Some words on Fr. Seraphim Rose

jckstraw72

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Devin, I'm talking about the Saints, people who have seen the face of God. I really don't care what oca.org and a poll of lay people has to say when it blatantly contradicts what the Saints have said.

Sts. Hippolytus, Basil, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, and St. John of Kronstadt all wrote Hexamerons. Sts. Basila and Gregory of Nyssa also wrote on the making of man. Sts. John Chrysostom and Ephraim the Syrian have a whole series of homilies on the beginning chapters of Genesis. St. John of Damascus has several chapters dedicated to creation in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. St. Symeon the New Theologian has several homilies on the first-created man and world. Abba Dorotheos of Gaza opens his classic monastic text, Discourses and Sayings, with a treatment of the creation-fall account. Basically any Father you pick up makes countless references to the creation-fall account if he doesn't have a commentary specifically on it. Since the advent of Darwinism itself many many many Saints and elders have spoke AGAINST evolution. These are Saints from Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, etc. So its not in any way a Fundamentalist thing. the only one out of this group who is American and has ANY history in Protestantism is Fr. Seraphim. Pick up any Orthodox spiritual or dogmatic text and they're very likely to treat the creation-fall account (probably even begin with it). Sorry, its undeniable that it DOES matter. I can't and won't pretend that all those Fathers have NOT had very much to say about it. What is man and what is death are central to our faith. so again, you may not be personally interested (and i dont understand why those who aren't interested seem to post so much on the topic), but that's entirely different from declaring that, despite what all the Saints have said, it does not matter.
 
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jckstraw72

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The only thing I know about HOCNA is allegations of abuse:
HOCNA.INFO - INDEX

How did their name come up in a conversation about Fr. Seraphim Rose?

he was very concerned about their super-correct ways and he saw that they were going overboard and he tried to moderate them, although they would nto listen. the typical arguments against Fr. Seraphim that you hear are the ideas of schismatic weirdos - the arguments are basically just parroting Abp. Lazar who was a mouthpiece for the Boston Monastery which eventually became the center of HOCNA. they've kinda made a career out of being anti-Fr. Seraphim Rose.
 
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88Devin07

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Devin, I'm talking about the Saints, people who have seen the face of God. I really don't care what oca.org and a poll of lay people has to say when it blatantly contradicts what the Saints have said.

Sts. Hippolytus, Basil, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, and St. John of Kronstadt all wrote Hexamerons. Sts. Basila and Gregory of Nyssa also wrote on the making of man. Sts. John Chrysostom and Ephraim the Syrian have a whole series of homilies on the beginning chapters of Genesis. St. John of Damascus has several chapters dedicated to creation in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. St. Symeon the New Theologian has several homilies on the first-created man and world. Abba Dorotheos of Gaza opens his classic monastic text, Discourses and Sayings, with a treatment of the creation-fall account. Basically any Father you pick up makes countless references to the creation-fall account if he doesn't have a commentary specifically on it. Since the advent of Darwinism itself many many many Saints and elders have spoke AGAINST evolution. These are Saints from Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, etc. So its not in any way a Fundamentalist thing. the only one out of this group who is American and has ANY history in Protestantism is Fr. Seraphim. Pick up any Orthodox spiritual or dogmatic text and they're very likely to treat the creation-fall account (probably even begin with it). Sorry, its undeniable that it DOES matter. I can't and won't pretend that all those Fathers have NOT had very much to say about it. What is man and what is death are central to our faith. so again, you may not be personally interested (and i dont understand why those who aren't interested seem to post so much on the topic), but that's entirely different from declaring that, despite what all the Saints have said, it does not matter.

You act as though the Saints and Faters weren't products of their times and situations. In a lot of Eastern Europe, Darwinism is and was associated with atheism. That's an association that isn't necessarily hand in hand. Yet our Saints reactions are often against it because of how the atheists use it as an excuse to reject God.

I've read the account Eldsr Paisios have of his brother who tried to explain evolution to him. Yet from reading that account, his brother clearly isn't understand evolution, or at least explained it quite poorly.

The accounts of many others Saints are similar. Chances are, if I tried to explain evolution to another Christian, I would do a poor job of it. If I were an atheist and used it to try to convince the Christian that God doesn't exist, then that Christian is more likely to dismiss it because for one, I would have done a poor job doing it justice, and two because they'd immediately associate evolution with atheism.

Also, many of the ancient Saints likewise were products of their environments an of their times. Do you expect a Saint from 400 AD to know about science from the year 2013?
 
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Yoder777

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If you are looking for a perspective on evolution from an actual scientist, this is a good choice:
Beauty and unity in creation: The evolution of life

Author: Gayle E Woloschak

With insight into science and scientific approaches, Beauty and Unity in Creation brings the beauty of nature in focus, putting an Orthodox perspective on scientific exploration. As the author relates scientific facts into meaning, she cultivates a correct attitude toward scientific knowledge: we are reminded that any real truth abides in the Truth. While exploring the subject of evolution from an Orthodox perspective, this book actually locates the place of man in the universe and defines man's relationship with the rest of the living world.
Beauty and unity in creation: The evolution of life by Gayle E Woloschak | St. John's Bookstore | Eastern Orthodox Christian Books | Beeswax Candles | Church Candles | Handmade and Handcrafted Soap
 
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88Devin07

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Also, the "consensus of the Fathers" does NOT mean that if you proof text a large number of Fathers and Saints on an issue then that issue or opinion gets bumped up to the "official opinion" of the Church.

If most of our Saints said that the sky is blue because its water suspended above th earth, does tha automatically make it so? Or does that mean it automatically gets made the opinion of the Church? Certainly not!

If The Lord tarries for 2000 more years and we get 20 centuries of Saints speaking in favor of theistic evolution, would that mean evolution then becomes our Churhrs opinion? Definitely not. The issue still remains open because it is not important.

You have NO RIGHT to tell me, or anyone else that we are less orthodox because we recognize evolution. You also have no right to say that creationism is the official opinion of the Church, no matter how many Saints you can quote.
 
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88Devin07

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It's rather sad that we can't have a discussion about the saintly life of Seraphim Rose without it devolving into a debate about creationism. Again, that's at least partly his fault.

Somewhat like talking about St Augustine. Inevitably his mistakes are brought up and he's debated about.

Saints give their theological opinions, and unless they are Church doctrine, we are free to view them as we please. Some made mistakes, but they aren't perfect and are as human as we all are.

Especially in this modern age, I think we will find more Saints who write something that's wrong and that doesn't get dealt with and eventually gets brought up later, all of course, because now many things we say and write have become more permenant than centuries ago.

Look at Elder Paisios, he said many things, some holy things and some are kind of silly or ridiculous, such as his predictions of a massive war that returns Constantinople.

Yet people end up citing some of these sayings and then cite other Saints who have said similar things, and then say that is proof it's Orthodox.
 
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MariaRegina

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No, it isn't. It's a well-validated scientific theory that explains the diversity of modem biota and the mechanics of their origins and continual development.

I have studied evolution as I was a biological science major as an undergrad.

Evolution remains only a theory that does not adequately explain some real leaps. It is inadequate and not well-validated.

Note: I am not a creationist either. While I use the modern system of classifications into families, genus, and species, etc., how does one explain the platypus?
 
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Yoder777

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I have studied evolution as I was a biological science major as an undergrad.

Evolution remains only a theory that does not adequately explain some real leaps. It is inadequate and not well-validated.

Note: I am not a creationist either. While I use the modern system of classifications into families, genus, and species, etc., how does one explain the platypus?

I am posting this again but I really don't want to get into a lengthy debate about evolution and I don't want to offend anyone:

I think the antiquity of the universe is quite obvious. Just look at night sky. Not only are there stars millions of light years away but we see the light of supernovas and other astronomic events that happened millions of years ago. It's hard to believe that God would try to deceive us through the Creation.

Furthermore, I find it personally reasonable to believe in the universal common descent of all life forms on this planet. Though there are many missing links and the notion that natural mechanisms alone are responsible for the complexity and diversity of life is unprovable, I personally believe that evolution was God's method of creation. Then again, I can understand why someone might look at the same evidence and conclude that similar structures in species is due to common design, not common descent.

If you don't believe in evolution, however, please don't label anyone who does as a false Christian, heretic, or some other bullcrap. It's really offensive and shows intolerance and ignorance.

What insights can we learn from the life that Father Seraphim lived, instead of the polemics that he wrote?

The platypus, by the way, is quite likely an example of a transitional form between reptiles and mammals.
 
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jckstraw72

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Also, many of the ancient Saints likewise were products of their environments an of their times. Do you expect a Saint from 400 AD to know about science from the year 2013?

i expect Saints from all times to understand Scripture. That's what this is about. Science cannot tell us about the prelapsarian world because its a reality quite different than what scientists have at their disposal to study. Fr. John Romanides says that scientists and philosophers do not realize that they cannot go back beyond the Fall, and so they are always confusing the Fall of the world with the creation of the world. This is not a question of science, but of understanding God and interpreting His Scriptures.
 
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jckstraw72

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You have NO RIGHT to tell me, or anyone else that we are less orthodox because we recognize evolution.
ive done no such thing.


You also have no right to say that creationism is the official opinion of the Church, no matter how many Saints you can quote.
of course I have that right. we all have the right to investigate this issue and try to discern the mind of the Church on the matter. In doing so, I've found not even the slightest deviation among our Saints and liturgical texts. I have the right to say this. and you have the right to disagree. you also have the right to think that a Patristic consensus does not indicate the teachings of the Church and I have the right to tell you that I think you are wrong about that. There's no reason this dialogue cannot be accomplished maturely.
 
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jckstraw72

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i guess i don't understand why you want such a sharp break between his life and his works -- one informed the other.

but certainly one of the things we can learn from his life is to take a stand for the teachings of the Saints, and not get so terribly upset over disagreements. It was the Boston monastery and its followers that couldn't stay calm, whereas Fr. Seraphim never reduced himself to making personal attacks. his heart was for the truth and love for all men.

also, i dont mean this to be a jerk -- but I am the starter of this thread, and Bp. Daniil's talk in the first post, although hard to hear, includes him counting Fr. Seraphim's work on Genesis as one of his major contributions.
 
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88Devin07

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I have studied evolution as I was a biological science major as an undergrad.

Evolution remains only a theory that does not adequately explain some real leaps. It is inadequate and not well-validated.

Note: I am not a creationist either. While I use the modern system of classifications into families, genus, and species, etc., how does one explain the platypus?

You do realize that according to science, gravity is also a theory.

Being a scientific theory is not the same as being a hypothesis or a guess.
 
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88Devin07

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ive done no such thing.


of course I have that right. we all have the right to investigate this issue and try to discern the mind of the Church on the matter. In doing so, I've found not even the slightest deviation among our Saints and liturgical texts. I have the right to say this. and you have the right to disagree. you also have the right to think that a Patristic consensus does not indicate the teachings of the Church and I have the right to tell you that I think you are wrong about that. There's no reason this dialogue cannot be accomplished maturely.

You most certainly have. I'll spell it out for you.

You say that Creationism is the teaching of the Fathers & Saints

You say that Evolution is a teaching against the Fathers.

You say therefore, Creationism is teaching of the Orthodox Church

You say also therefore, Evolution is a teaching against the Orthodox Church.

By definition, Orthodoxy is right-belief (right-glory) and to be Orthodox means you hold to the Orthodox faith.

Therefore, if evolution is a teaching against the Orthodox faith, it must therefore be heterodox.

If Evolution is heterodox, then those who hold to evolution rather than creationism are also heterodox.

Therefore, it concludes that anyone who accepts evolution, according to your idea, are therefore Heterodox, and therefore are not Orthodox.

__________________________________

I have just illustrated that you indeed have accused us of not being Orthodox even though you have not stated it in a blatant manner.

__________________________________

I am just as Orthodox as you are. I have the right and the freedom in the Church to accept scientific explanations of God's creation in contradiction to a literal interpretation of Genesis. You don't have a right to tell me that I am not Orthodox.

If you or I wanted to say "well evolution isn't Orthodox", we would be putting hand-cuffs on people that the church doesn't have. We would be judging those people as not really being Orthodox. Not only this, but we would be falling into the very sad error that schismatic, un-Orthodox groups fall into.

Non-Orthodox groups like the "Holy Synod in Resistance", the "Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece", the "Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Romania", the "Genuine Orthodox Church of America", the "Holy Orthodox Church in North America", the "Holy Synod of Milan", the "Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church", the "Russian True Orthodox Church", the "Russian Church in Exile", the "Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (PSCA)", the "Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church", the "Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church" and the "Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church" all commit the error of committing importance to issues that aren't important. They take minor little traditions, minor little theological ideas, theological opinions and then make them into be big deals. They treat them as though they are essential. They treat them as though they are Church doctrine. They also reject any other theological opinions outside of their own narrow view, and believe that any deviations beyond what they see as "Orthodox" are heretical and heterodox. They are all un-Orthodox groups, and their mindset, and desire to bring non-essential elements up to an essential level led them all to break with the Orthodox Church and become their little isolated, self-righteous entities.

We need to be careful not to follow them. I can't call your views on creationism heterodox because they aren't. You can't call my views on evolution heterodox because they aren't. Our Church says that creation is a mystery, and it doesn't insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis. It doesn't teach that a literal interpretation of Genesis is essential to our faith. It teaches that what matters is that God created all things from nothing, and that man is fallen. Whether God did it through literal creationism or evolution does not matter. Whether Adam and Eve were literal human beings that literally ate a fruit from a literal tree, does not matter. What matters is that we are fallen, and that God became a human being to save us from our fallen state. What matters is our salvation, and an absolutely literal interpretation of Genesis has nothing to do with our salvation.
 
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jckstraw72

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many ppl are simply unaware of the great wealth that the Church has to say on this issue. Likewise, I am ignorant of what the Church says on a great many issues.

considering that what you say is the opposite of what i have read in the Saints, why should i consider you more authoritative? this remains a mystery to me.
 
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88Devin07

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many ppl are simply unaware of the great wealth that the Church has to say on this issue. Likewise, I am ignorant of what the Church says on a great many issues.

considering that what you say is the opposite of what i have read in the Saints, why should i consider you more authoritative? this remains a mystery to me.

I'm not trying to convince you not to read the Genesis account literally.

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't be telling me that even theistic evolution is completely un-Orthodox and against the teachings of the Church. The Church doesn't have a definitive teaching on creation.

I don't mind if you hold a literal view of Genesis. That's your own micro-theology, your own theological opinion about a mystery. But you also shouldn't mind if I hold a view of creation that is compatible with both Orthodoxy & science, and views Genesis as part of the larger narrative of man's salvation and that the creation accounts are largely allegorical, and allegorically true rather than scientifically literally true.
 
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many ppl are simply unaware of the great wealth that the Church has to say on this issue. Likewise, I am ignorant of what the Church says on a great many issues.

considering that what you say is the opposite of what i have read in the Saints, why should i consider you more authoritative? this remains a mystery to me.

Just taking a guess, but possibly because the church agrees with Devin, that belief in creationism or evolution is not a big, salvific issue.

http://oca.org/questions/contempmoral/evolution-orthodoxy

http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-lawrence-farley/evolution-or-creation-science
 
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