Sodom and Gomorrah

[JohnR7]

You're willing to accept a PBS special which talks about a city maybe being in the wasteland

There is no maybe involved here. It is a scientific fact that there were two citys there and that they were destroyed by fire. There actually is quite a bit of evidence that they were the citys that we read about in the Bible. There is a lot of scientific fact that science has proven to be true. Of course Science can not say that they were actually destoryed by God. Nor can science tell you that the death and destruction in Thailand was due to the sex and the sin there.

But science can tell you that they can verify that at least there were two cities and they were destroyed by fire.

 

[OdwinOddball]

Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.

Ok, so you do not question that there was a Sodom and a Gomorrah, and the Bible records the historical event of when they were destroyed by fire. What you question then is if there is a God and if God had anything to do with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Also, we have a question of the salt pillars that we read about in the Bible and what the significance is of them, sense they are still there to be found also.

No, I do not argue that Sodom and Gomorrah may have existed. These two locations however remain among those without conclusive evidence for their existence. The PBS special you mention says that it may have been such, but with no records remaining from such, we cannot know for sure yet.

Even if we found evidence that Sodom and Gomorra did exist, and that they were destroyed by fire, the far more likely explanation would have been an actual fire, either staretd by man or natural causes, or a volcanic eruption. Either of which could be mistaken as divine retribution by the primitive people of the time.

So what do you suggest then, that this is just a ploy that the religious leaders used to control the people? For example they would point to a natural disaster and then tell the people that this was a judgement from God for not listening to them the religious people?

It is a far more probale explanation that primitive, superstitous people upon seeing events or natural occurences they could not explain would claim a divine reason. This is how many religions(which you of course proclaim false relgions) started. People didn't know what caused fire, so they claimed god. What is lightning? God. Why does it rain? God. Where do babies come from? God. When we die to we live on somehow? God.

The more advanced societies have become, the more abstract their gods have had to become to stay current. Once we knew how to make fire, we no longer needed god to do it. We figured out lightning, no more thunder gods. We learned how the water cycle works, no more rain dancing. We learned human anatomy, DNA and the rest of the reproductive cycle, no more stork. Eventually perhaps we will even conquer death, or at least postpone it for extended periods, and the current gods of the afterlife will finally fall away.

The far more likely basis for Christianity is exactly this. That the god of the Abhramic religions is nothing more than the latest incarnation of even earlier gods. That these earlier gods were created by people to explain the then unexplainable.

Now to the point at hand. As I have said several times, present your evidence for the divine claims of the bible, or drop this line of argument as the pointless one that it is. The historical evidence or lack of such for places and even people in the Bible does nothing to deomstrate the veracity of the divine and miracluous claims on whcih your religion is actually based.

Or, show me where I can find Spiderman in New York.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

Even if we found evidence that Sodom and Gomorra did exist, and that they were destroyed by fire, the far more likely explanation would have been an actual fire, either staretd by man or natural causes, or a volcanic eruption. Either of which could be mistaken as divine retribution by the primitive people of the time.

Indeed. Even in our own time, tremendous natural disasters such as the Asian tsunami (far, far worse than S&G's fate) and Katrina have been attributed by many as divine retribution for one thing or another. It's easy to see how a goat-monger 4000 years ago would have done the same.

California and Oklahoma are a real places. The Great Depression and the Dust Bowl really happened. Therefore, the Grapes of Wrath is a true story.

 

[JohnR7]

That these earlier gods were created by people to explain the then unexplainable.

The difference though is that at this point God becomes a personal God. 25 years ago, when I was going through a divorce and in a lot of pain, someone told me to try God. I had tried science, I tried doctors, I tried all the self help books I could find. Nothing worked until someone suggested I "try God". It was there that I found comfort and was able to be free from the pain.

A year ago when I was in a coma my wife prayed and asked God to heal me. I had an experance of the nurse trying to talk to me but I was not able to answer her because a large part of my brain was not working. I prayed and I had the experance that God healed me and I came out of the coma. Now perhaps you can tell me why I had the experance I did and why did I come out of the coma at the exact time I had that experance. I do not remember anything for 5 days, but I remember all sorts of stuff after that. I even remember the stupid commericals on TV at night because I was up quite a bit, I did not feel like sleeping much.

 

[JohnR7]

Therefore, the Grapes of Wrath is a true story.

I use to love to read Steinbeck. I even read that stupid book about his dog charlie. How do you know for sure that the dust bowl and the great depression was not a punishment of some sort from God. How do you know that what happened in New Orleans was not a punishment from God for their sin. Although it was pretty much self inflicted, because they were below sea level and it was not a question of IF they would flood, it was only a question of when they would flood. All it took was a storm over 50 miles a hour of wind.

 

[Abongil]

Leviticus 24:2
"Command the children of Israel that they bring to you pure oil of pressed olives for the light, to make the lamps burn continually.

The Bible says to use pure oil in your lamp. Are you saying this is not "correct"? Should they use contaimated oil in their lamp? We are told that if they do not use pure oil, the lamp will not burn continually. I would think that means they will have to clean it a lot more often.

There is a lot of truth in the Bible. Does that make it all true? Maybe yes, maybe no. But your attempt to try and say there is no truth in the Bible is pure deception on your part. The Bible is filled with truth and the vast majority of people realize and recognize that.

Matthew 7:6
Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Yes, but there are parts of it which cannot be proven. You cannot say "oh well they say to use pure oil in your lamps so therefore that means God exists." That is a fallacy. And btw, there is no pure oil, it would likely either spontaneously combust in the presence of oxygen or become inert as it will have extra elements introduced to it. Even this cannot be said to be true though, perhaps one day we will find out that a more contaminated fuel is more efficient, there is not one thing you can say with 100% certainty, not even that you exist.

 

[Abongil]

There is no maybe involved here. It is a scientific fact that there were two citys there and that they were destroyed by fire. There actually is quite a bit of evidence that they were the citys that we read about in the Bible. There is a lot of scientific fact that science has proven to be true. Of course Science can not say that they were actually destoryed by God. Nor can science tell you that the death and destruction in Thailand was due to the sex and the sin there.

But science can tell you that they can verify that at least there were two cities and they were destroyed by fire. That much of the Bible is known to be true. Actually people do not even agree on what the sins were that caused God to destory them.

Science does not deal in history. Historians deal in history, and sometimes use scientific means. And of course the cities could have been destroyed by fire, so was Troy, London and most of Chicago once.

 

[OdwinOddball]

The difference though is that at this point God becomes a personal God. 25 years ago, when I was going through a divorce and in a lot of pain, someone told me to try God. I had tried science, I tried doctors, I tried all the self help books I could find. Nothing worked until someone suggested I "try God". It was there that I found comfort and was able to be free from the pain.

A year ago when I was in a coma my wife prayed and asked God to heal me. I had an experance of the nurse trying to talk to me but I was not able to answer her because a large part of my brain was not working. I prayed and I had the experance that God healed me and I came out of the coma. Now perhaps you can tell me why I had the experance I did and why did I come out of the coma at the exact time I had that experance. I do not remember anything for 5 days, but I remember all sorts of stuff after that. I even remember the stupid commericals on TV at night because I was up quite a bit, I did not feel like sleeping much.

And so we fall back to personal testimony as always in lieu of actual evidence.

Seriously not to disparage what was obviously a very rough period, but you even admit that part of your brain was not working right. And you don't see why things that happened during this period would be highly suspect?

You do know that when dreaming we can incorporate sounds and sensations from the waking world into the dream right? Time is highly subjective while dreaming, and dreams even if they seem to last for several hours only last a few seconds or minutes. So if for example you hear a phone ringing, this can get incorporated into your dream, and seem like a much longer occurence than the second or two you actually hear it.

The most probable explanation is that during your process of actually waking up, in the last few minutes is when you actually had these feelings. You incorporated your wifes voice and prayer into your experience.

In other words, your damaged brain fabricatd it to deal with a situation it couldn't cope with

And all of this is immaterial anyways. it does noting to support the miraculous claims of the Bible.

So again I ask, present the evidence for the divine and miraculous claims of the Bible that form the basis of your religion.

 

[Asimov]

It proves such places ACTUALLY existed , and that these actual places were REALLY destroyed. That would prove another ACTUAL SOMETHING regarding the Bible.

***! We found Troy so that proves that Troy ACTUALLY existed, and that the city was REALLY. That would prove another ACTUAL SOMETHING regarding the Iliad.

Praise Zeus, for he is the true God....based on the fact that Troy existed. That's quite the leap.

 

[Abongil]

Did anyone read my brothers topic about life as an atheist?

 

[JohnR7]

Even this cannot be said to be true though, perhaps one day we will find out that a more contaminated fuel is more efficient

Oh come on, get real. Perhaps the government has cleaned things up so good that people now do not even remember how filthy things were. They do not remember how much of a mess coal made in heating a house. They do not remember how black the lamp use to get from burning the oil in it. As a carpenter I have run into lots of coal dust when I tear into a old wall of a old house. City life did not use to be as clean as it now is.

 

[Abongil]

Oh come on, get real. Perhaps the government has cleaned things up so good that people now do not even remember how filthy things were. They do not remember how much of a mess coal made in heating a house. They do not remember how black the lamp use to get from burning the oil in it. As a carpenter I have run into lots of coal dust when I tear into a old wall of a old house. City life did not use to be as clean as it now is.

Ok... I really dont know what city life is, I live in a town with 300 people (and amazingly I am not the only atheist!). I am just trying to show you, not one thing can be said with 100% certainty.

 

[JohnR7]

I am just trying to show you, not one thing can be said with 100% certainty.

So are you 100% certain that there is no God? According to the theory of evolution things change. The only thing you can be sure of is change. People change. One day they may be sure there is no God and later they may change and become certain that there is a God. I went though a time when I was 17 years old that I claimed I did not believe in a God. I remember how shocked people were when I told them that. They would say "What? You do not believe in God?" The thing is as it all turned out, I must have needed God more than God needed me. He seemed perfectly content to wait for me to come around. Perhaps He knew some things about me that I did not know. Like He knew how much I needed Him to be there for me and to comfort me in my time of trouble.

 

[Abongil]

So are you 100% certain that there is no God? According to the theory of evolution things change. The only thing you can be sure of is change. People change one day they may be certain there is not God and at a later time in their life they may change and become certain that there is a God. I went though a time when I was 17 years old that I claimed I did not believe in a God. I remember how shocked people were when I told them that. They would say "What? You do not believe in God". The thing is as it all turned out, I think I needed God more than God needed me. He seemed perfectly content to wait for me to come around. Perhaps He knew some things about me that I did not know. Like He knew how much I needed Him to be there for me and to comfort me in my time of trouble.

I am 99.9% sure there is no god, and I cannot exclude the fact that he might exist, even as it is very unlikely. I have been an atheist since I was 16, that is 8 years now and I have never needed God, I find strength in myself and realize that I can do anything I put my mind to.

 

[JohnR7]

I find strength in myself and realize that I can do anything I put my mind to.

You would have to be pretty self sufficent to survive in a town of only 300 people. How do you do that, my graduating class in High School was over 1500 people. I lived in a town of 1 million people once and I was bored and could not find enough to do there.

 

[Abongil]

You would have to be pretty self sufficent to survive in a town of only 300 people. How do you do that, my graduating class in High School was over 1500 people. I lived in a town of 1 million people once and I was bored and could not find enough to do there.

It is what I am used to, its not like we dont get power and high speed internet out here though.

 

[JohnR7]

It is what I am used to, its not like we dont get power and high speed internet out here though.

Yeah, you can crank up the old tread mill and get all the power you want. Actually we live by a falls, so the city I am in generates all of it's own power.

 

[Abongil]

Yeah, you can crank up the old tread mill and get all the power you want. Actually we live by a falls, so the city I am in generates all of it's own power.

??? Ok...

we get our power from a windmill farm... what does this have to do with anything?

 

[JohnR7]

??? Ok... what does this have to do with anything?

Well, to get back on subject for the thread. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Right now there is scientific evidence that they were destroyed, but people can not accept that it was an act of God. They feel it was a "natural" event. Is this not unusual for two cities to be destoryed in the same way at the some time in this way?

 

[Lord_Marx]

Well, to get back on subject for the thread. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Right now there is scientific evidence that they were destroyed, but people can not accept that it was an act of God. They feel it was a "natural" event. Is this not unusual for two cities to be destoryed in the same way at the some time in this way?

Fire are collapse are fairly generic ways for a city to be destroyed, it's hardly unusual, also how do we know how close the two city's destructions were?