Sodom and Gomorrah

Ken Behrens

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I'm wondering about the "outcry" that God heard from Sodom and Gomorrah. What does that refer to?
The two Hebrew words that are used, refer first to the cry as it is being made, and the second to the cry as it is being heard. The reference is to the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah's sin is hurting people, and they are crying to God for help.

The Hebrew legend I have learned has nothing to with sexual sin, although that is what most Christians teach. The sin is specified to be organized thievery, on a city wide conspiracy basis. Visitors to the city were always robbed blind, and the robbers were protected by the courts.
 
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BobRyan

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I try to fellowship as much as I am able with followers of Jesus Christ regardless of their particular understandings ( revelations ) Protestants , 7th day , etc. I am not even sure where I fit in ...I do believe that Christ is the Word of God that proceeded out of God's mouth and I live by and through Him . Whereas prior to Christ I had no objections to adultery or basically any sin since I was a product of public schools and society. I chased wealth and success because that is what I was taught. Now God has written His Laws on my heart so obviously I desire to observe the 10 commandments

There is a thread on the Sabbath and the LAW section of the board dealing with TEN Commandments "KEEP them or break them" is the title.
click this - Feb 1, 2014 #1

You might enjoy that.

D.L. Moody is quoted there - in apparent agreement with your statement that you think God's Ten Commandments are a good thing not a bad thing.

No wonder Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

and in Eph 6:2 Paul commands the NT saints to obey them - telling them that the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit-of-TEN.

And in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still.

So then it brings up the question - how does the Bible say we are supposed to keep the Sabbath Commandment? Can we simply "make stuff up" -- and then count that?

Notice what Mark 7:6-13 says - it is Christ's teaching on the subject of church leadership leaning towards simply "making stuff up" -- He shows how He views that kind of thing in that Gospel text.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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The Hebrew legend I have learned has nothing to with sexual sin, although that is what most Christians teach. The sin is specified to be organized thievery, on a city wide conspiracy basis. Visitors to the city were always robbed blind, and the robbers were protected by the courts.

Interesting - but what does the Bible say?

Jude - 7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked

Gen 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,

Genesis 19
3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.
6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”
9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.


Now you claim the men of the city all gathered together to rob the strangers until the strangers lost their eye sight. But if that was the case - it would do not good to send out the strangers from Lot's home -- all they would need to do - is leave their watches and cell phones in Lot's house and go out empty handed. No such attempt is made - neither does Lot offer them his money in exchange. Rather the text is really about "strange flesh" it is really about what it says.

And it is incredibly obvious to everyone that reads the texts.
 
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Achilles6129

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The two Hebrew words that are used, refer first to the cry as it is being made, and the second to the cry as it is being heard. The reference is to the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah's sin is hurting people, and they are crying to God for help.

Here's the interesting thing though: if the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was as grave as God says it was, then how grave has the outcry been throughout human history? And why hasn't God intervened throughout human history? Is the answer in his discussion with Abram, "I'll spare the entire place for 50 righteous," etc.?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And why hasn't God intervened throughout human history?
HE has.
Is the answer in his discussion with Abram, "I'll spare the entire place for 50 righteous," etc.?
No, HE has no intention of sparing the world.
then how grave has the outcry been throughout human history?
Very grave.
The stench of mankind's sin and wickednesses
are beyond belief, beyond anyone's wildest most extravagant nightmares.
 
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Achilles6129

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HE has.
No, HE has no intention of sparing the world.
Very grave.
The stench of mankind's sin and wickednesses
are beyond belief, beyond anyone's wildest most extravagant nightmares.

I meant why hasn't he intervened in the fashion he did with Sodom/Gomorrah throughout history? I speculated that the reason might be his answer to Abram: "I will spare the entire place for 50 righteous," etc.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I meant why hasn't he intervened in the fashion he did with Sodom/Gomorrah throughout history?
HE has.
Throughout history,
did EVERYONE get slaughtered and destroyed,
or
did a FEW get spared ? (like LOT and 2 with him)
 
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Achilles6129

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HE has.
Throughout history,
did EVERYONE get slaughtered and destroyed,
or
did a FEW get spared ? (like LOT and 2 with him)

He clearly has not intervened to stop evil throughout history as he did during Sodom and Gomorrah. Evil has continued.
 
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God has given examples of what will happen to sinners. At His own time, He will have justice and sin will be cleansed from this world. We're on a "leave of absence" for now---a reaction is coming when the time is right for Him. Justice deferred, does not mean, it will never come.
 
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Ken Behrens

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Interesting - but what does the Bible say?

Jude - 7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked

Gen 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,

Genesis 19
3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.
6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”
9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.


Now you claim the men of the city all gathered together to rob the strangers until the strangers lost their eye sight. But if that was the case - it would do not good to send out the strangers from Lot's home -- all they would need to do - is leave their watches and cell phones in Lot's house and go out empty handed. No such attempt is made - neither does Lot offer them his money in exchange. Rather the text is really about "strange flesh" it is really about what it says.

And it is incredibly obvious to everyone that reads the texts.
No, that is not what I claim. I claim the men of the city were frightened by the strangers, and thought they were there to destroy the city (they were right), The strangers had come in response to repeated reports of evil from the city. The Jews say the evil was of theft. Lot tried to dissuade them with sex with his daughters. It was unnecessary, as the strangers had the ability to protect themselves. That is the story.

Now, let's look at your Scriptures. Gen.19:5 does not say "know carnally"; it says "know". The word is "yada" and is the general term for "to know". It could just as well mean to "know if they are here to destroy us". 2Pet. 2:7 is aselgeia (immoral is the usual translation, as it is used 10 times in the NT) anastrophe (behavior) vs. 8 is "unlawful deeds". You are reading into it. Also it says day to day, not night to night, supporting more the theory of robbery than of sexual sinfulness. If it is sexual sin that Lot is vexed at (from Peter) why is he helping encourage it by offering his daughters? Jude 7 is the only one that tells the story of the sexuality, but that verse also says that the fire is eternal. History says the fire was still burning at the time Jude was written, but it is not so today, or else the cities would have been easily rediscovered by now, by simply looking for the heat signature from satellites. The verse proves only that the men were wiling to commit sexual intercourse with the men, not that this was the dominant sin. I see no reason to discount the Jews' story of the theft being the original sin that brought the strangers in, and the homosexuality was discovered there only their arrival.
 
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Ken Behrens

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Here's the interesting thing though: if the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was as grave as God says it was, then how grave has the outcry been throughout human history? And why hasn't God intervened throughout human history? Is the answer in his discussion with Abram, "I'll spare the entire place for 50 righteous," etc.?
Quite likely. Although perhaps it is the coming of the Holy Spirit among men. We are more likely to feel "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord", and not as likely to dispatch people for such missions.
 
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ken777

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2Pet. 2:7 is aselgeia (immoral is the usual translation, as it is used 10 times in the NT) anastrophe (behavior) vs. 8 is "unlawful deeds". You are reading into it. Also it says day to day, not night to night, supporting more the theory of robbery than of sexual sinfulness. If it is sexual sin that Lot is vexed at (from Peter) why is he helping encourage it by offering his daughters? Jude 7 is the only one that tells the story of the sexuality, but that verse also says that the fire is eternal. History says the fire was still burning at the time Jude was written, but it is not so today, or else the cities would have been easily rediscovered by now, by simply looking for the heat signature from satellites. The verse proves only that the men were wiling to commit sexual intercourse with the men, not that this was the dominant sin. I see no reason to discount the Jews' story of the theft being the original sin that brought the strangers in, and the homosexuality was discovered there only their arrival.

Using "aselgeia" to mean sexual immorality is indicated by the associations of the word where it is used elsewhere.

NRSV renders the word "licentious/ness"
- Romans 13:13 "debauchery and licentiousness" (NRSV)
- 2 Corinthians 12:21 "impurity, sexual immorality, and licentiousness"
- Galatians 5:19 "fornication, impurity, licentiousness"
- 2 Peter 2:18 "licentious desires of the flesh"

The context of 2 Peter 2:6-10 helps us to get an understanding of what Peter is talking about in his reference to Sodom & Gomorrah:

6 and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by their lawless deeds that he saw and heard), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment 10 —especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust, and who despise authority. [NRSV]
 
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com7fy8

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how long God will wait before intervening to stop evil.
Timing varies, depending on God's purpose. Rescuing Lot and torching Sodom and Gomorrah removed evil. Helping Joseph included many people's lives being saved (Genesis 37-50).
 
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Ken Behrens

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Using "aselgeia" to mean sexual immorality is indicated by the associations of the word where it is used elsewhere.

NRSV renders the word "licentious/ness"
- Romans 13:13 "debauchery and licentiousness" (NRSV)
- 2 Corinthians 12:21 "impurity, sexual immorality, and licentiousness"
- Galatians 5:19 "fornication, impurity, licentiousness"
- 2 Peter 2:18 "licentious desires of the flesh"

The context of 2 Peter 2:6-10 helps us to get an understanding of what Peter is talking about in his reference to Sodom & Gomorrah:

6 and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by their lawless deeds that he saw and heard), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment 10 —especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust, and who despise authority. [NRSV]
In Mk. 7:22 it is surrounded by deceit and selfishness.
In Eph. 4:19 it is explained by greed in the next sentence and a word that can mean physical or moral
In I Pet. 4:3 it is followed by a word that means desires (the same word used to describe the whole list in the previous verse), and then drunkenness
The discussion in 2Pet. 2 shows many places that the word refers to sin generically, such as despising government in vs. 10 (government hardly ever make laws against sexual lust), and vs. 18 which says they lead people to this word by means of things they say (sexual lust is usually built by things they show people), and the generic term pollutions in vs. 20.

It still is a toss up.

i was also thinking more about Jude 7. We had been discussing what the original cry was tha brought the men/angels to the city in the first place, not why they were ultimately used as an example.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Rescuing Lot and torching Sodom and Gomorrah removed evil.
YHWH destroyed the wicked sinners in that area....
Evil remained..... evil was still present throughout the world, and if people came to the area, evil was laready there or came there with them. (except they be set apart ones of YHWH).
 
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ken777

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In Eph. 4:19 it is explained by greed in the next sentence and a word that can mean physical or moral
Ephesians 4:19 NRSV
They have lost all sensitivity and have abandoned themselves to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
The discussion in 2Pet. 2 shows many places that the word refers to sin generically, such as despising government in vs. 10 (government hardly ever make laws against sexual lust)

I think it is preferable to interpret "government" as "spiritual authority" given the context of 2 Peter 2:10-11
especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust, and who despise authority. Bold and willful, they are not afraid to slander the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not bring against them a slanderous judgment from the Lord. (NRSV)
 
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Ken Behrens

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Ephesians 4:19 NRSV
They have lost all sensitivity and have abandoned themselves to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
I just wanted to add that under the OT law, impure and unclean were kind of interchangeable. So in their culture, the word meant a lot more than just sex.
 
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