Something I didn't know about black holes that blew my mind!

sk8Joyful

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Is it not somewhat pointless
to debate about topics that largely exist of theories,
instead of facts anyway? :) Just wondering :)
Well, do the (whatever) Theories & Facts "apply to our daily life"? :cool: How so? ;)

When it's constructive theory & achievable :thumbsup: facts, how many do you wonder about?, for practicing... & what are some that you constructively LOVE... practicing. - I too wonder how many more I can additionally :clap: apply. - got ideas ...?... Inquiring :D minds wanna know.

Cheers! :wave:
 
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Tielec

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Is it not somewhat pointless to debate about topics that largely exist of theories instead of facts anyway? :)
Could it be possible that the whole concept of black holes are too complex to be fully understood - limited to this dimension? Just wondering :)

I get what you are trying to say - but watch the semantics when using words like theories and facts.

Theories don't ever become facts, theories explain facts.
If you drop your shoe off a wall it falls. That is a fact. The theory of gravity (relativity) explains why your shoe falls.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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say
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaT ^_^
really? - Gravity is NOT real :confused: - wow :D !!!
um,
would you like to come to the rink, with me for
practice... :) and show me how
I can just ...FLOAT... for say 10-revolutions :thumbsup: above the ice, skating the Axel.

oh, to be the next Olympic-gold figureskating champion :clap:
It seems you really are confused.

Gravity (an ancient observation) is real; gravitation (a 17th century fairy tale) is not real.

"Well, you know, if you flip a coin it doesn't come back down again if you're in space." -- Buzz Aldrin, astronaut, 2007

Any questions?
 
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mzungu

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It seems you really are confused.

Gravity (an ancient observation) is real; gravitation (a 17th century fairy tale) is not real.

"Well, you know, if you flip a coin it doesn't come back down again if you're in space." -- Buzz Aldrin, astronaut, 2007

Any questions?
dont-feed-the-troll.gif
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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The guy who wrote the story addressed that issue too. He said since there's no such thing as faster than light travel, to say that going faster than light is to go back in time is nonsense. The equations tell us that time slows down as you approach the speed of light but, in his words, once you reach that point and try to go beyond, the equations "sort of throw up their hands and say, fine, sure, whatever."

The point of the story was to show that if you could go faster than the speed of light, it wouldn't matter because every direction is the same direction. But it further doesn't matter because nothing can travel faster than light. Period. And also, no ship could survive the tidal forces anyway. It would be ripped apart in less than a second.


EDIT: Also, because of the weirdness of relativity, even if you could go faster than the speed of light, you wouldn't feel like you were going back in time. But to some outside observers, you would have arrived at your destination before you left. But still, which direction do you point your ship when every direction is inward?
 
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Cute Tink

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I just have a minor objection to the statements like "nothing can travel faster than light" or that ships couldn't survive the forces involved. We don't really know that. It's simply a matter of our technology is not there yet. I prefer to think that nothing is truly impossible, we just aren't there yet.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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I just have a minor objection to the statements like "nothing can travel faster than light" or that ships couldn't survive the forces involved. We don't really know that. It's simply a matter of our technology is not there yet. I prefer to think that nothing is truly impossible, we just aren't there yet.

I meant the tidal forces inside a black hole. At some point, the gravitational gradient becomes so strong that no matter can withstand it. The force exerted approaches infinity and since nothing is infinitely strong, it is torn apart and crushed into a single point (or a ring if the black hole is spinning)

As far as the speed of light is concerned, that speed limit seems pretty rigid since it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate something that has mass to the speed of light. How do you generate that type of energy? And how do you generate MORE than infinite energy in order to go faster? Infinity+1 = infinity.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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I just have a minor objection to the statements like "nothing can travel faster than light" or that ships couldn't survive the forces involved.
Why not a major objection?

Pulsar bursts move 'faster than light' - physicsworld.com

Every physicist is taught that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. Yet laboratory experiments done over the last 30 years clearly show that some things appear to break this speed limit.... ...

Using the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico, they took radio data of the pulsar PSR B1937+21 at 1420.4 MHz with a 1.5 MHz bandwidth for three days. Oddly, those pulses close to the centre value arrived earlier than would be expected given the pulsar's normal timing, and therefore appeared to have travelled faster than the speed of light.

Single photons observed at seemingly faster-than-light speeds

ScienceDaily (Jan. 27, 2010) — Researchers at the Joint Quantum Institute (JQI), a collaboration of the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the University of Maryland at College Park, can speed up photons (particles of light) to seemingly faster-than-light speeds through a stack of materials by adding a single, strategically placed layer.

We don't really know that.
Einstein's followers know everything because they are omniscient demigods who can never be questioned...:thumbsup:

"You can imagine that I look back on my life's work with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, March 1949

"Special relativity was the result of 10 years of intellectual struggle, yet Einstein had convinced himself it was wrong within two years of publishing it. He had rejected his theory, even before most physicists had come to accept it." -- Lee Smolin, physicist, 2004

It's simply a matter of our technology is not there yet.
Our technology was there in ancient times and is there now. See above.

I prefer to think that nothing is truly impossible
You are smarter than them.

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." -- Arthur C. Clarke, author, 1962

"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible." -- Arthur C. Clarke, author, 1962

"Many times, physicists say that certain things are impossible – like physicists said that airplanes were impossible at one point. That’s because we didn’t understand the laws of physics very well." -- Michio Kaku, physicist, February 2008

"I believe the seemingly impossible has already happened." -- Theodore Knerly, physicist, March 2008

we just aren't there yet.
In fact, we are there now.

Pulsar bursts move 'faster than light' - physicsworld.com

Every physicist is taught that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. Yet laboratory experiments done over the last 30 years clearly show that some things appear to break this speed limit.... ...

Using the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico, they took radio data of the pulsar PSR B1937+21 at 1420.4 MHz with a 1.5 MHz bandwidth for three days. Oddly, those pulses close to the centre value arrived earlier than would be expected given the pulsar's normal timing, and therefore appeared to have travelled faster than the speed of light.

Single photons observed at seemingly faster-than-light speeds

ScienceDaily (Jan. 27, 2010) — Researchers at the Joint Quantum Institute (JQI), a collaboration of the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the University of Maryland at College Park, can speed up photons (particles of light) to seemingly faster-than-light speeds through a stack of materials by adding a single, strategically placed layer.
 
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I meant the tidal forces inside a black hole. At some point, the gravitational gradient becomes so strong that no matter can withstand it. The force exerted approaches infinity and since nothing is infinitely strong, it is torn apart and crushed into a single point (or a ring if the black hole is spinning)

That is a fair point. As far as well can tell, which isn't much given we cannot investigate inside a black hole, particularly at this point in our advancement, nothing could survive such a trip.

As far as the speed of light is concerned, that speed limit seems pretty rigid since it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate something that has mass to the speed of light. How do you generate that type of energy? And how do you generate MORE than infinite energy in order to go faster? Infinity+1 = infinity.

Again, this is based upon our understanding at this point. Show our current technology to someone 100 years ago and that person would be flabbergasted. I cannot even imagine where we will be in 100 years, let alone 1,000. There's a good chance that our understanding of how to do it is lacking at this point. Give it time and someone will find a way. I would say I guarantee it, but I doubt that I'll be around to collect.
 
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Why not a major objection?

Because I am not well versed in the progression of discoveries. I do, however, have confidence that we will advance beyond nearly all limitations given enough time.

You are smarter than them.

Well, thank you. ;)

In fact, we are there now.

What I mean is that we cannot yet propel a ship of any kind capable of carrying humans beyond the speed of light. However, as I said before, I have confidence that some day we will.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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That is a fair point. As far as well can tell, which isn't much given we cannot investigate inside a black hole, particularly at this point in our advancement, nothing could survive such a trip.



Again, this is based upon our understanding at this point. Show our current technology to someone 100 years ago and that person would be flabbergasted. I cannot even imagine where we will be in 100 years, let alone 1,000. There's a good chance that our understanding of how to do it is lacking at this point. Give it time and someone will find a way. I would say I guarantee it, but I doubt that I'll be around to collect.

That's true. At some point no one thought we'd go to the moon and now we have a probe that is on the verge of breaking out of our solar system.

But the speed limit isn't just based on our current technology, it's based on the math which itself is based on our understanding of how the universe works. If it doesn't take infinite acceleration for a finite amount of time, or an infinite amount of time at a finite acceleration for an object with any mass to reach light speed (and thus infinite energy) then our math is wrong from the very bottom up. And that'd be a huge issue. Of course if the evidence bears it out in the future then of course scientists will start from scratch on their math, but until then there's not really any reason to believe that anything with mass can travel faster than light.

Also, don't respond to AoS. S/he's a troll. ;)

EDIT: THis is the discussion I was hoping for! Thanks 8)
 
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That's true. At some point no one thought we'd go to the moon and now we have a probe that is on the verge of breaking out of our solar system.

But the speed limit isn't just based on our current technology, it's based on the math which itself is based on our understanding of how the universe works. If it doesn't take infinite acceleration for a finite amount of time, or an infinite amount of time at a finite acceleration for an object with any mass to reach light speed (and thus infinite energy) then our math is wrong from the very bottom up. And that'd be a huge issue. Of course if the evidence bears it out in the future then of course scientists will start from scratch on their math, but until then there's not really any reason to believe that anything with mass can travel faster than light.

The main issue that I see in this paragraph is your statement that it is based upon our understanding of the universe. The math, as you point out, is based on that understanding. To assume, at this point, that our ideas are spot on is probably wrong. Not to say that it's not worth exploring with whatever our abilities are at this point, we have seen, time and time again, that our best understanding is still lacking. Perhaps it won't be acceleration the same way we experience it with a car or space shuttle. Or, perhaps, we will have to discover a new energy source to accomplish it. We will get to it in time.

Unfortunately, despite the rapid advancement and discovery that we are going through now, it probably won't be possible in my lifetime to leave the solar system, much as I would love to be able to.

Also, don't respond to AoS. S/he's a troll. ;)

I find him rather entertaining most times. :thumbsup:

EDIT: THis is the discussion I was hoping for! Thanks 8)

I will discuss as far as I can. However, I am rather limited in my understanding of physics. I took one advanced physics class in high school and didn't pursue it after. My position is far more hypothetical in nature.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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The main issue that I see in this paragraph is your statement that it is based upon our understanding of the universe. The math, as you point out, is based on that understanding. To assume, at this point, that our ideas are spot on is probably wrong. Not to say that it's not worth exploring with whatever our abilities are at this point, we have seen, time and time again, that our best understanding is still lacking. Perhaps it won't be acceleration the same way we experience it with a car or space shuttle. Or, perhaps, we will have to discover a new energy source to accomplish it. We will get to it in time.

Unfortunately, despite the rapid advancement and discovery that we are going through now, it probably won't be possible in my lifetime to leave the solar system, much as I would love to be able to.

That's definitely true. And scientists are awesome because they're always pushing a scraping at the boundaries of human knowledge. I'm personally hoping they can stop aging before they break the light speed barrier haha. And it actually looks like they're hot in it's heels so we'll see where that goes in our lifetime.


I find him rather entertaining most times. :thumbsup:
Haha fair enough. As long as you know what you're getting in to.


I will discuss as far as I can. However, I am rather limited in my understanding of physics. I took one advanced physics class in high school and didn't pursue it after. My position is far more hypothetical in nature.

Psh. You know as much as I do. I went to a Christian highschool and then got a degree in 3D animation haha
 
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Rather interestingly related to AoS's deranged ramblings, particles and waves can be coerced into exceeding he speed of light in a particular medium, so you can make electrons travel through water faster than the speed of light in water, which is what is happening here:
cerenkov.jpg

What happens when things go too fast? : Starts With A Bang

Of course, the speed of light in a vaccum appears to be a completely different matter
 
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