Some words on Fr. Seraphim Rose

jckstraw72

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why is oca.org authoritative but not the Saints? what Saint does oca.org reference to demonstrate their position?

St. John Chrysostom, and others, says that God gave us such precise details in Genesis out of concern for our salvation.

and if you feel its not important, you can really feel free to not post. you're not going to convince me that it's not important. i had an entire semester dedicated to Cosmology in seminary, and now im working on a thesis about Fr. Seraphim's work on Genesis. my thesis advisor, Dr. Christopher Veniamin, has never once told me its not important. he's actually been quite excited to go more in depth on this issue.
 
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Adaephon

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why is oca.org authoritative but not the Saints?

Because I trust my priests and bishops to do the teaching rather than setting myself up as an arbiter of what I think they should be saying with some amateur personal study. If you want to argue with the Church, at least one jurisdiction of it, go right ahead. Just don't accept me and Devin to accept you as some judge of what is and isn't Orthodox in such a situation.
 
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88Devin07

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Just taking a guess, but possibly because the church agrees with Devin, that belief in creationism or evolution is not a big, salvific issue.

OCA - Q &amp A - Evolution & Orthodoxy

OCA - Reflections in Christ - Evolution or Creation Science?

There is also Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology which has released a faculty statement saying something similar to the OCA. This is on the official Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website:
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/d...culty Statement on Creation and Evolution.pdf

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware on faith, science and evolution:
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware on evolution - YouTube
 
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jckstraw72

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Because I trust my priests and bishops to do the teaching rather than setting myself up as an arbiter of what I think they should be saying with some amateur personal study. If you want to argue with the Church, at least one jurisdiction of it, go right ahead. Just don't accept me and Devin to accept you as some judge of what is and isn't Orthodox in such a situation.

of course you shouldn't take me as an authority. that would be absurd. that's why i've been presenting what is in the Saints. as you say, others are the authority. that's why i cannot say its not important - because the authorities have told me otherwise.
 
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88Devin07

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why is oca.org authoritative but not the Saints? what Saint does oca.org reference to demonstrate their position?

St. John Chrysostom, and others, says that God gave us such precise details in Genesis out of concern for our salvation.

and if you feel its not important, you can really feel free to not post. you're not going to convince me that it's not important.

Who interprets the Saints? You? Me?

Reading and interpreting the Saints can be just as bad as reading and interpreting the Bible. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Church warns against Orthodox Christians casually reading the Fathers and trying to interpret them.

Take a look at some of St. John Chrysostom's homilies against the Jews. Do you take him at his word 100% of the time and treat what he says as law? Or do you step back, and try to understand what was going on at the time, what did he know, what didn't he know, how was he formed by his society and his world. What is his private theological opinion, his micro-theology and what is doctrine?
 
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jckstraw72

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well for one, the modern Saints interpret the ancient Saints. Elder Paisios says that when evolution is applied to Christianity it becomes a blasphemy. there's not a lot of wiggle room there. not hard to understand.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Who interprets the Saints? You? Me?

Reading and interpreting the Saints can be just as bad as reading and interpreting the Bible. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Church warns against Orthodox Christians casually reading the Fathers and trying to interpret them.

Take a look at some of St. John Chrysostom's homilies against the Jews. Do you take him at his word 100% of the time and treat what he says as law? Or do you step back, and try to understand what was going on at the time, what did he know, what didn't he know, how was he formed by his society and his world. What is his private theological opinion, his micro-theology and what is doctrine?

I think it's because saint after saint, in all areas, have expressed the view of Creation. can you name any post Darwin saint who believes in evolution? it's not like jckstraw is picking and choosing what commentaries on creation he wants to read, they are pretty consistent. so can you name any post Darwinin saint who clearly expresses evolution?

and, please, could everyone here arguing in favor of evolution stop making it sound like YEC think that theistic evolutionists are less Orthodox. you all are not, we are just disagreeing.
 
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Yoder777

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If you are looking for a perspective on evolution from an actual scientist, this is a good choice:
Beauty and unity in creation: The evolution of life

Author: Gayle E Woloschak

With insight into science and scientific approaches, Beauty and Unity in Creation brings the beauty of nature in focus, putting an Orthodox perspective on scientific exploration. As the author relates scientific facts into meaning, she cultivates a correct attitude toward scientific knowledge: we are reminded that any real truth abides in the Truth. While exploring the subject of evolution from an Orthodox perspective, this book actually locates the place of man in the universe and defines man's relationship with the rest of the living world.
Beauty and unity in creation: The evolution of life by Gayle E Woloschak | St. John's Bookstore | Eastern Orthodox Christian Books | Beeswax Candles | Church Candles | Handmade and Handcrafted Soap

I am only posting this again because I think it would be better to educate ourselves instead of going into a lengthy debate when there are perhaps more important things about Fr. Seraphim to discuss.
 
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Macarius

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The writings of the saints, especially the early ones, are also not nearly as cut and dry as Jck wants to make them seem. For an alternative perspective to Fr. Rose's, try Dr. Peter Bouteneff's book Beginnings - it tracks how Genesis 1 and 2 were used first by other Old Testament sources (including the Deuterocanon), then early Jewish sources, then by the New Testament (esp. St. Paul), then in the early Church (Irenaeus, Origen, the Cappadocian Fathers).

The picture you get is quite a bit more varied than the modern creationists would like it to seem.

In keeping with other elements of "Western captivity" - it appears to me that modernist concern with creationism stems more from Western (esp German Protestant) understandings of literal-historicism as THE criterion for Biblical inspiration. Just like we have saints who wrote under the heavy influence of Latin scholasticism (basically from the 1500's up through the modern day), so we also have some influence from anti-modern fundamentalism on our theology as well. Thus, the fact that some modern saints have commented against evolution is not particularly problematic to me. It remains an open question within the Church.

To put it in an opposing way, many saints believed in phoenixes and unicorns. We are not obliged to believe in those things. Some things are central tenants of the faith, some things are not. I've yet to see on what basis theistic evolution violates a central tenant of the faith.
 
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jckstraw72

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To put it in an opposing way, many saints believed in phoenixes and unicorns. We are not obliged to believe in those things. Some things are central tenants of the faith, some things are not. I've yet to see on what basis theistic evolution violates a central tenant of the faith.

if evolution is true then death is not a result of man's sin, because it necessarily predated man. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Fathers following Wisdom and St. Paul, tell us clearly that God created nothing to die. St. Basil, in his Hexameron, says that He Who is Life could not have created death, for He created nothing evil. But if God used evolution, then He created and used death, and all that God created is good, so death is good. so God contradicts Himself then by defeating death for the renewal of the entire cosmos. And to distinguish between human and animal death doesn't cut it, because the Fathers also teach that animals, and the entire cosmos, only took on corruption at man's sin. so while many people insist that they are compatible or that this issue doesn't matter, this is at least one of the burning issues that needs to be addressed coherently without sacrificing Orthodoxy.

has anyone ever harmonized evolution with the theology of the logoi? I'm only aware of one author who tackled the problem and he concluded that the two are incompatible. there simply are too many issues that need to be worked through that just make it ridiculous for people to simply proclaim that evolution is compatible. It really has to be demonstrated, not proclaimed. This is the importance of Fr. Seraphim's work -- he didn't just proclaim, but rather spent 9 nine years intensely studying and praying about this, and then he demonstrated why be finds evolution and Orthodoxy to be incompatible.
 
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jckstraw72

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also, Macarius, please feel free to post some quotes from the Fathers that show a more varied interpretation of Genesis. Fr. Seraphim was, of course, aware that there are more levels to the Scripture than the literal-historical, but he did not find that spiritual meanings are mutually exclusive to the literal meaning. My own research has shown the same.
 
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Macarius

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if evolution is true then death is not a result of man's sin, because it necessarily predated man.

This assumes chronology in God, something that Irenaeus, Origen, Athanasius, the Cappadocians, Dionysius, and Maximus were all quite loathe to do.

In short, in wisdom (in the "principle" or "arche"; often translated as "beginning" in a way that de-facto short changes the semantic range of the greek word underlying Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1) God foreknew all things and already arranged the universe accordingly.

Otherwise, how can we say with Revelations that Christ was the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world? Since that would be before human sin (chronologically speaking)

Was the Cross really just a "plan B"? A giant "whoopsie" on God's part? Of course not. God knew we would sin because God knows all things. Foreknowing that sin it is hardly a leap to say that death could exist within the created order as a result of human sin even "before" (to our time-limited perspective) Adam and Eve existed.

St. Athanasius in On the Incarnation even asserts the principle on an historical level, that animals are created to die and that humans only were meant for immortality if they maintained contemplation of God. The "death" which is strictly chronologically AFTER human sin is the 'second death' of human spiritual separation from God, which could not be a part of human existence prior to humans existing (in time).

The Fathers, obviously, never connect this to a theory like evolution, but it isn't hard to imagine how they might. On the Cross, God demonstrates that He can use death to create life. In Evolution, God creates life through death. Evolution becomes a 'typology' of the Cross, necessitated in the created order because of human sin, but foreknown by God long "before" that sin occurred and, thus, incorporated by God into His divine providence.

The Lamb slain since the foundation of the world.

The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Fathers following Wisdom and St. Paul, tell us clearly that God created nothing to die. St. Basil, in his Hexameron, says that He Who is Life could not have created death, for He created nothing evil. But if God used evolution, then He created and used death, and all that God created is good, so death is good.

See above for how an a-chronological perspective on God's foreknowledge (which is precisely the perspective the Father's had on God's creative work) undoes this argument.

so God contradicts Himself then by defeating death for the renewal of the entire cosmos. And to distinguish between human and animal death doesn't cut it, because the Fathers also teach that animals, and the entire cosmos, only took on corruption at man's sin. so while many people insist that they are compatible or that this issue doesn't matter, this is at least one of the burning issues that needs to be addressed coherently without sacrificing Orthodoxy.

I agree, but I think the issue is more burning for us because we have inherited the historicism of German Protestants and of modernity in general, and this makes it almost impossible for us to conceive of the full implications of God's foreknowledge.

I mean, to put it in shocking language, St. Irenaeus makes the claim that God created the world precisely because as Savior (that is, as the Crucified One) He made a world in which to be crucified and save. That's absolute blasphemy unless we understand that God already sees the eschaton and is still seeing the pre-created cosmos in His mind's eye. He's above time. To Him, human causality does not look like it does to us.

You mentioned you're writing a thesis on this (which is fantastic - I'd genuinely like to read that when you're done). I wrote a term paper on Origen's cosmology last semester that deals with this exact anti-chronological issue; it was misunderstood (I content) in Origen, but the same basic idea shows up in Irenaeus, Maximus, the Cappadocians, etc. In other words, the argument I make with respect to Origen is to bring Origen's cosmology more into line with general patristic cosmology. If you'd like, I can try to get that paper to you as it goes into a lot more argumentative detail on this.

And I agree, in full, that the issue of death and the creation of life through death is absolutely central. I just think a Cross-centered vision transforms that from a problem to a beautiful proof of the Cross: the Cross, foreknown by God, is written into the very fabric of the cosmos. Through death, life.

has anyone ever harmonized evolution with the theology of the logoi? I'm only aware of one author who tackled the problem and he concluded that the two are incompatible.

You mean Maximus and his cosmology? Well, I think its pretty clear that the Fathers were unaware of any theory like evolution, so I wouldn't expect their comsological schema to match it.

What I do see, though, are principles of cosmology that make evolution not seem incompatible. The main problem (that of death) is the one you raise, and I think it is quite answerable given a proper reading of the Fathers.

there simply are too many issues that need to be worked through that just make it ridiculosu for people to simply proclaim that evolution is compatible. It really has to be demonstrated, not proclaimed.

Sure, but most people don't bother the other way either.

I think far more problematic, at least to me, is the issue of framework / first-principles (e.g. does natural selection become an all-encompassing first principle for schematizing and understanding other aspects of life and society)? This REALLY strongly differentiates naturalistic evolution (for which that is a danger) from theistic evolution (where it is less so because of the assertion of God's providence as the guiding principle).
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think I would venture that just because God saw sin and death from before the foundation of the world, does not mean He caused it. that would include animal death and any kind of decay and corruption. while He exists outside of time, He also works within time, so if evolution is true, God is the cause of death and death is good because God only creates good things.

there also is no true restoration of all things at the end, unless after the second coming animals and plants and disease are still running rampant and just not affecting human beings. I say this because it seems that when Christ returns, if the whole unvierse is glorified, that is NOT a restoration because the universe was never glorified in that sense (and I know, before the Fall God was not incarnate, so I know there is a difference and the communion will be greater).

just me thoughts
 
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Macarius

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I think I would venture that just because God saw sin and death from before the foundation of the world, does not mean He caused it.

I 100% agree.

that would include animal death and any kind of decay and corruption. while He exists outside of time, He also works within time, so if evolution is true, God is the cause of death and death is good because God only creates good things.

I don't see how that follows from what you said at the beginning of that statement.

I mean, I can see that it is possible for God to withhold death at one point in chronological time and give it at another. But even if God chooses to allow death from the start of created chronology, the CAUSE for that allowance of death can still squarely be placed at the feet of human sin which, God foreknowing, incorporated into His providential and saving plan.

In other words, I see that your statement is not contradictory, but I don't see how my statement is unOrthodox or incompatible with Orthodoxy. In fact, I would contend that my statement is closer to the cosmological view of much of the Alexandrian tradition, including Maximus and the Cappadocians.

We use a-temporal language all the time in worship (we "remember" the "second coming" in every Anamnesis! We remember events that haven't happened yet! We ask Mary to save us by saying yes to the Annunciation - we petition things that have already been given!).

It really is hard for us to wrap our minds around a non-historicist view of theology and the world, but I am absolutely convinced that it is the perspective on time from which many of the early fathers derived their understanding of God and the cosmos. And I am equally convinced that, in this a-temporal perspective, having death historically pre-exist human beings does not imply that death is not caused by human beings. Sorry for the double-triple-negative-thing. I'm tired.

How is it that Christ is the lamb slain since the foundation of the world? How is Christ slain before human sin if death cannot in any way pre-exist the historical event of humanities first sin?

There also is no true restoration of all things at the end, unless after the second coming animals and plants and disease are still running rampant and just not affecting human beings. I say this because it seems that when Christ returns, if the whole unvierse is glorified, that is NOT a restoration because the universe was never glorified in that sense (and I know, before the Fall God was not incarnate, so I know there is a difference and the communion will be greater).

That's exactly what I would point to. But I'd de-temporalize this as well. In a certain sense, creation is an ongoing process. God is still creating in every moment. And we use the word "creation" quite ambiguously to mean several different things.

If creation is a work in progress, then God is not done creating. We are not yet created, because we do not yet conform to the image (the plan) of our creator. With a providential God, the telos - the end result of His creative act - will be like the arche - the plan or principle for that creative act.

Christ is the arche - the logos, the wisdom, the foreknowledge of God. Christ is also the telos - He is the first true manifestation of humanity as the image and likeness of God, the first one to fulfill the Creator's plan for humanity.

Christ is the first CREATED being. And that creation is manifested at the Cross, when He in His obedience fulfills the absolute subjection of all things to God - His obedience completes the act of Creation (and after this God rests in the tomb on the Sabbath). His obedience undoes Adam's disobedience (by which Adam continued to demonstrate his status as not-yet-created).

So the telos, the eschaton, is not the restoration of some prior golden age. The telos, the eschaton, is the conforming of all things to Christ in submission to God. We don't see (in history) the first REAL sign of the true creation, the true telos, the true eschaton, UNTIL the Cross. We then read BACKWARDS the reality God reveals on the Cross to see what the Garden was SUPPOSED to be, not unlike how we read the Cross backwards into all of the Old Testament to understand how it reveals and prophecies Christ.

Thus, it is not problematic that death exists in this imperfect shadow we mistakenly call creation. In the true creation, the creation revealed by Christ, there is no shadow of death because He has transformed death in His life. What we have here is the result of human sin, the result of God's foreknowledge of human sin - it is the birthpangs and beginnings of Creation - and Christ inaugurates the last days (the telos, the eschaton) precisely because He, AS the arche (as the plan and principle and logos of all creation) reveals on the Cross the true telos of all creation.

just me thoughts[/quote]
 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't see how that follows from what you said at the beginning of that statement.

I mean, I can see that it is possible for God to withhold death at one point in chronological time and give it at another. But even if God chooses to allow death from the start of created chronology, the CAUSE for that allowance of death can still squarely be placed at the feet of human sin which, God foreknowing, incorporated into His providential and saving plan.

I dunno because this sounds like God used something within time (death) before it's cause within time (man's fall). I get what you are saying about us seeing all of human history through the lens of the Cross, what I do not see is how evolution factors into that, from the beginning. and again, it is because it almost sounds like God using something man created when he rebelled, for millions of years before the actual event.
 
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Macarius

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I dunno because this sounds like God used something within time (death) before it's cause within time (man's fall). I get what you are saying about us seeing all of human history through the lens of the Cross, what I do not see is how evolution factors into that, from the beginning. and again, it is because it almost sounds like God using something man created when he rebelled, for millions of years before the actual event.

Millions of years before our perception of the event. There is no "before" with respect to God's knowledge.

And isn't it entirely in keeping with God's glory that He WOULD be able to do such a thing?

All of this is not directly related to the question of evolution. Jck rightly pointed out that the principle argument that theistic evolution contradicts a major tenant of the faith stems from the argument that death cannot historically pre-exist the historical act of humanity's first sin. I was refuting that exact statement since, implicitly, if that statement is false then one of the major arguments forwarded by those theologically opposed to theistic evolution is likewise false.

That doesn't make theistic evolution true; I'm playing defense here (not offense).
 
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ArmyMatt

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Millions of years before our perception of the event. There is no "before" with respect to God's knowledge.

And isn't it entirely in keeping with God's glory that He WOULD be able to do such a thing?

All of this is not directly related to the question of evolution. Jck rightly pointed out that the principle argument that theistic evolution contradicts a major tenant of the faith stems from the argument that death cannot historically pre-exist the historical act of humanity's first sin. I was refuting that exact statement since, implicitly, if that statement is false then one of the major arguments forwarded by those theologically opposed to theistic evolution is likewise false.

That doesn't make theistic evolution true; I'm playing defense here (not offense).

I know that from God's point of view all time is viewed as a single moment because He is outside it. within time, however, when God works there is a before and after. within time God called Abraham before He called Moses. so when you get to death, in Christianity, you have either man's sin bringing death into the world, or God doing it. if God did it, death is good.

if God did it, He made Man, an immortal king, sovereign over a dying kingdom
 
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I'll put it another way. if, God is eternal like that and can apply things like sin and death before their timely introduction into the cosmos, then why would He not apply the Cross and the second coming before then as well? why have all the holy forefathers in Sheol awaiting the Resurrection, if God can apply the power of the Resurrection to them whenever He wants (sorta like there was death before man, because man sinned and introduced death because He is outside of time) and have them always in Paradise? or even still, with their Resurrected body?
 
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