Sola Scriptura vs. Catholic Tradition

OpenDoor

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Nice to talk to you again.
:)

And Jesus also said "He who hears you [the Apostles] hears me (Lk 10:16).
you say this is referring to your bishops
Mormons say this is referring to theirs

I didn't say I dismissed it, only that the hypocracy of certain members of the Church does not invalidate her claims. What, specifically, are you refering to?
which would you like to look at?

"If Jesus having Judas with Him doesn't invalidate the Gospel, neither does a bad church official".
There were prophecies referring to Judas
it was connected to the Messianic prophecies.

As a RC how do you know when to follow a church official and when not to?

I have a hard time understanding how you can believe the RCC is the Church that Jesus founded the One and Only True Church and have officials that are well... like you said bad...

Again, Matthew 13:24-30 predicts that there will be sinners and saints in the Church until the end of time. "He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. / Let them grow together until harvest..." (29-30).
first off
Jesus disagrees with you :sorry: :sorry: :sorry:
The field is the world Matthew 13:38, not the CHURCH.
(you're probably gonna have to rethink your entire premise as to why there is bad leadership in your church :sorry: )

Id like to see it; but open any world almenac and you can see the chronological listing of the Popes all the way back to St. Peter.
I understand as a Catholic you believe this.
In the RCC a person is not declared a Pope until the RCC declares them a Pope.
Basically the people at the start of the list (which is disputed historicaly) did not know they were Popes.

Example:
Lets say 100 years from now a new country starts and they say you (judechild) was their first leader, but you never heard of this country nor did you know you were its leader when you were alive.
This is essentially what happened to Peter.

Could you maybe cite a certain docrine that you believe changed?
justification
papal infallibility
immaculate conception

up to you...

Yah, I know. But I'd like to know what you think about the Church as an institution.
local churches?
worship, fellowship, ministering to the community, etc.
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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I respect ante-Nicene, and a small percentage of post-Nicene tradition....but sola scriptura makes sense to me.
Also, Sola Scriptura is but one of FIVE solas...they all go hand in hand and cannot be seperated. :)

Gotta admit here...ante-Nicene tradition is what makes the basics of our Faith as Christians in all denoms it seems. The Ante-Nicene glue so to speak.
Doesn't it?
 
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judechild

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:)
you say this is referring to your bishops
Mormons say this is referring to theirs

I can't help that; I can only speak for what I believe.

which would you like to look at?

Any you like, sir.

There were prophecies referring to Judas
it was connected to the Messianic prophecies.

He still had free will, he didn't need to betray Jesus. Jesus didn't need anyone to turn Him in.

As a RC how do you know when to follow a church official and when not to?

Sir, don't mistake loyalty for foolishness. Individual priests, bishops, even the Pope himself, are not infallible on their own. I've opposed a bishop who was being hypocritical in light of the Church's teaching on the sactity of life; even so, though, I acknowledged his authority... but pointed out he was clearly wrong.

I have a hard time understanding how you can believe the RCC is the Church that Jesus founded the One and Only True Church and have officials that are well... like you said bad...

Like the Mormans comment, I can't help that, I can only speak for myself, and for the Church. Consider, though, that Israel was still the nation that God made the sign of the Old Convenant... even though they messed up a ton, and their three greatest kings were: a coward, a murderer, and an apostate.

first off
Jesus disagrees with you :sorry: :sorry: :sorry:
The field is the world Matthew 13:38, not the CHURCH.
(you're probably gonna have to rethink your entire premise as to why there is bad leadership in your church :sorry: )

...
Pardon me, but that last sentence is unnecessary, sir. As it is, though, I stand by my previous post. I'd like to draw your attention to: "'The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field" (Matt. 13:24). And later, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers" (v. 41). It appears to me, that Jesus is saying that the field is, yes the world (v. 38), but also the Church, the Kingdom of God (there will not be any sinners, after all, in the kingdom at the end of the age for Jesus to command be taken out of it).


I understand as a Catholic you believe this.
In the RCC a person is not declared a Pope until the RCC declares them a Pope.
Basically the people at the start of the list (which is disputed historicaly) did not know they were Popes.

You might be interested in a few quotations from the Early Church Fathers... when I get my book. The letter of St. Clement (the 4th pope) is interesting because of the authority it wields.

justification
papal infallibility
immaculate conception

Okay. What about them do you see as having changed?


local churches?
worship, fellowship, ministering to the community, etc.
so... totally unnecessary?
 
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New_Wineskin

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On my other forum we started discussing tradition. A Catholic member said Catholics view Sacred Tradition as being equal to Scripture. I fully believe this to be a lie. I am a supporter of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone). I believe Scripture to be the final source of authority. Below is part of what I posted in the other thread mixed with some new stuff.

As for the Word being the final source of authority, it does not say this specifically in the Bible. This does not mean it isn't so. We have to look at examples in the Bible.

You say that you believe that the Scriptures are the final source of authority but they do not contain that belief . So , you are using something else as a final authority to verify that SS is true .

Sola Scriptura is as much a tradition as anything the Catholics have . People defend it even though it is self-contradictory . The Lutherans have even given up on the idea that the Scriptures prove SS by calling it a "praxis" - something not needing Scriptural proof .

And , look - Sola Scriptura - you are writing in English while still using an antiquated Latin term instead of a perfectly good English term . Why ? You love tradition . Then , there is "bible" - not in the Scriptures . Yet , you are so entrenched in tradition that you use a nonscriptural and illogical word for them .
 
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OpenDoor

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I can't help that; I can only speak for what I believe.
As it stands there is no reason to be RCC over LDS (or vice versa).

he didn't need to betray Jesus. Jesus didn't need anyone to turn Him in.
Not according to the Messianic Prophesies in the Old Testament.

I'd like to draw your attention to: "'The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field" (Matt. 13:24). And later, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers" (v. 41). It appears to me, that Jesus is saying that the field is, yes the world (v. 38), but also the Church, the Kingdom of God (there will not be any sinners, after all, in the kingdom at the end of the age for Jesus to command be taken out of it).
that is why the CHURCH is the Body of Christ, the Bride
it is only made of Christians who are His
In the world there are those who are not His (this includes those who claim to be Christians and are not)

I don't understand how you can hold to your view of the field being the CHURCH when Jesus gives a different explanation.

Okay. What about them do you see as having changed?
Want to do justification?
How/when is a man declared righteous before God?

so... totally unnecessary?
that's not what I said at all...
 
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OpenDoor

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Vatican I on July 13, 1870, an argument was raised on the floor, voted on by 18 bishops supporting it, and this is what was stated-

"Well, venerable brethren, history raises its voice to assure us that Popes have erred. You may protest against it or deny it as you please, I'll prove it.

Pope Victor in 192 first approved of Montanism and then condemned it.

Marcellinus was an idolator; he entered the Temple of Vesta and offered incense to the goddess. You'll say that it was an act of weakness, but I answer a Vicar of Jesus Christ dies rather than become an apostate.

Liberius consented to the condemnation of Athanasius and made a profession of Arianism that he might be recalled from his exile and reinstated in the Holy See.

Honorius adhered to Monothelitism. Father Gratry has proved that to demonstration.

Gregory I calls anyone 'Antichrist' who takes the name Universal Bishop, and Boniface III made the patricide Emperor of Phocas confer the title upon him.

Paschal II and Eugenius III authorized dueling. Julius II and Pius IV forbid it.

Eugenius VI approved the Council of Basle and the reinstitution of the chalice of the Church of Bohemia. Pius II revoked the concession.

Hadrian II declared civil marriages to be valid, Pius VII condemned them.

Sixtus V published an edition of the Bible and by a Bull recommended it to be read. Pius VII condemned the reading of it.

Clement XIV abolished the order of the Jesuits, permitted by Paul III and Pius VII.

Pope Vigilius purchased the papacy from Belisarius, Lieutenant of the Emperor Justinian. Eugenius III imitated Vigilius.

Bernard the bright star of the Reformation says, 'Can you show me in this great city of Rome anyone who would receive you as Pope that they had not received gold or silver for it?"'

You know the history of Formosus too well for me to add to it. But you will tell me these are fables, not history, fables!

Go, Monsignori, to the Vatican library and read Platina, the historian of the papacy and the annals of Baronius.

These are facts which for the honor of the Holy See we would wish to ignore.

Cardinal Baronius speaking of the papal court said, 'What did the Roman Church appear in those days? How infamous! Only all-powerful courtesans governing in Rome! It was they who gave, exchanged and took bishoprics; and horrible to relate, got their lovers, the false Popes, put on the thrones of St. Peter!"
 
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SpiritDriven

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well the Bible did not come with a list of "these books should be in here"
so you recognize that God used a men to proclaim absolute truth that is not found in the Bible after the books of the Bible were written

When Christ died on the Cross, the veil in the temple was rent in two from top to bottom.
This was to signify the end of all tradition....not an excuse to make new ones.
Tradition is about control....or trying to maintain control of people.

In the end tradition can be allocated to play group fun time....but never to be as a means of Salvation....the viel in the temple was torn in two.

Full stop.
 
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SpiritDriven

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One has to first understand why the veil in front of the inner sanctum was rent, because only preist, or levites where allowed into the inner sanctum.

The veil was torn down by God.....consequently...

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

There is only one mediator.....there is no more tradition....the Pharisees may have dutifully sewed the veil back up again, but they where destroyed in 70 AD.

At the moment Christ Died on the Cross, the veil in the Temple was torn in two by God....signifying the end of all tradition.

Full stop.
 
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polishbeast

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One has to first understand why the veil in front of the inner sanctum was rent, because only preist, or levites where allowed into the inner sanctum.

The veil was torn down by God.....consequently...

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

There is only one mediator.....there is no more tradition....the Pharisees may have dutifully sewed the veil back up again, but they where destroyed in 70 AD.

At the moment Christ Died on the Cross, the veil in the Temple was torn in two by God....signifying the end of all tradition.

Full stop.

Maybe it signifies an end of the OT priesthood? You are still putting your tradition down as the interpretation of Scripture.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Actualy the Veil in the Temple being torn in two was to signify the end of all religion and tradition.
Religion is Satans attempt to hijack the...GOOD NEWS.... of the Gospel.
Good post! :thumbsup: :pray:

Luke 23:44 Was yet hour, sixth and darkness became over whole the Land til hour of ninth.

Reve 16:10 And the fifth one pours out the bowl of him on the throne of the beast and became the Kingdom of it having been darkened and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.
 
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judechild

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As it stands there is no reason to be RCC over LDS (or vice versa).

I've given you some of my reasons. Whether you accept them or not is not in my control. I have yet to meet a Morman who claims that there community wasn't founded during Joseph Smith's time.

Not according to the Messianic Prophesies in the Old Testament.

If you would please post them; I'd appreciate it.

I don't understand how you can hold to your view of the field being the CHURCH when Jesus gives a different explanation.

Mostly because of the senses of Scripture. It's also true that Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan (Luke11:30-37) has different "levels" of meaning. On the one hand - the literal sense - it's telling you and me to be a neighbor to all of humanity. On the other hand - the spiritual, and analogic sense - it is:
-(v.30) a man - me and you
-(v.30) robbers - original sin, and our sins
-(vs.31, 32) priest and levite - the old law
-(v.33) Samaritan traveler - Jesus

So we who were robbed, and left for as dead in our sins, were not healed or protected by the old law. Then Jesus came along, who is greater than the old law, and lifts us out of the ditch. He will come again (v.35). (And, also, not very strong, but Jesus didn't say the field was the whole world).

Again, the Matt. 13 story says that the wheat and the weeds will grow up together, and "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers". The implication I recieve is that they will be together in the Church until the end of time.

Want to do justification?
How/when is a man declared righteous before God?

Okay, well the catholic view on justification is that it is through the Grace of God alone, but that it is a process, not a one-time event. Here's the Catechism (as briefly as I can condense it):

"The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us 'the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ' and through Baptism" (CCC 1987; quoting Rom. 3:22). See also Rom. 6:3-4: "Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? / We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life."

So, justification is an action of the grace of the Holy Spirit; this is inacted in several forms:

"The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion... moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. 'Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man'" (CCC 1989; quoting Council of Trent: DS 1528).

"Justification detaches man from sin... it reconciles man with God" (CCC 1990).

"Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ" (CCC 1991).

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered Himself on the cross as a living victim... Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of His mercy" (CCC 1992). See also, 1 Peter 3:21: "This [the flood of Noah] prefigured Baptism, which saves you now."

"Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom" (CCC 1994). Also interesting: " When Catholics say that persons 'cooperate' in preparing for and accepting justification by consentingto God's justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities" (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church; 4.1, 20).

So, justification is an ongoing process that is accomplished through cooperation with Grace, which comes from God Himself. This explanation, mind you, is not yet complete without a discussion of Grace, and merit, but we can get into those later, should the time call for it.

Now that we have that on the table, what do you see as having changed?

that's not what I said at all...
I realize that, but that's a bit like what it sounded like. If you could expand on it, please do.

(I'm afraid I don't have time immediately to get to your second post; see you later!)
 
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OpenDoor

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If you would please post them; I'd appreciate it.
there are so many
I found these right away

Jesus would be betrayed by a friend.
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalms 41:9

If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship as we walked with the throng at the house of God.
Psalms 55:12-14

Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
Zechariah 11:12-13


Mostly because of the senses of Scripture. It's also true that Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan (Luke11:30-37) has different "levels" of meaning.
you seem to be missing the difference
Jesus gave us the meaning of the parable. He tells us what it means (this is key).
Yes we can get other meanings out of it (as one can with anything), but if what you get out of it is different then what God tells us it means. Then its not the meaning...


Again, the Matt. 13 story says that the wheat and the weeds will grow up together, and "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers". The implication I recieve is that they will be together in the Church until the end of time.
The field is the world. It is Christ's field. All power is given to him in heaven and in earth. His kingdom is rightfully the whole earth, but much of it is held by the enemy, who will be conquered. Christ prevails, and the kingdoms of the earth shall become the kingdom of the Lord.

Okay, well the catholic view on justification is that it is through the Grace of God alone, but that it is a process, not a one-time event.
When was Abraham justified before God?

I realize that, but that's a bit like what it sounded like. If you could expand on it, please do.
As a RC you believe the RCC is THE CHURCH
as such you view all other churches as totally unnecessary.

Unless I say the church I attend is THE CHURCH
you will view any churches I attend as totally unnecessary.

THE CHURCH is the Body of Christ, the Bride
not the RCC or any other physical church
 
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judechild

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Could you please provide the website you've gotten that list from, sir? And, for the sake of record, are you refering to Ven. Cardinal Caesar Baronius (1538-1607)?

Vatican I documents: Here's a link to the basic documents of the first Vaticn council; please see Session 4: 18 July, 1870. In particular, I'd like to draw your attention to chapter 4, sections 6 and 9:

"Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable" (section 9).

As you can see, the council is not saying that the Pope cannot be wrong in his personal beliefs, only that when he solemnly defines a docrine relating to faith and morals "Ex cathedra", he cannot - by a grace of the Holy Spirit - teach error. Below is the reason that this is extended.

"For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren" (section 6).

So that is the view of the council. There were very few voting cardinals who had doubts on the docrine itself - 20% opposed the docrine being defined because they feared it may cause trouble. The necessity was realized, however, because the question was of growing importance, and so the consideration moved forward. It was passed with only two dissenting votes; both of whom acknowledged the dogma, after it was defined.

"On Monday, 18 July, 1870, one day before the outbreak of the Franco-German War, 435 fathers of the council assembled at St. Peter's under the presidency of Pope Pius IX. The last vote was now taken; 433 fathers voted placet, and only two, Bishop Aloisio Riccio of Cajazzo, Italy, and Bishop Edward Fitzgerald of Little Rock, Arkansas, voted non placet." (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vatican Council; under The Question of Papal Infallibility, section 4).

Bishop Fitzgarld of Little Rock, who was the most opposed to the docrine, would afterword say "Holy Father, now I believe."

As for your long list, I'm sure that if I answered every one of them, you still would not believe in the dogma, so I doubt the use of my answering, but I will attempt a few, and we may look at more if you like.

The accusation against Pope Honorius is one that comes up quite a bit. But it is not accurate to say that he taught or promulgated that Christ had only one will; he did nothing. Looking back, we can say with certainty that Christ has two wills - one human and one divine - but as that was not as clear during Pope Honorius' time, it seems strange to accuse him when he did not officially act on it at all. Ronald Knox says "To the best of his human wisdom, he thought the controversy ought to be left unsettled, for the greater peace of the Church. In fact, he was an inopportunist. We, wise after the event, say that he was wrong. But nobody, I think, has ever claimed that the pope is infallible in not defining a doctrine."

The accusation against Pope Clement XIV is almost laughable. Certainly, the Pope reserves the right to instate or reinstate religious communities; that is not dogma, that's administration. In addition, Clement XIV was not a very good administrator. He was, in fact, a puppet of the ruling bodies in France; rulers that had their eyes on the lands the Jesuits owned. The suppression of the Jesuits was imprudent and political, but not dogmatic or docrinal in any sense of the terms.
 
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judechild

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Psalms 41:9
Psalms 55:12-14
Zechariah 11:12-13

Thank you. And yet Judas still had free will. God knew He would be betrayed by him, but it was by Judas' own choice. You are right in saying that the Scriptures were fulfilled, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mout of David, concerning Judas" (Acts 1:16). But Judas was not some puppet, God simply knew what would happen. Again, if Jesus would chose to have the man who would betray Him with Him, having a bad bishop does not mean the message of the Church is wrong. Judas was a member of the Church that Christ established, which is why St. Peter ordered a sucessor to his office had to be produced: "For it is written in the Book of Psalms... 'May another take his office.' / Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us..." (Acts 1:20-21).

Jesus gave us the meaning of the parable. He tells us what it means (this is key).
Yes we can get other meanings out of it (as one can with anything), but if what you get out of it is different then what God tells us it means. Then its not the meaning...

What I get is not different from what God says it is. Jesus says at the beginning that "The kingdom of heaven is like...".

The field is the world. It is Christ's field. All power is given to him in heaven and in earth. His kingdom is rightfully the whole earth, but much of it is held by the enemy, who will be conquered. Christ prevails, and the kingdoms of the earth shall become the kingdom of the Lord.

This is beautifully poetic! However, I recall somewhere that the "prince of this world" is the evil-one, not Christ. On the other hand, the Church is the New Israel; 12 tribes - 12 Apostles; see also a cross-comparison of Isaiah 22:22 and Matthew 16:19. The Kingdom of Heaven, now obscure and imperfect, but will be made perfect at the end of time. As you've said before, she is the "bride of Christ".

Oh dear, I see we're not getting anywhere. To recap, though, I don't see how hypocracy by some members of the Church should mean that the Church cannot be the Church Christ founded; in light of Israel's hypocracy, and the hypocracy of her kings. In addition, Jesus Himself predicted the wheat would grow among the tares. And as for the "fruits" arguement; there have been many good fruits. Some examples would be: the developement of hospitals, the preservation of knowledge during the Middle Ages, the compilation of the Bible, the college system, the defence of human dignity, scientific advances, much of modern music theory, and charitable organizations.

When was Abraham justified before God?

Maybe you could tell me, please.
I believe, however, that the question we were discussing was how the Catholic Church has changed her position, not whether her docrine is true or not; please explain what you believe changed.

THE CHURCH is the Body of Christ, the Bride
not the RCC or any other physical church

Yes sir, I know you say that the Church is the Bride, and the Body of Christ; so do I. But I'm talking about the local assemblies. Is their only function, in your view, to provide fellowship?
 
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OpenDoor

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Thank you. And yet Judas still had free will...
never said he didn't

What I get is not different from what God says it is. Jesus says at the beginning that "The kingdom of heaven is like...".
so you believe the church is the kingdom of heaven?

Oh dear, I see we're not getting anywhere. To recap, though, I don't see how hypocracy by some members of the Church should mean that the Church cannot be the Church Christ founded...
simply put God is Holy, His chuch will be Holy
if there is hypocrisy (like you said) in His church (the Body of Christ) then there would be hypocrisy in God.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer

Maybe you could tell me, please.
when he believed God

I believe, however, that the question we were discussing was how the Catholic Church has changed her position, not whether her docrine is true or not; please explain what you believe changed.
since we will keep it in the frame of the RCC.
Lets look at Penance

Penance as defined by the Council of Trent consists of three parts:
contritio
confessio

satisfactio

We know from church history it was not always this way. So since it was not always this way in church history, why should anyone believe this is the only way to do it?

Yes sir, I know you say that the Church is the Bride, and the Body of Christ; so do I. But I'm talking about the local assemblies. Is their only function, in your view, to provide fellowship?
I already said
worship, fellowship, ministering to the community, etc...
 
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judechild

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never said he didn't

If that is the case, then I say again that if the hypocracy of Judas - which he freely chose, in spite of his office - does not invalidate the message of Christ, neither does the bad example of some church officials invalidate the message of the Church. I believe that institutions and such should be judeged by those who are faithful to their professions, not by those who break their vows. We would not say, for example, that the institution of marriage should be dissolved because the majority of abusers are married.


so you believe the church is the kingdom of heaven?

I do sir. And not just me. Read the words of St. Augustine:

"While the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the time between His first and second coming.... and it is from the Church that the reapers shall gather the tares that He allowed to grow alongside the wheat until the harvest, as He explains: 'The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels, and they will gather out of Hi kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers' (Mt 13:39-41). Can He mean that they are gathered out of the future kingdom in which there are no offenses? Of course not. Then they must be gathered out of His present kingdom, the Church.

We must understand, on the one hand, the kingdom of heaven in which those who break His teaching coexist with those who do His teaching... where both classes exist, it is the Church as it now is. But where only the one shall exist, it is the Church as it is destined to be, when no wicked person shall remain in her.

So the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of heaven..." (St. Augustine of Hippo, City of God; 20:9).

simply put God is Holy, His chuch will be Holy
if there is hypocrisy (like you said) in His church (the Body of Christ) then there would be hypocrisy in God.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer

I don't know either; you've made perfectly clear what you believe. However, I again would like to bring up that we do not say that there is hypocrisy in God, because of the bad example of Saul, David, Solomon, and the entire nation of Israel. Israel - through Moses - was even told "You shall be to me a kingdom of priests, a holy nation" (Ex. 19:6). It probably didn't seem that way when Saul was consulting the medium of Endor (1 Sam. 28:8-12), but Israel was still from God.


when he believed God

Of course. But we've skipped subjects. The justification I was refering to was our final destiny. Abraham still had to wait for Jesus to come, in order to enter heaven; but that's a discussion for another thread.


Penance as defined by the Council of Trent consists of three parts:
contritio
confessio
satisfactio

We know from church history it was not always this way. So since it was not always this way in church history, why should anyone believe this is the only way to do it?

I think you may be a bit confused as to the difference between docrine and discipline. It's true that the way the Sacrament of Penance is celebrated has changed (for instance, at one time you gave your confession to the whole assembly, and then the priest gave you absolution). The Sacrament itself, however, has not changed in its docrine.

You do not have to go all the way back to Trent, the same aspects are still in force today:

Contrition (contritio)-
"Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is 'sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again (CCC 1451, quoting Council of Trent, DS 1673).

I think you would probably agree with this statement. Before a person can grow closer to God, and turn toward Him, that person has to be sorry for his or her sins, and have the purpose not to sin against God any longer.

Confession (confesio)-
"The confession (or disclosure) of sins, even from a simply human point of view, frees us and facilitates our reconciliation with others... confession to a prist is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance" (CCC 1455, 1456).

Satisfaction (satisfactio)-

"Many sins wrong our neighbor... but sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must 'make satisfaction for' or 'expiate' his sins. This satisfaction is also called 'penance'.

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of 'him who strengthens' us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ... in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth 'fruits that befit repentance'" (CCC 1459-1460).

Now sir, what do you see as having changed in the Sacrament over the course of church history? If you would like more information on the development of the Sacrament of Penance, I'd recommend a couple of podcasts (available on itunes) by Fr. Seraphim Bushoner: Catholic Under the Hood, episodes 201 and 202 (two parts of the same subject).
 
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Pythons

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For the Sola folks:

Every time you see 'The Scriptures' in the New Testament, it refers to the Old Testament. Such as;

Matt 21 said:
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures

Mark 14 said:
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled

Luke 24 said:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself

John 5 said:
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 18 said:
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

This is what 'The Scriptures' were used for, to demonstrate that Jesus WAS Christ. Once a person accepted Jesus was Christ the New Testament Christian would have confirmed, through the Old Covenant Scriptures, God spoke via His Religious Authority.

As in the day of Moses a Christian accepted the Authority of the Apostles.

Deut 5 said:
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!


Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.

The power of Authority was taken away from the Jewish Religious Authority at the Resurrection of Christ and given to the Apostolic Church which BOLDLY claims Authority from God to teach Truth.

Acts 1 said:
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen

The point being is that the "Teaching Authority" AKA Tradition of the Apostles which at that time were NOT considered Scripture had full Authority to Interpret the true teachings OF the Old Testament Scriptures. If Jesus is Christ and He issues "commandments" through the apostles "He" had chosen and this Church was not to fail then it's as Acts so plainly states; The Apostolic Church speaks on behalf of God (if one believes the Book of Acts to be a part of the Scriptures).
 
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