So where's the love?

Ignatius21

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I've noticed, especially in the jurisdication known as "Facebook Orthodoxy," that there's a certain hatred toward Fr. Thomas Hopko and pretty much anyone else who wrote in America in the last 100 years. "New School," "liberals," other allegations are flung around. People seem to love to hate them, but can't seem to explain why, other than "they twist the teachings of the Fathers."

Can someone explain this to me?
 

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I've noticed, especially in the jurisdication known as "Facebook Orthodoxy," that there's a certain hatred toward Fr. Thomas Hopko and pretty much anyone else who wrote in America in the last 100 years. "New School," "liberals," other allegations are flung around. People seem to love to hate them, but can't seem to explain why, other than "they twist the teachings of the Fathers."

Can someone explain this to me?
I'm glad I haven't been on those groups to see that. It's sad when people speak out in anger and hatred against those who can't defend themselves. Fr. Thomas Hopko has been a crucial person in many of our lives and has helped me significantly in my journey to Orthodoxy. We all have areas where we can improve, but that doesn't take away the good that has been done either (though I don't know what they are referring to with the 'new school' and 'twisting the fathers' accusations)
 
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Wryetui

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It's curious, it is those "liberals" or "new schoolers" that I like most than my native romanian orthodox theologians, here the views are very closed, it is kind of hatred-headed towards other churches, but Orthodoxy in America is rather comfortable, I really like the mindset and the view of those priests and scholars. I'm not saying romanian theologians are not good, like Dumitru Stăniloaie or Elder Cleopa, but often the others are very straight minded and that's not something I like.
 
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dzheremi

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The idea of Facebook being a place of serious religious discussion makes me feel unwell.

I had a Coptic monk ask to befriend me on Facebook a while ago. I politely declined (this was face-to-face, not a friend request on the actual website). I am sure he would have been nothing but a joy, but I do not want to start down that road. I am surprised that there are Orthodox people who do not have this a similar attitude. I can understand people of some level of authority in whatever church you're in using FB, since they are essentially public figures, but at the level at which most laypeople use Facebook, I don't see anything good coming from it ever.
 
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I've noticed, especially in the jurisdication known as "Facebook Orthodoxy," that there's a certain hatred toward Fr. Thomas Hopko and pretty much anyone else who wrote in America in the last 100 years. "New School," "liberals," other allegations are flung around. People seem to love to hate them, but can't seem to explain why, other than "they twist the teachings of the Fathers."

Can someone explain this to me?
All I can say is that thankfully, I have never seen this. I've been added to a BUNCH of groups on FB (folks seem to think I'll want to be there) and on pretty rare instances I even post in some of them, but I don't have time to really read them. A post here and there maybe, on a slow day.

If there is a problem with recent teachers, I'd like to know it, because I might not recognize problems if they are widely accepted.

I don't like to name names - I think maybe I won't. I've been given 3 or 4 names of folks to watch for particular inclinations or particular topics (and noticed some on my own), but by and large, pretty much all of the prominent teachers, priests, writers seem to be widely accepted among nearly everyone I know.

I did stumble upon a real "hate group" but they post names and really smear mud on other FB posters, and it is done in such an unkind spirit that just the manner is a red flag - I never listen to folks like that.

And some laypeople - well, I try to remember they may be influenced by particular teacher without having a foundation to discern from. I am grieved for such folks, but they can certainly spew some venom, yes. I have wondered where it came from. Maybe that is the connection to your question ...
 
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~Anastasia~

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you do see that, but I have also seen folks who treat him like a saint already. he did have some off theology in his Christology, but I think he was an amazing pastor.
Could you possibly be more specific, Matt?

I'm not sure I'm completely comfortable with all the aspects of Christology to recognize problems (depending on what they are) so I'd like to be aware if at all possible? I do listen to Fr. Tom often, and he has been wonderful (to me) in teaching on all kinds of topics. Could you possibly pm me, if you don't want to post here? I would very much appreciate a heads-up either way, if you could please.

Thanks!!!
 
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The idea of Facebook being a place of serious religious discussion makes me feel unwell.

I had a Coptic monk ask to befriend me on Facebook a while ago. I politely declined (this was face-to-face, not a friend request on the actual website). I am sure he would have been nothing but a joy, but I do not want to start down that road. I am surprised that there are Orthodox people who do not have this a similar attitude. I can understand people of some level of authority in whatever church you're in using FB, since they are essentially public figures, but at the level at which most laypeople use Facebook, I don't see anything good coming from it ever.
I prefer forums, for a level of "safety".

I initially started using FB as a way to collect and comment (notes to self) on things I wanted to save, watch, etc. It seems I attracted attention by doing that though, and ended up with a good many friend requests.

There is less "safety" there, but I do have some friends that I trust - I do have a number of "solid" folks from AFR, for example. But then again, for lesser-known people, anyone can claim to be anything. Just because they claim to be a priest, doesn't mean they are. I have a few I have my suspicions about.

Just like in the parish though, you learn people over time. Some are always solid, and you eventually build a level of trust. Some are generally good. And a few - I know full well to disregard (and in a case or two have simply unfriended).

Overall it has been very good for me. I have a small number of very trustworthy friends who I can count on to give solid answers, and eventually was helped into a connection with a spiritual father who could answer certain issues for me (with the blessing of my priest of course - he actually wanted me to find someone else for these things). (My SF is not on FB though, but I was put in touch with him through a FB friend.)

Though more than once, because I've had a question about something there, I have brought it here for opinions. I have those I trust here as well, and when my inner voice agrees with what to accept, and what not to - along with the people I trust most (and my priest if it comes to that), then I feel better about it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Could you possibly be more specific, Matt?

I'm not sure I'm completely comfortable with all the aspects of Christology to recognize problems (depending on what they are) so I'd like to be aware if at all possible? I do listen to Fr. Tom often, and he has been wonderful (to me) in teaching on all kinds of topics. Could you possibly pm me, if you don't want to post here? I would very much appreciate a heads-up either way, if you could please.

Thanks!!!

his explanation of Christ on the Cross, he has actually said that when Christ cried out to God that the Father turns His back on the Son. his description was way to Lutheran. he also has some problematic stuff concerning Mary's ever virginity. that being said, Fr Tom is spot on in a LOT of what he had to say. the haters will always find something to hate.
 
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~Anastasia~

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his explanation of Christ on the Cross, he has actually said that when Christ cried out to God that the Father turns His back on the Son. his description was way to Lutheran. he also has some problematic stuff concerning Mary's ever virginity. that being said, Fr Tom is spot on in a LOT of what he had to say. the haters will always find something to hate.
Thank you, Matt. I mean no disrespect to Fr. Tom (may his memory be eternal!) in asking. I know we don't consider anyone - even the ECFs - to be necessarily infallible. I love so many of his sermons I have listened to, and have a very great respect for him. I have no intent to criticize, and I would rather be charitable in terms of anyone's mistakes or shortcomings. I really appreciate the information, and just want to be aware, since those are things I might not discern properly. Thank you!
 
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~Anastasia~

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no worries, and don't get me wrong, I knew Fr Tom well (his grandson and I went to college together) and loved him as a priest.
What a blessing for you. :)

He seems like such a wonderful man. Having never met him, still, he seems so kind and humble from the way he spoke in his recorded sermons.
 
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Ignatius21

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his explanation of Christ on the Cross, he has actually said that when Christ cried out to God that the Father turns His back on the Son. his description was way to Lutheran. he also has some problematic stuff concerning Mary's ever virginity. that being said, Fr Tom is spot on in a LOT of what he had to say. the haters will always find something to hate.

I guess my question here would be, on what basis do you judge his comment that you've cited (about Christ on the cross for instance) is "too Lutheran," or is out of step with Orthodoxy? Since becoming Orthodox I've found an amazing (and at times alarming) variance of opinion on almost every topic--which generally I think is positive, because even small differences in the Protestant world would turn one parish into three--but when I hear people start discussing whether one view is better than another, usually what I hear are very vague references to "the Fathers taught this" and "the Fathers taught that..."

Often it seems that each has actually been reading or learning from a more modern author's interpretation of the Fathers, and those authors are at variance with each other.

When I start hearing things like "That writer was too Russian" or "That writer was too Greek," I tune out and go looking for a sandwich :)

I certainly appreciate the difference between disagreeing in love and fellowship, and just ragging on those we disagree with. What's absent among many of the groups that stick "Traditional" in their names, is any feeling of love or compassion. And they end up sounding very much like Protestant groups bickering with other Protestants, 100% sure that THEIR particular reading of the Bible and the Fathers is the right one, and anyone who disagrees is WRONG and probably heretical and possibly misled by demons.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I guess my question here would be, on what basis do you judge his comment that you've cited (about Christ on the cross for instance) is "too Lutheran," or is out of step with Orthodoxy?

well, he says it on some of his CDs, that God the Father literally turned His back on the Son. and many of my professors, to include Bishop Michael of NY, have said this is wrong thinking. that being said, Fr Tom often gave his opinions as opinions, and not as dogmas of the Church, and he had no issue being corrected.

and a lot of my professors looked to Fr Hopko as a great example of being a priest and an academic, despite errors they see in some of his teaching. the name of the game is love, and Fr Tom had that in spades.
 
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~Anastasia~

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That was kind of what I meant from my comment. I can recall a number of times he offered something as his opinion, and stated at times he could be wrong, and others might disagree with him. But he was never NEVER arrogant about it - indeed, he seemed very humble, and explained his reasoning. I called it kindness, but yes, I think he must be a very loving man. I understand your comment about emulating him as a priest. When I think of what I appreciate most in Fr. M (our priest) - I don't know, he might have been wrong or I know he was at least unsure about a thing or two I might have asked, but that really means nothing next to the way he relates to us in confession, parish life, and so on. It's about a million times more important to me that he is kind, loving, and protective of us, rather than knowing the answer to every single question (and he does know almost all of them).

I don't think anyone meant any disrespect anywhere, and I hope my questions didn't stir that up. Forgive me if so. I appreciate all the conversation and information here, and I very much respect Fr. Thomas Hopko and would not have anything at all negative to say about him.
 
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Isaac32

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I think one of the issues is that we in the west have too much time and comfort that allows us to bicker about silly things and make silly claims. While much of what the Father's have to say is pretty straight forward, there is enough nuance and enough disagreement among them for both the so called liberals and the so called conservatives to find grounds for their views. After all, ours is the church of both St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Augustine.
 
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