Soul: Why do Christians ignore the evidence?

[2Timothy2:15]

Considering what Christian reliable sources of info say about the origin of the concept of an immortal soul, why do Christians insists on the contrary?

The New Bible Dictionary: “The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul” (1996, p. 1010, “Resurrection”).



The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains: “We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament” (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, “Death”).



“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5

)



(Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, p. 237-238, emphasis added).“Nephesh: “the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath ... The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the 'body' and 'soul' which are really Greek and Latin in origin"

If you are trying to make a case that the Greek is skewed then why do you pick a scripture that was not originally even written in Greek?

You picked

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

That was in Hebrew not Greek.

The word for know is - yada`

The KJV translates Strongs H3045 in the following manner: know (645x), known (105x), knowledge (19x), perceive (18x), shew (17x), tell (8x), wist (7x), understand (7x), certainly (7x), acknowledge (6x), acquaintance (6x), consider (6x), declare (6x), teach (5x), miscellaneous (85x).

which also means to perceive....

So how do we put that together....we read it in context and it makes perfect sense.

Ecc 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

What is it that they no longer "know"? It is not saying they are gone and is Annihilationism...don't know where are what you have been studying but brother, where is your hope?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[tucker58]

I am no longer a JWs and have absolutely no interest in promoting their theology.
I attend the local Catholic Church and am planning to get baptized soon at that church.
I go for communion there and participate in the services and have been blessed for it.

Please point out where I said that I don't believe that all Christians go to heaven.

Considering what Christian reliable sources of info say about the origin of the concept of an immortal soul, why do Christians insists on the contrary?

The New Bible Dictionary: “The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul” (1996, p. 1010, “Resurrection”).

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains: “We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament” (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, “Death”).

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

(Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, p. 237-238, emphasis added).“Nephesh: “the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath ... The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the 'body' and 'soul' which are really Greek and Latin in origin"

Will sir, the title of this topic is, "Why Do Christians Ignor the Evidence". And your OP seems to indicate that the only reason that Christians believe in the immortality of the soul is because of the Greek influence on the Christian religion. Radrook, it seems to me that your question doesn't matter to Christians and that it only matters to those that are not Christian. Christians believe in the immotality of "their" souls because of the salvation of their Lord and Savior Christ Jesus not because of Greek philosophy. And Radrook, no matter how you look at it the reason that the Greeks took to the Christian faith as well as they did was because it agreed with their original beliefs with the difference being one God, one savior, and Lord Jesus was the final blood sacrifice that gave them as followers forgiveness before God.

Lord Jesus preached a cleansed soul and immortaity through Him for His followers, which was one of the reasons He came into deep conflict with the Jewish religious leaders of His day. What Lord Jesus preached was way closer to Greek philosophy than it was Jewish religious beliefs at least relative to His followers becoming immortal. Matter of fact what Lord Jesus preached was so radically different from Jewish beliefs that He was considered a demon in physical form.

So Radrook, what are you attempting to say to Christians with this topic? Because, Christians come under a whole different set of rules than everybody else does. Why is your topic aimed at Christians instead of non Christians who believe in the soul being immortal? The Greeks believed in an immortal soul but that belief isn't real according to Jewish beliefs and it doesn't become real until one becomes a follower of Christ Jesus.

 

[Radrook]

Will sir, the title of this topic is, "Why Do Christians Ignor the Evidence". And your OP seems to indicate that the only reason that Christians believe in the immortality of the soul is because of the Greek influence on the Christian religion. Radrook, it seems to me that your question doesn't matter to Christians and that it only matters to those that are not Christian. Christians believe in the immotality of "their" souls because of the salvation of their Lord and Savior Christ Jesus not because of Greek philosophy. And Radrook, no matter how you look at it the reason that the Greeks took to the Christian faith as well as they did was because it agreed with their original beliefs with the difference being one God, one savior, and Lord Jesus was the final blood sacrifice that gave them as followers forgiveness before God.

Lord Jesus preached a cleansed soul and immortality through Him for His followers, which was one of the reasons He came into deep conflict with the Jewish religious leaders of His day. What Lord Jesus preached was way closer to Greek philosophy than it was Jewish religious beliefs at least relative to His followers becoming immortal. Matter of fact what Lord Jesus preached was so radically different from Jewish beliefs that He was considered a demon in physical form.

So Radrook, what are you attempting to say to Christians with this topic? Because, Christians come under a whole different set of rules than everybody else does. Why is your topic aimed at Christians instead of non Christians who believe in the soul being immortal? The Greeks believed in an immortal soul but that belief isn't real according to Jewish beliefs and it doesn't become real until one becomes a follower of Christ Jesus.

I did not intent to say that Christians believe in the inherent immortality of the human soul because it is Greek Philosophy. Only meant to say that they do so despite the evidence that it is Greek philosophy. I am aware that vast majority believe it because they believe it is taught by Jesus and is legitimately biblically derived.

The reason why I aim my question at Christians is because the sources which state that the doctrine isn't of biblical origin are Christian sources. Now, since Christians are expected to want to worship in accordance with accurate knowledge and to be lovers of truth, I just wonder why the vast majority of Christian clergy don't pay any mind whatsoever to the compelling evidence presented by their own scholars that this doctrine isn't of biblical origin. BTW

I am not denying the promises Jesus made of immortality to those who are his followers.
It is the inherent immortality of the soul itself and its nature that is the issue.

 

[Der Alte]

My previous post.

The whole man dies, when in death the spirit (Psa_146:4; Ecc_12:7), or soul (Gen_35:18; 2Sa_1:9; 1Ki_17:21; Jon_4:3), goes out of a man. Not only his body, but his soul also returns to a state of death and belongs to the nether-world; therefore the Old Testament can speak of a death of one's soul (Gen_37:21 (Hebrew); Num_23:10 m; Deu_22:21; Jdg_16:30; Job_36:14; Psa_78:50), and of defilement by coming in contact with a dead body (Lev_19:28; Lev_21:11; Lev_22:4; Num_5:2; Num_6:6; Num_9:6; Num_19:10; Deu_14:1; Hag_2:13). This death of man is not annihilation, however, but a deprivation of all that makes for life on earth. The Sheol (she'ōl) is in contrast with the land of the living in every respect (Job_28:13; Pro_15:24; Eze_26:20; Eze_32:23); it is an abode of darkness and the shadow of death (Job_10:21, Job_10:22; Psa_88:12; Psa_143:3), a place of destruction, yea destruction itself (Job_26:6; Job_28:22; Job_31:12; Psa_88:11; Pro_27:20), without any order (Job_10:22), a land of rest, of silence, of oblivion (Job_3:13, Job_3:17, Job_3:18; Psa_94:17; Psa_115:17), where God and man are no longer to be seen (Isa_38:11), God no longer praised or thanked (Psa_6:5; Psa_115:17), His perfections no more acknowledged (Psa_88:10-13; Isa_38:18, Isa_38:19), His wonders not contemplated (Psa_88:12), where the dead are unconscious, do no more work, take no account of anything, possess no knowledge nor wisdom, neither have any more a portion in anything that is done under the sun (Ecc_9:5, Ecc_9:6, Ecc_9:10). The dead (“the Shades” the Revised Version, margin; compare article DECEASED) are asleep (Job_26:5; Pro_2:18; Pro_9:18; Pro_21:6; Psa_88:11; Isa_14:9), weakened (Isa_14:10) and without strength (Psa_88:4).​

I did not intent to say that Christians believe in the inherent immortality of the human soul because it is Greek Philosophy. Only meant to say that they do so despite the evidence that it is Greek philosophy.

I am aware that vast majority believe it because they believe it is taught by Jesus and is legitimately biblically derived.
The reason why I aim my question at Christians is because the sources which state that the doctrine isn't of biblical origin are Christian sources.

Now, since Christians are expected to want to worship in accordance with accurate knowledge and to be lovers of truth, I just wonder why the vast majority of Christian clergy don't pay any mind whatsoever to the compelling evidence presented by their own scholars that this doctrine isn't of biblical origin.

BTW
I am not denying the promises Jesus made of immortality to those who are his followers.
It is the inherent immortality of the soul itself and its nature that is the issue.

Why have you not responded to my previous post addressing one of those "Christian sources" you are relying on as proof that the Jews did not believe in immortality of the soul.

 

[tucker58]

I did not intent to say that Christians believe in the inherent immortality of the human soul because it is Greek Philosophy. Only meant to say that they do so despite the evidence that it is Greek philosophy. I am aware that vast majority believe it because they believe it is taught by Jesus and is legitimately biblically derived.

The reason why I aim my question at Christians is because the sources which state that the doctrine isn't of biblical origin are Christian sources. Now, since Christians are expected to want to worship in accordance with accurate knowledge and to be lovers of truth, I just wonder why the vast majority of Christian clergy don't pay any mind whatsoever to the compelling evidence presented by their own scholars that this doctrine isn't of biblical origin. BTW

I am not denying the promises Jesus made of immortality to those who are his followers.
It is the inherent immortality of the soul itself and its nature that is the issue.

Well sir, Greek philosophy does have an affect on things if one studies this stuff a bit . So I guess the question would be what part of that affect is biblical and what part is not? First of all, "Hell" is not biblical until the last judgement after the one thousand year reign of Christ. That part of things is pure Greek influence. So what happens to a non Christian or a bad Christian when they die is anybodies guess with the understanding that biblical is they die and ceace to exist, at least until the first judgement. Unless of course one is a Roman Catholic who believes in Purgatory, which is not biblical either. So what is biblical? John 14:2-3 is biblical. And John 14:2-3 is probably, when combined with Geek philosophy, the foundation of the belief in going to Christian Heaven when one as a Christian dies. And most see this Christian Heaven as the same kind of Heaven that the Greeks considered it to be. So from there the question becomes, what part of us goes to this place that Lord Jesus has prepared for us? Soul: n. 1. The animating and vital priciple in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion. So if we accept the dictionary definition of "soul", then the soul would have to go with us or we wouldn't exist as any kind of conscous entity.

The human body (actually the bodies of all living things do) and mind creates an energy field as a by product of the chemical and neural processes of a living functional body and if one is at all "empathic" they have to ability to feel/see this energy field that is created. Because I am extremely empathic I know this to be real and science is also proving that this is real. So the question becomes, does this energy field continue to exist after death? Jewish religious belief says "no", but most other religions, both past and present, believe "yes". And John 14:2-3 would indicate that it is possible, at least for those that follow Lord Jesus.

So, ok sir, I now understand where you are coming from and what your point is ! If one believes that the Holy Bible, Christian Scripture, in its entirety, is the word of God (which is not biblical and is a belief), then they have to also believe that one's soul is not automatically immortal. Because, their belief would have to follow the religious belief of the Jewish religion relative to the immortality of the soul. And they would also have to give up the concept of "Hell" happening anytime before at least the final judgement. How am I doing Radrook sir ?

 

[Dale]

On the existence of an immortal soul, put it this way.

As far as I know, angels don't have physical bodies. If they do assume bodies at times, it isn't essential to who and what they are. So if angels don't have bodies, and there is no such thing as a soul, then what are angels?

Yet the Bible is quite clear that there are angels. They mentioned everywhere from Genesis to Revelation.
If angels have souls, why wouldn't mortals also have souls?

 

[Hillsage]

On the existence of an immortal soul, put it this way.

As far as I know, angels don't have physical bodies.

I agree, because they are spirit beings and not body/soul beings.

If they do assume bodies at times, it isn't essential to who and what they are. So if angels don't have bodies, and there is no such thing as a soul, then what are angels?

HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Yet the Bible is quite clear that there are angels. They mentioned everywhere from Genesis to Revelation.
If angels have souls, why wouldn't mortals also have souls?

I know of nothing in scripture to indicate that angels have souls.

 

[Der Alte]

Well sir, Greek philosophy does have an affect on things if one studies this stuff a bit: ) . So I guess the question would be what part of that affect is biblical and what part is not? First of all, "Hell" is not biblical until the last judgement after the one thousand year reign of Christ.

That part of things is pure Greek influence. So what happens to a non Christian or a bad Christian when they die is anybodies guess with the understanding that biblical is they die and ceace to exist, at least until the first judgement. Unless of course one is a Roman Catholic who believes in Purgatory, which is not biblical either.

So what is biblical? John 14:2-3 is biblical. And John 14:2-3 is probably, when combined with Geek philosophy, the foundation of the belief in going to Christian Heaven when one as a Christian dies. And most see this Christian Heaven as the same kind of Heaven that the Greeks considered it to be.

So from there the question becomes, what part of us goes to this place that Lord Jesus has prepared for us? Soul: n. 1. The animating and vital priciple in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion. So if we accept the dictionary definition of "soul", then the soul would have to go with us or we wouldn't exist as any kind of conscous entity.

The human body (actually the bodies of all living things do) and mind creates an energy field as a by product of the chemical and neural processes of a living functional body and if one is at all "empathic" they have to ability to feel/see this energy field that is created. Because I am extremely empathic I know this to be real and science is also proving that this is real.

So the question becomes, does this energy field continue to exist after death? Jewish religious belief says "no", but most other religions, both past and present, believe "yes". And John 14:2-3 would indicate that it is possible, at least for those that follow Lord Jesus.

So, ok sir, I now understand where you are coming from and what your point is: ) ! If one believes that the Holy Bible, Christian Scripture, in its entirety, is the word of God (which is not biblical and is a belief), then they have to also believe that one's soul is not automatically immortal.

Because, their belief would have to follow the religious belief of the Jewish religion relative to the immortality of the soul. And they would also have to give up the concept of "Hell" happening anytime before at least the final judgement. How am I doing Radrook sir: )

?

There is an internet fable floating around that shows up on this forum frequently. The fable alleges that there is no hell, that it is not Biblical and that Christians copied their concept of hell from Greek fables. One version of the fable is that former pagan who became Christians were allowed to keep some of their beliefs, such as hell, to make Christianity more acceptable to them.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

 

[Radrook]

Well sir, Greek philosophy does have an affect on things if one studies this stuff a bit . So I guess the question would be what part of that affect is biblical and what part is not? First of all, "Hell" is not biblical until the last judgement after the one thousand year reign of Christ. That part of things is pure Greek influence. So what happens to a non Christian or a bad Christian when they die is anybodies guess with the understanding that biblical is they die and ceace to exist, at least until the first judgement. Unless of course one is a Roman Catholic who believes in Purgatory, which is not biblical either. So what is biblical? John 14:2-3 is biblical. And John 14:2-3 is probably, when combined with Geek philosophy, the foundation of the belief in going to Christian Heaven when one as a Christian dies. And most see this Christian Heaven as the same kind of Heaven that the Greeks considered it to be. So from there the question becomes, what part of us goes to this place that Lord Jesus has prepared for us? Soul: n. 1. The animating and vital priciple in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion. So if we accept the dictionary definition of "soul", then the soul would have to go with us or we wouldn't exist as any kind of conscous entity.

The human body (actually the bodies of all living things do) and mind creates an energy field as a by product of the chemical and neural processes of a living functional body and if one is at all "empathic" they have to ability to feel/see this energy field that is created. Because I am extremely empathic I know this to be real and science is also proving that this is real. So the question becomes, does this energy field continue to exist after death? Jewish religious belief says "no", but most other religions, both past and present, believe "yes". And John 14:2-3 would indicate that it is possible, at least for those that follow Lord Jesus.

So, ok sir, I now understand where you are coming from and what your point is ! If one believes that the Holy Bible, Christian Scripture, in its entirety, is the word of God (which is not biblical and is a belief), then they have to also believe that one's soul is not automatically immortal. Because, their belief would have to follow the religious belief of the Jewish religion relative to the immortality of the soul. And they would also have to give up the concept of "Hell" happening anytime before at least the final judgement. How am I doing Radrook sir ?

On the existence of an immortal soul, put it this way.

As far as I know, angels don't have physical bodies. If they do assume bodies at times, it isn't essential to who and what they are. So if angels don't have bodies, and there is no such thing as a soul, then what are angels?

Yet the Bible is quite clear that there are angels. They mentioned everywhere from Genesis to Revelation.
If angels have souls, why wouldn't mortals also have souls?

wrong place posted.

 

[Radrook]

On the existence of an immortal soul, put it this way.

As far as I know, angels don't have physical bodies. If they do assume bodies at times, it isn't essential to who and what they are. So if angels don't have bodies, and there is no such thing as a soul, then what are angels?

Yet the Bible is quite clear that there are angels. They mentioned everywhere from Genesis to Revelation.
If angels have souls, why wouldn't mortals also have souls?

Just out of curiosity why do you assume that angels lack bodies when Paul clearly points out that there are physical bodies and heavenly ones? The fact that they are able to materialize human bodies as they did during Noah's day or possess human bodies doesn't require that they be bodiless. To be honest, I can't even conceive of what a bodiless entity is and neither can sci fi authors who always depict entities no matter how ephemeral as having some type of form. WEIRD! Am I misunderstanding you I some profound way?

1 Cor 15: 24

The Resurrection Body
…43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit.”…

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable

Also, nowhere in the Bible are angels said to have souls.
In fact, Adam himself is referred to as a soul Nephesh and so are animals.

Genesis 2:7 ►
New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

[Dale]

I agree, because they are spirit beings and not body/soul beings.

HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.


I know of nothing in scripture to indicate that angels have souls.

On angels having souls, traditionally the church taught that there was a Fall of Rebel Angels. If mortals are said to lose their souls when they go to hell, wouldn't the same be true of fallen angels?

 

[redleghunter]

Considering what Christian reliable sources of info say about the origin of the concept of an immortal soul, why do Christians insists on the contrary?

The New Bible Dictionary: “The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul” (1996, p. 1010, “Resurrection”).



The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains: “We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament” (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, “Death”).



“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5

)



(Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, p. 237-238, emphasis added).“Nephesh: “the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath ... The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the 'body' and 'soul' which are really Greek and Latin in origin"

Could you please elaborate with Holy Scriptures?

 

[Hillsage]

On angels having souls, traditionally the church taught that there was a Fall of Rebel Angels. If mortals are said to lose their souls when they go to hell, wouldn't the same be true of fallen angels?

I can't expect you to know this, since I believe most don't, but here's a verse which really does apply to what you just said;

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life/psuche shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/psuche for my sake shall find it.

IOW, I don't think anyone "loses their soul in hell". If fact, it appears that they lose their soul on earth so that it may be saved.

The Greek word 'PSUCHE' is the word which is translated as 'SOUL' 58 times in the NT. But 41 times it's translated as LIFE, as it is in this verse above. 5 times it's 'LIVES', 3 times it's 'MINDS', and 2 times it's 'HEART'.

So it's no wonder people don't really know what they believe, when the translators never kept things consistent so one could know, if all they do is read their bible.

 

[Dale]

I agree, because they are spirit beings and not body/soul beings.

HEB 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.


I know of nothing in scripture to indicate that angels have souls.

3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.

--Psalm 8: 3-5 NIV


3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

--Psalm 8:3-5 KJV


Traditional and modern translations are in agreement on this point.
If man, human beings, are “a little lower than the angels,” it would be most strange if humans had souls and angels did not.



34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”

--Luke 20: 34-36 NIV


34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

--Luke 20: 34-36 KJV


The notion that angels don't have souls seems to assume that angels are just puppets, automations. This isn't what Scripture says. Luke tells us that when we get to heaven we will be “like the angels” or “equal to the angels.”

 

[Dale]

I can't expect you to know this, since I believe most don't, but here's a verse which really does apply to what you just said;

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life/psuche shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/psuche for my sake shall find it.

IOW, I don't think anyone "loses their soul in hell". If fact, it appears that they lose their soul on earth so that it may be saved.

The Greek word 'PSUCHE' is the word which is translated as 'SOUL' 58 times in the NT. But 41 times it's translated as LIFE, as it is in this verse above. 5 times it's 'LIVES', 3 times it's 'MINDS', and 2 times it's 'HEART'.

So it's no wonder people don't really know what they believe, when the translators never kept things consistent so one could know, if all they do is read their bible.

Hillsage,

If you look at the verse in context, Jesus is talking about the persecution of His followers. “Whoever finds their life will lose it” means that those who save their lives by denying Christ will lose their souls in eternity.



37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Matthew 10:37-39 NIV


For instance, look at what Matthew Henry's commentary says about this passage.

Quote
Thirdly, Before life itself, v. 39. He that findeth his life shall lose it; he that thinks he had found it when he has saved it, and kept it, by denying Christ, shall lose it in an eternal death; but he that loseth his life for Christ’s sake, that will part with it rather than deny Christ, shall find it, to his unspeakable advantage, an eternal life. They are best prepared for the life to come, that sit most loose to this present life.[9.]
End Quote

Link

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/matthew/10.html

 

[Hillsage]

3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.

--Psalm 8: 3-5 NIV


3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

--Psalm 8:3-5 KJV


Traditional and modern translations are in agreement on this point.
If man, human beings, are “a little lower than the angels,” it would be most strange if humans had souls and angels did not.



34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”

--Luke 20: 34-36 NIV


34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

--Luke 20: 34-36 KJV


The notion that angels don't have souls seems to assume that angels are just puppets, automations. This isn't what Scripture says. Luke tells us that when we get to heaven we will be “like the angels” or “equal to the angels.”

I think the scripture I quoted spells out that 'angels are spirits' (Heb 1 7). Man isn't, he is "spirit/soul/body" (1Th 5 23). So when I look at the verses you quoted I see that being made lower simply means we are made less than pure spirit beings which is what God is. "God is spirit" (Joh 4 24). As men who are to be "led of the spirit" I don't follow how you think spirits "are just puppet, automations." The spirit has emotions "fruit of the Spirit" and it has cognitive manifestations "gifts of the Spirit".

And when we die we will not put on earthly bodies but spiritual ones. So I see being made lower as the angels as just that, we are less than pure spiritual beings, like the angels right now.

1CO 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage,

If you look at the verse in context, Jesus is talking about the persecution of His followers. “Whoever finds their life will lose it” means that those who save their lives by denying Christ will lose their souls in eternity.

I do read it in context, but I obviously don't read it like you are. When scripture tells us to "die to sin"...sin is our carnal minded soul. Putting on the 'mind of Christ' is transforming our carnal minded soul into the spiritually minded soul that Jesus attained as he also suffered persecution to become perfect. He wasn't born perfect he was born sinless.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Jesus isn't just the pioneer of our salvation he is the pattern we are also to follow. That is the context of the 'persecution/suffering' scripture we disagree on IMO.

Thirdly, Before life itself, v. 39. He that findeth his life shall lose it; he that thinks he had found it when he has saved it, and kept it, by denying Christ, shall lose it in an eternal death; but he that loseth his life for Christ’s sake, that will part with it rather than deny Christ, shall find it, to his unspeakable advantage, an eternal life. They are best prepared for the life to come, that sit most loose to this present life.[9.]
End Quote
Link
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/matthew/10.html

I asked you to define soul, which you never did. I don't believe Matthew Henry's comment reveal that he understood the triune salvation of man. Going to heaven in the hereafter is not determined by the salvation of your soul, it is determined by the salvation of your spirit. And that salvation was appropriated by the work of Jesus and not us. Rewards in heaven though, are determined by us here and now. And they are based upon how much of our soul (def; mind/will/emotions) salvation was worked out by 'obedience' on our part, on the 'here and now' side of eternity.

PHI 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;


EDIT: I just went back and checked I guess I didn't ask you to define soul. So I'll just ask if you agree with my definition above; that the soul is basically our mind/will/emotions?

 

[tucker58]

There is an internet fable floating around that shows up on this forum frequently. The fable alleges that there is no hell, that it is not Biblical and that Christians copied their concept of hell from Greek fables. One version of the fable is that former pagan who became Christians were allowed to keep some of their beliefs, such as hell, to make Christianity more acceptable to them.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

Sir, that works for me . And thank you for your input, and it was very well written!

 

[Butch5]

Considering what Christian reliable sources of info say about the origin of the concept of an immortal soul, why do Christians insists on the contrary?

The New Bible Dictionary: “The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul” (1996, p. 1010, “Resurrection”).



The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains: “We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament” (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, “Death”).



“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5

)



(Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, p. 237-238, emphasis added).“Nephesh: “the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath ... The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the 'body' and 'soul' which are really Greek and Latin in origin"

I think the reason is that many simply don't study the Bible deeply. I think too many rely on pastors and teachers for their theology. Many of these pastors and teachers have gone to seminary and are just repeating what they learned.

You are correct that the "Immortal Soul" doctrine is not Biblical. The apostle Paul makes that abundantly clear when speaking of the Father he says, 'who only has immortality'. The Father alone has immortality. Everything else that lives receives life from God. It is an ongoing process.

 

[Butch5]

I do read it in context, but I obviously don't read it like you are. When scripture tells us to "die to sin"...sin is our carnal minded soul. Putting on the 'mind of Christ' is transforming our carnal minded soul into the spiritually minded soul that Jesus attained as he also suffered persecution to become perfect. He wasn't born perfect he was born sinless.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Jesus isn't just the pioneer of our salvation he is the pattern we are also to follow. That is the context of the 'persecution/suffering' scripture we disagree on IMO.


I asked you to define soul, which you never did. I don't believe Matthew Henry's comment reveal that he understood the triune salvation of man. Going to heaven in the hereafter is not determined by the salvation of your soul, it is determined by the salvation of your spirit. And that salvation was appropriated by the work of Jesus and not us. Rewards in heaven though, are determined by us here and now. And they are based upon how much of our soul (def; mind/will/emotions) salvation was worked out by 'obedience' on our part, on the 'here and now' side of eternity.

PHI 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;


EDIT: I just went back and checked I guess I didn't ask you to define soul. So I'll just ask if you agree with my definition above; that the soul is basically our mind/will/emotions?

Actually, it's the soul that's saved.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb. 10:38-39 KJV)