"Soul Sleep"; Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[Dave-W]

So how can you trust what the Bible states?

By looking at the Hebrew and Greek.

There is a reason God ordained the office of "teacher" in the church. That way not everyone has to be fluent in Hebrew and Greek.

And what to do with the ambiguities? I realize that "now we see thru a glass darkly..." and that God has INTENTIONALLY left some things vague. And I am ok with that.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Ya,... me too.
Understanding gets a little clearer when using context and proof texting but there are so many layers of truth and wisdom in His Word that we will spend an eternity discovering them...

 

[BobRyan]

Do you realize that some texts (both the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek) can be completely ambiguous as to how it gets translated?

You posted that as a response to this --

this is a rabbit trail - until you make a case that some set of more literal translations - agree with your view when it comes to Nov 11, 2015 #43

you never actually make the case that you are camped out on -- you never show that the difference in POV as shown in my quotes in post #43 are a result of 'translation errors' --

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

By looking at the Hebrew and Greek.

There is a reason God ordained the office of "teacher" in the church. That way not everyone has to be fluent in Hebrew and Greek.

And what to do with the ambiguities? I realize that "now we see thru a glass darkly..." and that God has INTENTIONALLY left some things vague. And I am ok with that.

Very little is left vague.

Read it as an entire book, cover to cover.



This thread is so convoluted........what were you all talking about anyway.......? lol

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Soul sleep????????/

Want to learn something?
Watch parts 1 and 2 but part 3 answers a lot of questions.

 

[BobRyan]

Part 3 alone is 1 hour 20 minutes. Which is about 1 hour and 16 minutes longer than I am willing to hang around given the first 3 minutes and 19 seconds of the video. Why not give us your take on it?

 

[Dave-W]

Very little is left vague.
Read it as an entire book, cover to cover.

I have. A few times.
And if you do that without the church-added interpretations intended to fill in the gaps - there are a LOT of things left unanswered.

And that is OK. But we westerners are not comfortable with ambiguity. Because then WE are in control and not someone else. Take for example the day of the Lord's return. He told us "No one knows the day or the hour, not even the Son of Man." And yet people keep trying to set dates. They spend years in their calculations on something HE already told us is not ours to know. Even in this very forum people are arguing over how many years a "time" is to try to discern that time line.

Forget it. You can't do it. What ever you come up with will be wrong. We cannot comprehend that calculation until after "that which is perfect is come," and we can "see face to face." (1 Cor 13)

 

[Light of the East]

Ps 146:
2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death

Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.

Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God

Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

(Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 - )

Isaiah 38

18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

The problem with these "proofs" is that they all take place under the economy of the Old Covenant. Now in the Old Covenant, mankind, even the righteous ones, were separated from God and could not enter into His presence. There was either "sleep" or the waiting in Paradise (which seems the more accurate) for those who died in the faith of the coming Messiah.

The New Covenant changed everything. No longer was there a separation from the Father by the sin of Adam and its consequence. Therefore, the righteous were able to go directly to heaven after the establishment of the New Covenant.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

We also see the souls of the righteous in heaven in Revelation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So these souls are not in "soul sleep." They are alive in Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Ps 146:
2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,


Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.


Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death

Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!


No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.


Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;


No memory of God

Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?
(Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 - )


Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

The problem with these "proofs" is that they all take place under the economy of the Old Covenant.

We are not talking about animal sacrifices - we are talking about human life and what does not does not happen to the soul at the point of the first death.

Now in the Old Covenant, mankind, even the righteous ones, were separated from God and could not enter into His presence.

Until you read Matt 17 where we find that before the cross - Moses and Elijah are standing with Christ in glorified form.

"The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:2
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9

There was either "sleep" or the waiting in Paradise (which seems the more accurate) for those who died in the faith of the coming Messiah.

Sleep is mentioned in Dan 12:1-2 and in John 11, and in 1Thess 4 -- but there is nothing in all of scripture about "waiting in Paradise".

Rather -- "Paradise" is where the throne of God and the tree of life are according to the book of Revelation.

Jer 31:31-33 -- NEW Covenant.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Really -- "WHEN"??
WHILE what was going on??

1 Peter 3:20 "WHEN once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, WHILE the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

We also see the souls of the righteous in heaven in Revelation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

All crowded under the altar - and all in the NT -- sounds like a problem if this is not a symbol in Revelation.

Heb 11: 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Heb 12 : 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Gen 4
9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.

1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

So these souls are not in "soul sleep." They are alive in Christ.

In a clump under the altar -- or is it just a symbol in the symbolic book of Revelation?

Your argument is "with the text"

"the dead in Christ will rise first."

I can say that because I am among " we who are alive and remain "

 

[Light of the East]

We are not talking about animal sacrifices - we are talking about human life and what does not does not happen to the soul at the point of the first death.

Right. And under the Old Covenant, mankind was separated from God by the Fall. Therefore, it was impossible for mankind to enter into the "promised land" of heaven with God. The sin of the Fall had to be addressed.

Until you read Matt 17 where we find that before the cross - Moses and Elijah are standing with Christ in glorified form.

Which actually proves my point, not yours. They are not asleep because they are with Christ. It would appear that they came from Paradise where they were waiting with the rest of the righteous for the coming of the Messiah.

Sleep is mentioned in Dan 12:1-2 and in John 11, and in 1Thess 4 -- but there is nothing in all of scripture about "waiting in Paradise".

Sleep is a euphemism for "death." A metaphor. Funny how you arbitrarily decide to use metaphor in one place and not in another.

Rather -- "Paradise" is where the throne of God and the tree of life are according to the book of Revelation.

Paradise is paradise. But apparently there is a place which is a holding place, or "prison," where the spirits of the dead were when Christ went to preach to them

Really -- "WHEN"??
WHILE what was going on??

Scripture doesn't say. But it DOES say that Christ went there and preached to them. You should believe what the Scriptures teach.

All crowded under the altar - and all in the NT -- sounds like a problem if this is not a symbol in Revelation.

So when something contradicts your pet theories, you choose to make it a symbol, right?

In a clump under the altar -- or is it just a symbol in the symbolic book of Revelation?

 

[BobRyan]

We are not talking about animal sacrifices - we are talking about human life and what does not does not happen to the soul at the point of the first death.

Right. And under the Old Covenant, mankind was separated from God by the Fall. Therefore, it was impossible for mankind to enter into the "promised land" of heaven with God. The sin of the Fall had to be addressed.

Until you read Matt 17 where we find that before the cross - Moses and Elijah are standing with Christ in glorified form.

"The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:2
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9

.

Which actually proves my point, not yours. They are not asleep because they are with Christ. It would appear that they came from Paradise where they were waiting with the rest of the righteous for the coming of the Messiah.

1. There is no "waiting in paradise" phrase in all of scripture - and we both know it.
2. Elijah was translated directly to heaven without dying according to 2Kings 2 and Moses is the subject of the book "The Assumption of Moses" quoted by Jude in the New Testament.

Your point was that they could not possibly be glorified and with God - and yet we see them with the Glorified Christ in Matt 17.

What is more - the Bible only places Paradise - with God - never "apart from God".

And of course - Sleep is mentioned in Dan 12:1-2 and in John 11, and in 1Thess 4 -- but there is nothing in all of scripture about "waiting in Paradise".

Sleep is a euphemism for "death." A metaphor.

In the first death - the soul sleeps to be awaken at the resurrection. "Our Friend Lazarus SLEEPS' John 11


Rather -- "Paradise" is where the throne of God and the tree of life are according to the book of Revelation.

Paradise is paradise.

So it is - and the Bible definition is easy to discover because it only has it 3 places.

But apparently there is a place which is a holding place, or "prison," where the spirits of the dead were when Christ went to preach to them

Really -- "WHEN"??
WHILE what was going on??

1 Peter 3:20 "WHEN once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, WHILE the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

Scripture doesn't say. But it DOES say that Christ went there and preached to them.

On the contrary - Scripture DOES say:
1 Peter 3:20 "WHEN once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, WHILE the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

What it does not say is -- that he "preached to the spirits of the dead"

do you know "WHEN" God was enduring with much patience in the days of Noah?
do you know that this was "While" the ark was being prepared??

You should believe what the Scriptures teach.

All crowded under the altar - and all in the NT -- sounds like a problem if this is not a symbol in Revelation.
In a clump under the altar -- or is it just a symbol in the symbolic book of Revelation?

So when something contradicts your pet theories, you choose to make it a symbol, right?

hmm.. Revelation is symbolic and 1 Peter 3 is not... You are serious about this being some sort of secret that only I might know about?

 

[YHWH's Lion]

Let me prove to you how your firm stance in your soul sleep doctrine is false. If EVERYONE who dies sleeps and waits for a resurrection then who are the 24 elders in the book of revelation? If these are humans than your entire argument falls apart because God can Take to his side who ever he chooses. There is no reason for infants or children to be kept away from their father.

 

[BobRyan]

Let me prove to you how your firm stance in your soul sleep doctrine is false. If EVERYONE who dies sleeps and waits for a resurrection then who are the 24 elders in the book of revelation? If these are humans than your entire argument falls apart because God can Take to his side who ever he chooses. There is no reason for infants or children to be kept away from their father.

I appreciate your approach here - but there are two or three problems with it.

1. There is nothing in Revelation that says the 24 elders are humans.
2. Matthew 27:50-53 says that a great many humans got resurrected with Christ.
3. Ephesians 4 says that at Christ's ascension He went to heaven as a conquering King having taken with him a host of captives -- those whom He won at the death and resurrection --> saints.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

I appreciate your approach here - but there are two or three problems with it.

1. There is nothing in Revelation that says the 24 elders are humans.
2. Matthew 27:50-53 says that a great many humans got resurrected with Christ.
3. Ephesians 4 says that at Christ's ascension He went to heaven as a conquering King having taken with him a host of captives -- those whom He won at the death and resurrection --> saints.

Ok so 1) Are you saying they are not human? they have white raiment on and crowns(rev 3:5 "he that overcometh the same shall be clothed in white raiment " and are the saints not promised crowns? 2) did Lazarus die again after he was resurrected ? probably, we do not know. Just as we do not know what happened to the people resurrected with Jesus. If you believe Moses is with God in heaven than God can choose to bring to him whoever he wants, they don't necessarily have to "sleep" this simple fact destroys the whole fundamental belief that we ALL sleep after death. 3) Ephesians 4 says "when he ascended up on high he led captivity captive and gave gifts on to men" i sure hope you have a better verse to stand on than this verse that supports the idea the the risen people were taken to heaven with Jesus. Either way, if anything it shows again that God can take to him whoever he wants and that not ALL necessarily have to "sleep"

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Ok so 1) Are you saying they are not human? they have white raiment on and crowns(rev 3:5 "he that overcometh the same shall be clothed in white raiment " and are the saints not promised crowns? 2) did Lazarus die again after he was resurrected ? probably, we do not know. Just as we do not know what happened to the people resurrected with Jesus. If you believe Moses is with God in heaven than God can choose to bring to him whoever he wants, they don't necessarily have to "sleep" this simple fact destroys the whole fundamental belief that we ALL sleep after death. 3) Ephesians 4 says "when he ascended up on high he led captivity captive and gave gifts on to men" i sure hope you have a better verse to stand on than this verse that supports the idea the the risen people were taken to heaven with Jesus. Either way, if anything it shows again that God can take to him whoever he wants and that not ALL necessarily have to "sleep"

The 24 that were resurrected and taken with Christ to Heaven, were the first fruits offering of the redeemed fulfilling that typical event. To your point that because 24 people were taken to Heaven out of multiple billions of people that were ever created that now sleep, that would still signify "all" to anyone that wasn't trying to make a contentious point.

 

[Light of the East]

Ya,... me too.
Understanding gets a little clearer when using context and proof texting but there are so many layers of truth and wisdom in His Word that we will spend an eternity discovering them...

We will not be interestested at all in His Word in eternity because we will be with the Living Word, the One to whom the written word merely points. Why would I have any interest in the shadow when I will be with the Substance and be able to plumb the depths of His love forever?

 

[YHWH's Lion]

The 24 that were resurrected and taken with Christ to Heaven, were the first fruits offering of the redeemed fulfilling that typical event. To your point that because 24 people were taken to Heaven out of multiple billions of people that were ever created that now sleep, that would still signify "all" to anyone that wasn't trying to make a contentious point.

No I'm sorry the bible never calls them the first fruits. Christ is called the first fruits and the 144,000 are called the first fruits but not the people resurrected with Christ, so this is not what scripture says but just your assumption also the scripture never says that these people went to heaven with Christ so once again you are adding to scripture which bible forbids. Also Moses is with God right? As I said God can take anyone to heaven that he wants anytime that he wants, and for you to say NO he can't that is just silly.

 

[BobRyan]

The 24 that were resurrected and taken with Christ to Heaven, were the first fruits offering of the redeemed fulfilling that typical event. To your point that because 24 people were taken to Heaven out of multiple billions of people that were ever created that now sleep, that would still signify "all" to anyone that wasn't trying to make a contentious point.

Christ is the first fruits in 1 Cor 15.

But in Eph 4 we find that those raised in Matt 27 are taken to heaven with Christ - as examples of the victory Christ won for lost, doomed humanity.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok so 1) Are you saying they are not human? they have white raiment on and crowns

1. So do angels.
2. I am saying the Bible does not say they are humans.
3. I am saying that even if they were - that would merely open the door that the Matt 27 and Eph 4 group are in heaven. Which I do not oppose.

If you believe Moses is with God in heaven than God can choose to bring to him whoever he wants

Moses is in heaven because of bodily resurrection and bodily assumption of Moses into heaven as recorded in the book "the Assumption of Moses" - quoted in the book of Jude.

, they don't necessarily have to "sleep" this simple fact destroys the whole fundamental belief

Until you actually read 1 Thess 4 and John 11.

There we find that the dead do in fact sleep.

But raising the dead in Matt 27 - - is not a claim that 'they still sleep anyway' rather they awake.


Ephesians 4 says "
8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”

So then we have those freed from the prison of death in Matt 27 - taken to heaven.

Which means even IF the Bible HAD said the 27 elders were redeemed saints (which it does not) -- this group could not be ruled out as the source from which that group of 24 elders had been taken.

The point remains.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

1. So do angels.
2. I am saying the Bible does not say they are humans.
3. I am saying that even if they were - that would merely open the door that the Matt 27 and Eph 4 group are in heaven. Which I do not oppose.



Moses is in heaven because of bodily resurrection and bodily assumption of Moses into heaven as recorded in the book "the Assumption of Moses" - quoted in the book of Jude.



Until you actually read 1 Thess 4 and John 11.

There we find that the dead do in fact sleep.

But raising the dead in Matt 27 - - is not a claim that 'they still sleep anyway' rather they awake.


Ephesians 4 says "
8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”

So then we have those freed from the prison of death in Matt 27 - taken to heaven.

Which means even IF the Bible HAD said the 27 elders were redeemed saints (which it does not) -- this group could not be ruled out as the source from which that group of 24 elders had been taken.

The point remains.

First of all bible never shows angles wearing crowns. So the elders are wearing white robes and crowns. It seams pretty clear.
The point that remains is that God can choose to take to heaven anyone he wants, when ever he wants. Who are you to say otherwise ? he took Moses and if he took the raised with Christ than that just proves he can take who ever when ever he wants. Like dead children. Who are you to be so sure that he wont/can't? We have no idea who is in heaven now.
Therefore not all have to necessary sleep. And please don't build a whole doctrine on one verse, Eph 4, especially a verse that isn't clear.