afraid than anything and it was a reaction) and one time I did have out outright spank her but it wasn't a real spanking. She was deliberately misbehaving in a minor way and calling me to see it, and the second time I told her if she did it again, I would spank her. She did it again so .... I had backed myself into a corner and spanked her.

But I was blessed to perhaps luck onto the method that worked with her. I would simply tell her, "if you walk on that log, you might fall off and get hurt" and she would think about it, and not walk on the log. Other times if I told her not to do something, she just never did it. Somehow I was blessed with a super-obedient kid. I didn't deserve one - I misbehaved plenty growing up!

LOL, defending my generally "no-spanking" history - if not policy.

The other thing that really got me about the school you described, was I taught at a private school in Texas, and I was shocked at how the teachers and students interacted. Most of the teachers disrespected the students, and would do things like friend them on facebook and "spy" on them. They mocked them. The expected most of them to fail. Then there were their favorites, who they acted as if they could do no wrong. It was a mess.

Some kids messed up my car when I was first hired. They WERE little hoodlums, some of them. But they learned pretty quickly that I didn't treat them like the others did. And they tested me after that - at least the older ones did. But they came to know that I would treat them with respect, believe them (when they told the truth), and respect their feelings. The girls would come to me and tell me their problems. I stayed friends with them for years after I quit teaching there. Ironically, the "star" kids were the ones I had to discipline, at least the younger and middle-school ones. (It was a pre-K through high school and I ended up working with kids from every age group.) They were already thinking the world owed them whatever they wanted and they could act as they wanted. Just a little discipline though (not physical of course) and they were won over as well. The other teachers did not appreciate me for this though, I will say that. It didn't set well that I wouldn't join the "group". But there was one other teacher who treated the kids in ways similar to me, though she only taught one middle-school class. It was nice to have someone I could see eye to eye with.

But seeing the ways things happen in some schools, just really bothers me tremendously.

It sad I have seen student talked to that made me want to disrespect a teacher. I don't think the teachers of today are capable for the most part of punishing children. There are very few people that I have encountered that are called to teach but there are a lot of people in the profession that just want a paycheck. The funny part about it is the children know that. As with you the thing I did notice when I was there the kids with the "behavioral" issues that went to sped classes they made my day easy. I respected them and they respected me.......people shouldn't say anything to a child particularly a teenager that would make an adult want to punch them in the face. I have seen it done and the young man walked away I as an adult would have beat the disrespect out of a professor that talked to me like that........

You are right discipline is needed but discipline is one method. There is teaching, talking, giving attention, taking away attention, leading by example.

My parents used to beat me so I have had my fair share of feeling disrespected by my parents and not feeling loved. My wife was spanked twice and she. My wife knows more then I do, she understands things better, she has a better grasp on things. She learned more from her parents and I learned a lot less. All I learned from my parents was that I when I grow up nobody is going to talk to me a certain, nobody is going to every hit me again. I boxed, I took kick boxing and I got good at what I did.......fight. After years of wins I got robbed at gun point and I told them to pull the trigger. I got so tired of fighting I didn't want to fight anymore the only thing that made me speak up and talk myself out of the situation was my wife.


My main issues with spanking is:

1) As a human being you are not always right. If you spank a teen and you are not right you run the risk of being wrong. You may forget but a teen will remember being hit for nothing.

2) It doesn't teach anything. After years of spankings I decided I could do whatever I wanted it was just a spanking.

3) It teaches violence. When you start spanking children typically they hit you back. You have actually taught that child to react in violence.

4) It teaches people that the only way to correct their behavior is with violence. I don't know how many people I know who were spanked as children and the only way to get their attention is to beat their butts as adults. There is no "excuse me may you please not do that again" isn't understood. You have to either take the disrespect or teach them to respect you like their parents.

5)Spanking children older than 5 or 6 is a bad idea. Research suggests that older kids are especially susceptible to the negative effects of spanking. They are more likely to become antisocial or distressed. They are also more likely to develop negative relationships with their parents.

6)poor emotional regulation

Regarding the school system it is pretty messed up. It's like either you have the 12-20k a sem for a great private school or you are going to have to make your presence known in the public school system. You knew the kids that had parents that would sue, cause trouble and even fight teachers. There was a very different approach with them. The best way is the private school system the public school system needs to be fixed.
 
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It sad I have seen student talked to that made me want to disrespect a teacher. I don't think the teachers of today are capable for the most part of punishing children. There are very few people that I have encountered that are called to teach but there are a lot of people in the profession that just want a paycheck. The funny part about it is the children know that. As with you the thing I did notice when I was there the kids with the "behavioral" issues that went to sped classes they made my day easy. I respected them and they respected me.......people shouldn't say anything to a child particularly a teenager that would make an adult want to punch them in the face. I have seen it done and the young man walked away I as an adult would have beat the disrespect out of a professor that talked to me like that........

You are right discipline is needed but discipline is one method. There is teaching, talking, giving attention, taking away attention, leading by example.

My parents used to beat me so I have had my fair share of feeling disrespected by my parents and not feeling loved. My wife was spanked twice and she. My wife knows more then I do, she understands things better, she has a better grasp on things. She learned more from her parents and I learned a lot less. All I learned from my parents was that I when I grow up nobody is going to talk to me a certain, nobody is going to every hit me again. I boxed, I took kick boxing and I got good at what I did.......fight. After years of wins I got robbed at gun point and I told them to pull the trigger. I got so tired of fighting I didn't want to fight anymore the only thing that made me speak up and talk myself out of the situation was my wife.


My main issues with spanking is:

1) As a human being you are not always right. If you spank a teen and you are not right you run the risk of being wrong. You may forget but a teen will remember being hit for nothing.

2) It doesn't teach anything. After years of spankings I decided I could do whatever I wanted it was just a spanking.

3) It teaches violence. When you start spanking children typically they hit you back. You have actually taught that child to react in violence.

4) It teaches people that the only way to correct their behavior is with violence. I don't know how many people I know who were spanked as children and the only way to get their attention is to beat their butts as adults. There is no "excuse me may you please not do that again" isn't understood. You have to either take the disrespect or teach them to respect you like their parents.

5)Spanking children older than 5 or 6 is a bad idea. Research suggests that older kids are especially susceptible to the negative effects of spanking. They are more likely to become antisocial or distressed. They are also more likely to develop negative relationships with their parents.

6)poor emotional regulation

Regarding the school system it is pretty messed up. It's like either you have the 12-20k a sem for a great private school or you are going to have to make your presence known in the public school system. You knew the kids that had parents that would sue, cause trouble and even fight teachers. There was a very different approach with them. The best way is the private school system the public school system needs to be fixed.

Yes, it's much better teaching in a private school, that I have found. I could make more if I got certified and went to the public school system, but I honestly don't know if I could handle it. I'd probably go with special ed if I did.

The only kids I couldn't handle well at my private school were the 7th graders. They were out of control. I stopped my class, and just looked at them, and told them that I ought not have to treat them like my preschoolers, and they should know better than to act that way. One boy - the "leader" actually was kind of chagrined at that, and kind of took over and calmed the others down, and it was bearable. A few of the kids from that group were great one-on-one (I did a good bit of tutoring too) but to have them grouped in a room - well, they were my least favorite class.

(I know that may sound disrespectful of the kids, but I did not say it in a mocking way, and they were really unruly and I was given no recourse except my words.)

From a psychological point of view, I pretty much championed all the points you make here. That is actually my main educational field. And in general, I still agree with it. I don't like to make blanket statements about "all kids" because I can be wrong. As I said about my own daughter, I think I was just very blessed that the "method" I decided on happened to be perfect for her, and she was simply always a good kid. I was blessed. I can't say it would work on every child. But it's a good one to try, imo. ;) The only problem with it was that she was maybe a little TOO concerned about natural consequences sometimes, but other than a brief period of that when she was 2 or 3, she has turned out fine, thank God.

It's very good that your wife complements your experience so well. I haven't heard from you in a while, I guess we are in different forums normally in CF. But I am always glad to hear stories of your family. Somehow it warms my heart. :) Your little girl is as adorable as ever. I think she is very blessed to have you and your wife as her parents, and it sounds like you are both very blessed to have each other. I'm glad you give these things so much thought and can recognize all the factors at work here.

Blessings to you all!!! +++
 
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Oh, and Avniel, you have a point about being wrong and spanking!

My Grandmother gave me a switching one time because I was upset that I wasn't able to scrub a dent out of her hardwood floors where the couch leg had set for years and darkened the wood. And my Mother spanked me with her shoe in front of my best friend when I was 14, and I was mortified.

The spanking didn't hurt when I was 14, but she spanked me because she had lost her shoes and I couldn't find the other one. It wasn't right. And yes, you remember those. It sounds like you know too. But it's a good point to raise.

As I said, my one real "spanking" (and it wasn't a "real" spanking because I couldn't bear to give any hard swat and pulled back as I spanked her, because she really was just testing me) - was given when my daughter was about 3-4 and was just pushing me I guess, to see if I would do anything. It was her one moment of real disobedience, and it was a very minor thing.

She's 18 now. I can't begin to imagine spanking her now, if she needed it.
 
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Hi Avniel,and Kylissa

Avniel said

1) As a human being you are not always right. If you spank a teen and you are not right you run the risk of being wrong. You may forget but a teen will remember being hit for nothing.

2) It doesn't teach anything. After years of spankings I decided I could do whatever I wanted it was just a spanking.

3) It teaches violence. When you start spanking children typically they hit you back. You have actually taught that child to react in violence.


and Kylissa

Oh, and Avniel, you have a point about being wrong and spanking!

My Grandmother gave me a switching one time because I was upset that I wasn't able to scrub a dent out of her hardwood floors where the couch leg had set for years and darkened the wood. And my Mother spanked me with her shoe in front of my best friend when I was 14, and I was mortified.

The spanking didn't hurt when I was 14, but she spanked me because she had lost her shoes and I couldn't find the other one. It wasn't right. And yes, you remember those. It sounds like you know too. But it's a good point to raise.



I'd really add two thoughts. 'Punishments' that involve say groundings at home or detention at school etc., are certainly not physical punishments, but they are psychological punishments. They may be more comfortable to give, because there is no obvious physical contact , but the intention is just as much to punish as paddling. They are longer , more drawn out, and cannot be taken back either. Even to be banned wrongly from watching, say, TV for a week is just as unacceptable as being switched for something you didn't do , and it lasts , and hurts psychologically for a lot longer. (Mind you it does teach a real lesson : human justice is never perfect).

Isn't this another example of where our society wants to sanitize its social behavior, just like we protect ourselves from considering the real dilemmas of many things?

For example I don't believe in the death penalty , but my of my friends who still do would say , 'so long as its humane and painless(!!!!).

Or again as a society these days we shut death and the grieving process out , we have specialist places (funeral homes) where we marginalise these things which are central to our being , but are 'uncomfortable' to our modern societal norms.

So I see paddling as being up front, simple , open or 'transparent' and truthful. You've done something seriously wrong. There is a consequence. It's not pleasant , but hopefully it will remind you not to do it again.

Other punishments intend to do the same , but to do it without physically touching the teen, , rather punishing them through their long term mental discomfort ( no phone, detention, no TV , whatever). You don't physically have to administer the punishment , but the intent and aim is the same . There is as much mental cruelty in families as physical cruelty, probably more these days.

As for 'teaching violence' , as I say all punishment teaches one form of violence or another. As a teen I often didn't feel I was rightly punished. If I was 'wrongly' ,to my mind, grounded, I snuck out my bedroom and down the shingles!!! Mind you there was more punishment ( probably a paddling- and far worse than I ever give!) when I got found out!

Why did I never hit back, and why don't my girls? I believe its because they know they are loved in the family and respect my leadership of it. They have the grace to submit. They know i try to be fair, even if sometimes I'm wrong : that's part of family life.

Now I concede there are modern approaches where there are no punishments given, where the whole learning process is negotiation, ad there are no 'consequences' for actions . What worries me about these approaches is as soon as the young person gets out on their own on the streets, they find out there are real consequences, from parking tickets to prison. A non consequential approach to learning would hardly prepare a teen for the real world outside the cocoon of the family unit would it ?

Peace and blessings to you all. Missy :hug:
 
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Avniel

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I don't know if I totally agree with that.

I think the reality is as adults our consequences rarely are violent unless we are dealing with emotionally stunted growth. I think physical punishment isn't a reality in the world we want most of our children to live in. You don't show up to work you get fired, you don't do your homework I'm going to give you more homework sounds more inline with reality vs you don't go to work someone hits you and you don't do your homework you get hit. I think it's a hinderance IMO because if when children break their boundaries they are spanked how will they respond to other's that break boundaries? They will more likely react in violence....areas and cultures that rely on the spanking method typical have higher poverty, less educational value and more violence. There is a direct tie between how kids respond to conflict and the way they are disciplined. When you spank a child you aren't just teaching them what you don't want them to do you are also teaching them how to respond when someone else does something they aren't supposed to do.

I think all punishment should bring some sort of discomfort however I just don't believe that children particularly teens should be spanked. There are way more affective ways to teach and educate children that use methods of discipline that do not involve negotiations. I have never spanked a child but I have never negotiated with one nor do I plan to.

Not being able to watch the tv and being physically punished are to different to even explain. On one hand punishing a child and being in the wrong is impossible to avoid we as parents will all make mistakes in the discipline department. Now a child is put on a month punishment with no tv, no cell phone and no friends can actually be beneficial to a child's education, writing ability, research ability but spanking a child and the parent is in the wrong does nothing but builds resentment there are no positives there. It teaches fear instead of respect for the rules.

But you continued to sneak out. So what did the paddle really do other then make you scared to get caught again.

I don't know about the modern no consequences but there are other methods of discipline that work 10 times better
 
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Hi Avniel,and Kylissa

Avniel said

1) As a human being you are not always right. If you spank a teen and you are not right you run the risk of being wrong. You may forget but a teen will remember being hit for nothing.

2) It doesn't teach anything. After years of spankings I decided I could do whatever I wanted it was just a spanking.

3) It teaches violence. When you start spanking children typically they hit you back. You have actually taught that child to react in violence.


and Kylissa

Oh, and Avniel, you have a point about being wrong and spanking!

My Grandmother gave me a switching one time because I was upset that I wasn't able to scrub a dent out of her hardwood floors where the couch leg had set for years and darkened the wood. And my Mother spanked me with her shoe in front of my best friend when I was 14, and I was mortified.

The spanking didn't hurt when I was 14, but she spanked me because she had lost her shoes and I couldn't find the other one. It wasn't right. And yes, you remember those. It sounds like you know too. But it's a good point to raise.



I'd really add two thoughts. 'Punishments' that involve say groundings at home or detention at school etc., are certainly not physical punishments, but they are psychological punishments. They may be more comfortable to give, because there is no obvious physical contact , but the intention is just as much to punish as paddling. They are longer , more drawn out, and cannot be taken back either. Even to be banned wrongly from watching, say, TV for a week is just as unacceptable as being switched for something you didn't do , and it lasts , and hurts psychologically for a lot longer. (Mind you it does teach a real lesson : human justice is never perfect).

Isn't this another example of where our society wants to sanitize its social behavior, just like we protect ourselves from considering the real dilemmas of many things?

For example I don't believe in the death penalty , but my of my friends who still do would say , 'so long as its humane and painless(!!!!).

Or again as a society these days we shut death and the grieving process out , we have specialist places (funeral homes) where we marginalise these things which are central to our being , but are 'uncomfortable' to our modern societal norms.

So I see paddling as being up front, simple , open or 'transparent' and truthful. You've done something seriously wrong. There is a consequence. It's not pleasant , but hopefully it will remind you not to do it again.

Other punishments intend to do the same , but to do it without physically touching the teen, , rather punishing them through their long term mental discomfort ( no phone, detention, no TV , whatever). You don't physically have to administer the punishment , but the intent and aim is the same . There is as much mental cruelty in families as physical cruelty, probably more these days.

As for 'teaching violence' , as I say all punishment teaches one form of violence or another. As a teen I often didn't feel I was rightly punished. If I was 'wrongly' ,to my mind, grounded, I snuck out my bedroom and down the shingles!!! Mind you there was more punishment ( probably a paddling- and far worse than I ever give!) when I got found out!

Why did I never hit back, and why don't my girls? I believe its because they know they are loved in the family and respect my leadership of it. They have the grace to submit. They know i try to be fair, even if sometimes I'm wrong : that's part of family life.

Now I concede there are modern approaches where there are no punishments given, where the whole learning process is negotiation, ad there are no 'consequences' for actions . What worries me about these approaches is as soon as the young person gets out on their own on the streets, they find out there are real consequences, from parking tickets to prison. A non consequential approach to learning would hardly prepare a teen for the real world outside the cocoon of the family unit would it ?

Peace and blessings to you all. Missy :hug:

Incidentally, after spanking me in front of my friend for not being able to find her lost shoe, my mom proceeded to ground me for THREE MONTHS because I let her clothes wrinkle in the dryer.

As a parent now, I don't think that's fair. Whether a parent should expect their 14 year old to do their laundry for them with no mistakes - I will leave to each parent.

My mother, though I loved her and may The Lord have mercy on her, was not the best model for me to learn discipline from.

Btw, I should also say Missy, that while I'm replying to your post, we are all having our opinions here. I'm not arguing with you in an "I'm right - you're wrong" sense. I am thankful that we have the freedoms of raising our children as loving parents in the way we think best for them and not having a one-size-fits-all dictated. So that NOT what I'm trying to do to you. :)

I do want to say that I completely disagree with a "no consequence" approach. Life has consequences. It was that very fact that drove the development of my ideas for discipline. Much of it involved natural consequences. For me, it was enough 99.9% of the time to simply tell her what would logically happen if she did a certain thing. She considered, she decided the possible outcome wasn't worth it, and she didn't do the stupid thing she was considering.

Like I said, I think I was blessed. I just so very, very rarely ever had to discipline her after the fact. She was just not like any other kid I've known. (And no, I'm not stupid to not realize what she did, nor to think my kid is perfect because she's not ) - but as a little one she didn't misbehave. And now as a young adult, I'm just trying to make her see consequences, and it's working. So far. Thank God.

My biggest risk was of making her fearful, but she is not that either. As I said, I think my method and her personality just clicked perfectly, and God blessed me with a very obedient child.

I love who she has become, but when I think of it, I miss her as a little girl too.
 
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Hi Kylissa'

You say


Btw, I should also say Missy, that while I'm replying to your post, we are all having our opinions here. I'm not arguing with you in an "I'm right - you're wrong" sense. I am thankful that we have the freedoms of raising our children as loving parents in the way we think best for them and not having a one-size-fits-all dictated.

Couldn't agree more. that's why I think it's a good idea in schools like mine that parents have the choice whether to let their children be paddled or not. Choice is always a good thing, rather than imposing one's views on everyone else. :)

Hi Avniel,

We are probably never going to agree on this one : indeed I suspect your distaste for physical punishment ( which is still widespread in MS schools , especially outside the cities) may have played a part in your moving away. however I did find this paragraph extremely interesting

Not being able to watch the tv and being physically punished are too different to even explain. On one hand punishing a child and being in the wrong is impossible to avoid we as parents will all make mistakes in the discipline department. Now a child is put on a month punishment with no tv, no cell phone and no friends can actually be beneficial to a child's education, writing ability, research ability but spanking a child and the parent is in the wrong does nothing but builds resentment there are no positives there. It teaches fear instead of respect for the rules.

I don't think , with respect that the assumptions here are necessarily correct. It all depends on what actually happens. Three swats for example are infinitely kinder to child than one month's grounding as you describe it.All that can be said with certainty is that both punishments cause suffering , but the kinds of suffering they cause are different. In the wrong hands either can be too feeble or severe, and therefore ineffective or cruel.

It seems to me that what is guiding modern sensibilities is not, if you consider your own example above , a distaste for suffering but a distaste for the appearance of suffering. Paddling looks and sounds as if it hurts, whereas other punishments, groundings at home, detentions, ISS and OSS at school - which may in their own way actually cause more damage and suffering - don't. That makes them acceptable .

Its not reason that drives this concept , nor even social ethics the the squeamish sentimentality of modern supermarket packed civilization that demands that , for example , offcuts of meat be processed into burgers, and even prime cuts of meat and fish packaged in cellophane, to avoid the imagery of butchery, fish gutting and reality. Or, as I said before the sanitization of death the chapel of rest , and the crematoria, the attempts by some to turn the clock of aging backwards with botox, face lifts and the rest. We believe we are removed from a primal relationship with the earth, and we euphemise away as much pain and suffering as we can . We dislocate ourselves from the physical world in which we live, until a disaster shakes our belief in our own infallibility

With psychological punishment we need to remember what we are doing. We are causing suffering , whilst it may not look like it .After all it is the suffering that deters the teen from committing that error again. The 'pain' of non corporal punishment is frustration, embarrassment, boredom, inconvenience etc over a protracted period. Corporal punishment is short , sharp and done with, so no one moment of their grounding will match the sharp momentary intensity of the paddling , but it is not quickly over and done with ...so which is 'kinder' ...difficult to assess, but many teens in my school choose paddling over ISS.

I don't' believe either is right or wrong, its just that I don't think paddling is cruel whereas groundings and ISS are not. . I have no problem in giving my teenage daughters a paddling when they very occasionally deserve it , and at school I have no problem disciplining those in high school who chose the paddle instead of ISS ( and that's a large majority even in the senior years).

I don't think its a BETTER way, but I don't think its any more cruel than non corporal punishments. But I guess its a personal decision.I don't believe the bible teaches us one way or the other is best !

Bless you all missy :hug:
 
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As an adult who was spanked as a teen and had a father who believed I would never be too old for it, there is no way I would do it to my sons. It was creepy, humiliating, and wrecked my self esteem and ability to feel that I had the right to demand respect in regard to my own body. It spilled over into other relationships.

And, it didn't change my character, as discipline is intended to do. It only made me fearful (the unhealthy kind of fear) and withdrawn from my father. My respect for him was minimal. I always dreaded seeing him, even when I had done nothing wrong.
 
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It sad I have seen student talked to that made me want to disrespect a teacher. I don't think the teachers of today are capable for the most part of punishing children. There are very few people that I have encountered that are called to teach but there are a lot of people in the profession that just want a paycheck. The funny part about it is the children know that. As with you the thing I did notice when I was there the kids with the "behavioral" issues that went to sped classes they made my day easy. I respected them and they respected me.......people shouldn't say anything to a child particularly a teenager that would make an adult want to punch them in the face. I have seen it done and the young man walked away I as an adult would have beat the disrespect out of a professor that talked to me like that........

You are right discipline is needed but discipline is one method. There is teaching, talking, giving attention, taking away attention, leading by example.

My parents used to beat me so I have had my fair share of feeling disrespected by my parents and not feeling loved. My wife was spanked twice and she. My wife knows more then I do, she understands things better, she has a better grasp on things. She learned more from her parents and I learned a lot less. All I learned from my parents was that I when I grow up nobody is going to talk to me a certain, nobody is going to every hit me again. I boxed, I took kick boxing and I got good at what I did.......fight. After years of wins I got robbed at gun point and I told them to pull the trigger. I got so tired of fighting I didn't want to fight anymore the only thing that made me speak up and talk myself out of the situation was my wife.


My main issues with spanking is:

1) As a human being you are not always right. If you spank a teen and you are not right you run the risk of being wrong. You may forget but a teen will remember being hit for nothing.

2) It doesn't teach anything. After years of spankings I decided I could do whatever I wanted it was just a spanking.

3) It teaches violence. When you start spanking children typically they hit you back. You have actually taught that child to react in violence.

4) It teaches people that the only way to correct their behavior is with violence. I don't know how many people I know who were spanked as children and the only way to get their attention is to beat their butts as adults. There is no "excuse me may you please not do that again" isn't understood. You have to either take the disrespect or teach them to respect you like their parents.

5)Spanking children older than 5 or 6 is a bad idea. Research suggests that older kids are especially susceptible to the negative effects of spanking. They are more likely to become antisocial or distressed. They are also more likely to develop negative relationships with their parents.

6)poor emotional regulation

Regarding the school system it is pretty messed up. It's like either you have the 12-20k a sem for a great private school or you are going to have to make your presence known in the public school system. You knew the kids that had parents that would sue, cause trouble and even fight teachers. There was a very different approach with them. The best way is the private school system the public school system needs to be fixed.

Bolding mine.

Nope, that is very rare. Spanking was not unusual when I was a child and one almost never heard of a child fighting back.

I very much doubt I would have. Now if my father beat either of my younger siblings in the manner described by some here after I was 16 or so all heck would probably have broken loose. Fortunately that was never even close to on the table.
 
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Bolding mine.

Nope, that is very rare. Spanking was not unusual when I was a child and one almost never heard of a child fighting back.

I very much doubt I would have. Now if my father beat either of my younger siblings in the manner described by some here after I was 16 or so all heck would probably have broken loose. Fortunately that was never even close to on the table.
I think science has proven when toddlers hit it is typically because they learn that some where. Children learn to hit and will hit their parents particularly when they are in the stage of mimicing. You know the science covers both nurture and nature.
 
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This thread, it is impossible, for me, to believe, some of the posts, are true. It's demoralising, and sick, to spank teenagers.
Exactly.

I will not be the disciplinarian in my household though, so if my wife wants to spank our younger children, that is going to be entirely up to her, I will not be apart of it. I was not abused as a child, but I have a very short and strong temper that I inherited from my dad. The times that he did spank me, which I'm sure I did something for, I simply remember him getting mad and spanking me. Due to my own experience, I have a hard time understanding how you can spank child when not angry at them. I simply don't trust myself to not cross over the line between discipline and abuse.

My professional opinion: It's lazy parenting.
 
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I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer for this. When my autistic daughter (mental age=18mos.) was readying to bite someone (then 13yo), a light slap gave her pause. She still bit teachers who weren't so bold --and I would have commissioned motherly responses*-- but all I had to do later was raise my hand and she would back down. None of this ever registered as abuse (no injuries, etc.). I have children with other mental illnesses where spanking didn't have its desired effect, even when age-appropriate.

My autistic son (m.a. 6-10yo, now 27), never connected consequences to an act, even in his own making, so corporal punishment was completely lost on him.

*One school bus driver even pinched her back (in front of us). It was clear to us that she was using constraint.
 
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Bolding mine.

Nope, that is very rare. Spanking was not unusual when I was a child and one almost never heard of a child fighting back.

I very much doubt I would have. Now if my father beat either of my younger siblings in the manner described by some here after I was 16 or so all heck would probably have broken loose. Fortunately that was never even close to on the table.

The cultural normalcy and ubiquitous of corporal punishment on children in the 1950s and 1960s when you were a child would have a significant impact on how it was received then in comparison to now. 50+ years ago it might have been very rare for a child to fight back against an adult trying to hit them, but today in areas where it's no longer a conventional disciplinary measure children are accustomed to receiving and witnessing, the response would likely be different. One of the numerous reasons my stepmom, who is a pediatrician, advises against spanking is that it is a natural reaction to hit back in that moment, or to mimic the action and strike other children. The age of the child and their experiences with spanking, as well as the culture they're living in would be significantly influential factors. Toddlers and teens are the most likely to strike back, whereas school age children who thought it was normal would be less likely to.

Compare and contrast two similar actions from an episode of Mad Men, which was set in the early 1960s, and the entire premise of the Australian books and series based on it titled The Slap (which also has an American adaptation from this year) which is set in posh suburbs of urban cities in modern-day. Both involve young boys about the same age being slapped across the face with similar force by unrelated men for their behavior at parties held in the homes of family friends who are not relatives to the boys. In the Mad Men episode the boy is slapped for running through the house while playfully chasing a little girl and accidentally knocking over a vase. The boy's father witnesses the slap and comes and kneels in front of the boy and instructs him to apologize to the man who struck him. When the boy doesn't comply, the father asks in a low, threatening tone if he "wants some more." The man who slapped the boy just tousles his hair, and cheerfully says "he heard me." End scene. In The Slap slaps a boy who is having a meltdown in the backyard of the house where the party for his is being held, and swinging a bat in frustration with other children within striking reach. The parents come rushing into the yard shrieking and scoop up the boy, and then scream at Harry, the slapper. The impetus for that whole series is the slap, how the various party goers who witnessed it perceived it, and the aftermath which involves Harry being arrested. All the younger party goers vehemently condemned the action, while the older Greek relatives struggled to understand why such an enormous issue was made of it. Of course both series are fictional, but they are rooted in realities to their era. If a child was spanked, slapped, or otherwise corporally punished in my neighborhood, an avalanche of fury would fall upon the adult, whereas my great-nana said that in her day they had the "it takes a village" attitude about discipline.

Anyway. This thread isn't about spanking children; it's about spanking teenagers, and there is a tremendous difference between the two psychologically, physically, socially, and legally. I've known teens who are sweet and well-mannered who've punched, slapped, scratched, and kicked parents they love and others who are attempting to spank them. It's a primal and involuntary reflexive response, not a considered and deliberated one. Even if the spanking is conducted in the same way it would be given to a child and is not leaving bruises and welts, or involving an out-of-control parent screaming profanities, it's not always perceived as a spanking because the context has completely changed between 7 and 17. It's far more of a violation against their bodies, and it can be very demoralizing, traumatizing, and have an intense impact that reverberates for weeks to come. When a loving parent does it, and the teen has fought back, it generates a whole other level of complex emotions afterwards because they immerse themselves in self-loathing and guilt when in actuality their action wasn't wrong. I would fight like a wild animal if someone tried to spank me. I don't know many teens who are or ever were spanked, but I know a few and they had fight or flight reactions.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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This thread, it is impossible, for me, to believe, some of the posts, are true. It's demoralising, and sick, to spank teenagers.

I can understand why some of the posts are unfathomable, and I agree that spanking is demoralizing and inappropriate. I believe all of today's posts are sincere and well-intentioned and am not making any accusations against anyone, but this is a controversial topic that can draw in people with ulterior motives. In middle school I would sometimes pop onto Yahoo Answers and lark around in the Adolescent section, and one of the reasons I left was that I was so creeped out by the spanking fetish trolls. They were posting there daily. I had no idea that it was something fetishized until then, and I fell for the traps a few times when I was new and naive. My heart was worried for kids who were entirely fictitious. Posts were made on how to distinguish between sincere questions and troll ones, and warning of the topic because it was so prevalent. The trolls were like vermin the teens had to keep chasing out. I also learned about forums that present themselves as being wholesome and for Christian families, but are actually elaborate facades for roleplaying fetishists. The problem is that there are many innocent teens who think that it is real, and are exploited by wolves dressed like lambs.

Warning - there is a lot of profanity and vileness in the link, but I think overall it's relevant to this topic because the fetishization of spanking teens contributes to the inappropriateness of it. Sincere teens feel more isolated because they cannot discuss it in person with friends, and they can't seek help online either without fear of being accused of trolling or their parent being called a pervert.
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Christian_Spanking_Blogs


ETA - Again, I do not doubt the intentions of the majority of people in this thread, and especially not those who are currently active, and am not making any insinuations or complaints. I just think this is a complex and sensitive topic for many reasons, and that there's a valid reason some may have for being skeptical about past posts here.
 
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keith99

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The cultural normalcy and ubiquitous of corporal punishment on children in the 1950s and 1960s when you were a child would have a significant impact on how it was received then in comparison to now. 50+ years ago it might have been very rare for a child to fight back against an adult trying to hit them, but today in areas where it's no longer a conventional disciplinary measure children are accustomed to receiving and witnessing, the response would likely be different. One of the numerous reasons my stepmom, who is a pediatrician, advises against spanking is that it is a natural reaction to hit back in that moment, or to mimic the action and strike other children. The age of the child and their experiences with spanking, as well as the culture they're living in would be significantly influential factors. Toddlers and teens are the most likely to strike back, whereas school age children who thought it was normal would be less likely to.

Compare and contrast two similar actions from an episode of Mad Men, which was set in the early 1960s, and the entire premise of the Australian books and series based on it titled The Slap (which also has an American adaptation from this year) which is set in posh suburbs of urban cities in modern-day. Both involve young boys about the same age being slapped across the face with similar force by unrelated men for their behavior at parties held in the homes of family friends who are not relatives to the boys. In the Mad Men episode the boy is slapped for running through the house while playfully chasing a little girl and accidentally knocking over a vase. The boy's father witnesses the slap and comes and kneels in front of the boy and instructs him to apologize to the man who struck him. When the boy doesn't comply, the father asks in a low, threatening tone if he "wants some more." The man who slapped the boy just tousles his hair, and cheerfully says "he heard me." End scene. In The Slap slaps a boy who is having a meltdown in the backyard of the house where the party for his is being held, and swinging a bat in frustration with other children within striking reach. The parents come rushing into the yard shrieking and scoop up the boy, and then scream at Harry, the slapper. The impetus for that whole series is the slap, how the various party goers who witnessed it perceived it, and the aftermath which involves Harry being arrested. All the younger party goers vehemently condemned the action, while the older Greek relatives struggled to understand why such an enormous issue was made of it. Of course both series are fictional, but they are rooted in realities to their era. If a child was spanked, slapped, or otherwise corporally punished in my neighborhood, an avalanche of fury would fall upon the adult, whereas my great-nana said that in her day they had the "it takes a village" attitude about discipline.

Anyway. This thread isn't about spanking children; it's about spanking teenagers, and there is a tremendous difference between the two psychologically, physically, socially, and legally. I've known teens who are sweet and well-mannered who've punched, slapped, scratched, and kicked parents they love and others who are attempting to spank them. It's a primal and involuntary reflexive response, not a considered and deliberated one. Even if the spanking is conducted in the same way it would be given to a child and is not leaving bruises and welts, or involving an out-of-control parent screaming profanities, it's not always perceived as a spanking because the context has completely changed between 7 and 17. It's far more of a violation against their bodies, and it can be very demoralizing, traumatizing, and have an intense impact that reverberates for weeks to come. When a loving parent does it, and the teen has fought back, it generates a whole other level of complex emotions afterwards because they immerse themselves in self-loathing and guilt when in actuality their action wasn't wrong. I would fight like a wild animal if someone tried to spank me. I don't know many teens who are or ever were spanked, but I know a few and they had fight or flight reactions.

Your post has put even more in focus something I've been thinking about for some time. The problem with spanking is not so much about pain as violation of personal dignity.

In my youth there was no 'it takes a village' mentality. Long gone. But some outside observers might have disagreed. There was a short list of those could take action if needed and even those never if the actual parents were nearby.

Also spanking teens was clearly on the way out, at least in my corner of the middle class. A study that just drew the line between 12 and 13 might not have seen it or understated it. Somewhere between 10 and 14 it seemed to stop. I think. It was not common in my family. As in so uncommon I only remember it once. Well twice if you count my father spanking a friend, actually 2 of them and that would have been in the 13-14 range. But they were 2 brothers who got in a fight where they might have killed each other (no weapons, but also no mercy. Feet and knees can kill).

In todays world in the U.S. spanking creates a ton of secondary issues. Any teen so punished is being dealt with in an abnormal manner. Just the abnormal part is enough that they quite rightly feel violated. And what could be the worst situation occurs when the parents are in fact kind and loving. In that instance a teen may well conclude that they, the teen, are the problem and that they must be especially bad to deserve such treatment. That can go bad in so many ways.

EDIT: I knew I forgot something. Threating a 17 year old like a 7 year old is almost always destructive. At the very least it stifles their emotional growth.
 
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