Simple facts about evolution and debate.

[philadiddle]

Every now and then it's good to refresh ppls memory about what we're talking about. There are more things i'll add to this as i think of more and as ppl suggest things.

Evolution

Many well educated Christian theologens embrace evolution as truth.

Evolution is not a philosophy, it's not anti-God, it's not religious. It is science, and only deals with the natural world just like meteorology, physics, and motorcycle repair.

Evolution is about change, it's not about getting better. Things change, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

Debate

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Proving someone else's view wrong is not evidence that you are right.

Many alleged assumptions made by scientists are actually conclusions based on evidence. Most ppl are too lazy to try to understand these conclusions.

There's no such thing as an evolutionary geologist. They are two separate fields of science.

There is no conspiracy in the scientific community to damage the reputation of the bible. (YECs do a good enough job of that, sorry, had to get 1 shot in there)

 

[Graham4C]

just a few points:

many aspects of Evolution are opposite of biblical teachings. An example being that, according to the bible, we are made in God's image. Evolution teaches that we came from dead material / worthless matter. The two ideas are not compatible unless you accept the dangers of continuous creation / state theory.


There is NO solid evidence for Evolution and much for a young-earth biblical veiw.

Evolution has to be about getting better. A human with over 3 trillion cells is far more complex than a single-celled amobae.

Just because many well educated people - even Christians accept it, it is not neccesarily correct. Look back in history at how many times well educated - even some of the most brilliant people of the day - have been wrong

 

[rmwilliamsll]

many aspects of Evolution are opposite of biblical teachings. An example being that, according to the bible, we are made in God's image. Evolution teaches that we came from dead material / worthless matter.


You are falling prey to the nothing-butism of both YECism and materialists. Evolution and science never says that man is worthless, that is a value judgement and is in the domain of ethics not science. Evolution says that man is an animal but this is not the same thing as the philosophic statement that man is nothing but an animal.

You are confusing the science of evolution with the metaphysics that people draw out of their science, but that is not science but metaphysics. Science doesn't say that man is not in the image of God, it says it can not investigate whether or not man is made in the image of God, these are very different things.

There is NO solid evidence for Evolution and much for a young-earth biblical veiw.

as always with statements like this, present 1 solid piece of evidence for a YECist scientific model of creation, and we can talk about specifics, as is such statements are nonsense.

Evolution has to be about getting better.

again you moralize and introduce ethics into evolution where it has no place. Evolution is about change, not good not bad not ethical at all. evolution is not about getting better or about getting worse, it is about organism populations changing to fit the changes in their environment. no ethics, no morality, no good, no bad, just observations and theories to tie them together.

 

[Assyrian]

Hi Graham welcome to the forum

just a few points:

many aspects of Evolution are opposite of biblical teachings. An example being that, according to the bible, we are made in God's image. Evolution teaches that we came from dead material / worthless matter. The two ideas are not compatible unless you accept the dangers of continuous creation / state theory.

Doesn't the bible say we are made out of dust?

 

[philadiddle]

many aspects of Evolution are opposite of biblical teachings. An example being that, according to the bible, we are made in God's image. Evolution teaches that we came from dead material / worthless matter. The two ideas are not compatible unless you accept the dangers of continuous creation / state theory.

According to the Bible God made us from the dust of the ground. That is dead, worthless material. God made us in His image, evolution was the mechanism of creation.

There is NO solid evidence for Evolution and much for a young-earth biblical veiw.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Evolution has to be about getting better. A human with over 3 trillion cells is far more complex than a single-celled amobae.

are we talking about complexity or getting better? please define.

Just because many well educated people - even Christians accept it, it is not neccesarily correct. Look back in history at how many times well educated - even some of the most brilliant people of the day - have been wrong

ok, but based on all the evidence we have at this time they appear to be correct.

 

[gluadys]

I wonder if you read the OP.

Consider this:

Evolution is not a philosophy, it's not anti-God, it's not religious

many aspects of Evolution are opposite of biblical teachings.

and this:

Evolution is about change, it's not about getting better.

Evolution has to be about getting better.

And finally this:

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Instead of simply posting a direct disagreement with the OP, perhaps you should seek to understand it first, and then, if you still disagree, explain why you disagree.

A couple of other points:

Evolution teaches that we came from dead material / worthless matter.

I smell the scent of anti-biblical neo-Platonic dualism here. Since when is matter worthless? God made a material universe and called it "very good". God even made our bodies out of the matter he called "good". Denigrating matter as worthless insults God's very good creation.

And, no, evolution does not teach that we came from dead material but from living parents.

Look back in history at how many times well educated - even some of the most brilliant people of the day - have been wrong

And when you look back in history, you will see they have been corrected by evidence. Produce the evidence that evolution is not correct, and well educated people will be convinced of their errors. Just as they have been in the past.

 

[XTE]

just a few points:


There is NO solid evidence for Evolution and much for a young-earth biblical veiw.

You know....it's amazing that anyone can still say this.

I'm sorry Grahum4C but it really is the only thought going through my head when I read something like that. I don't know how anyone comes to such a strong conclusion as to think there is "NO evidence for Evolution" AND! MUCH for a young-earth biblical view.

I wish Young-Earth evidence existed! I'd be all over it! Eatting it up, saving people right and left and up and down and sideways with the undeniable truth that is: THE EARTH IS 6500 years old. But guess what? It's not there AT ALL!

Search outside yourself a little bit.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I fail to see the "facts" about evolution, not to mention anyway you supported it theologically.

And there is intellectuals on both sides of the battle, YEC are also PHD's just as good as any well educated individual.

 

[gluadys]

I fail to see the "facts" about evolution, not to mention anyway you supported it theologically.

Is that the facts fault or your fault? Are you sure you have the "facts" about evolution straight? We often see people post what they believe are facts about evolution that are actually strawman caricatures of evolution. Maybe the facts you don't see are not facts about evolution in the first place.

Oh, and evolution is not supported theologically. Like all science it is supported evidentially.

One can theologise about science, but theology is not part of science and makes no contribution to the support of scientific theories. Nor does science make any contribution to theology.

And there is intellectuals on both sides of the battle, YEC are also PHD's just as good as any well educated individual.

So? It doesn't matter how educated or intellectual one is if one ignores the evidence.

 

[random_guy]

....comparison...

That was awesome. I'm going to bet he didn't read the OP seeing how he listed every pitfall the philadiddle made sure to point out.

 

[DamonWV]

Every now and then it's good to refresh ppls memory about what we're talking about. There are more things i'll add to this as i think of more and as ppl suggest things.

Evolution

Many well educated Christian theologens embrace evolution as truth.

Evolution is not a philosophy, it's not anti-God, it's not religious. It is science, and only deals with the natural world just like meteorology, physics, and motorcycle repair.

Evolution is about change, it's not about getting better. Things change, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

Debate

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Proving someone else's view wrong is not evidence that you are right.

Many alleged assumptions made by scientists are actually conclusions based on evidence. Most ppl are too lazy to try to understand these conclusions.

There's no such thing as an evolutionary geologist. They are two separate fields of science.

There is no conspiracy in the scientific community to damage the reputation of the bible. (YECs do a good enough job of that, sorry, had to get 1 shot in there)

but would evolution be a religion in itself ? I mean were talking about mans point of view and his beliefs ?
People out their faith and belief in what man says.
People also put their faith and belief in what god says.
Both man and god have set rules, and laws.
People are never neutral in what they believe. You always , always have a personal bias, and presmuptions on anything you talk about.
So We will always have people who disagree with any topic or any point of view made

 

[ReformedChapin]

Is that the facts fault or your fault? Are you sure you have the "facts" about evolution straight? We often see people post what they believe are facts about evolution that are actually strawman caricatures of evolution. Maybe the facts you don't see are not facts about evolution in the first place.

Oh, and evolution is not supported theologically. Like all science it is supported evidentially.

One can theologise about science, but theology is not part of science and makes no contribution to the support of scientific theories. Nor does science make any contribution to theology.



So? It doesn't matter how educated or intellectual one is if one ignores the evidence.

uh...huh?

What evidence is exactly being ignored?

 

[random_guy]

but would evolution be a religion in itself ? I mean were talking about mans point of view and his beliefs ?
People out their faith and belief in what man says.
People also put their faith and belief in what god says.
Both man and god have set rules, and laws.
People are never neutral in what they believe. You always , always have a personal bias, and presmuptions on anything you talk about.
So We will always have people who disagree with any topic or any point of view made

If evolution was a religion, then so would gravity, germs, and all other sciences. Evolution is defined as the change of allele frequencies over generations. How is this religious? The theory of evolution states that natural selection and mutation causes the change. How is this religious?

Finally, I wouldn't use faith to describe science. If anything, science is the opposite of faith.

 

[DamonWV]

If evolution was a religion, then so would gravity, germs, and all other sciences. Evolution is defined as the change of allele frequencies over generations. How is this religious? The theory of evolution states that natural selection and mutation causes the change. How is this religious?

Finally, I wouldn't use faith to describe science. If anything, science is the opposite of faith.

I dont know if i would say science is opposite of faith.. I know science backs up my faith. Readings from creation scientists and their points of views , and how they debate or counter what evolutionists believe. Yes i read both sides of the spectrum, for years I have. Its the same old stuff being debated , different days, different forums.
I believe what god says in the bible to be true, and thats where my bias starts and ends. Now I like to read how science backs up what god says, and thats what supplies my faith.

 

[random_guy]

I dont know if i would say science is opposite of faith.. I know science backs up my faith. Readings from creation scientists and their points of views , and how they debate or counter what evolutionists believe. Yes i read both sides of the spectrum, for years I have. Its the same old stuff being debated , different days, different forums.
I believe what god says in the bible to be true, and thats where my bias starts and ends. Now I like to read how science backs up what god says, and thats what supplies my faith.

Wait, isn't trying to prove one's faith through science isn't faith/is weak faith? Not trying to be insulting, but faith is something you don't need to try to prove. For example, I don't need proof that God exists, I have faith that He does exists. If someone is trying to prove that God exists using science (not possible), isn't this a sign that they have weak faith? I'm guessing the differences in our beliefs is how we view the word faith. I see it as believing in something without need of evidence.

 

[Mallon]

I dont know if i would say science is opposite of faith..

Of course it is! Faith is believing in what we cannot see for ourselves. Science, on the other hand, is a method of explanation rooted in what we can objectively see and observe. They are entirely different (but non-contradictory) ways of understanding the world.

I know science backs up my faith.

I am sorry to hear that. Certainly Jesus didn't feel this way when he said, "Blessed is he who believes but does not see." He encourages a belief nestled in faith, not science. Think of the dangers that arise when someone adhering to the Intelligent Design explanation one day discovers that the bacterial flagellum is, in fact, reducibly complex. If they were basing their belief in God on such an argumentum ignorantium, would they not therefore have to give up their faith in God as the Creator? After all, this is what science demands -- that we give up those explanations that fail the test.

I believe what god says in the bible to be true

Me too!

 

[gluadys]

uh...huh?

What evidence is exactly being ignored?

Oh, twin nested hierarchies, universal DNA code, transitional fossils, endogenous retroviral insertions, geographical dispersal patterns, genetic polymorphisms ranging into hundreds of alleles, correct predictions made before the fact, just for starters.

When you've done with those I can give you several others.

 

[steen]

but would evolution be a religion in itself ? I mean were talking about mans point of view and his beliefs ?

Evolution is science on par with all other science, explored through the application of the Scientific Method, and subject to new research findings just like all science. So is gravity a religion?

People out their faith and belief in what man says.
People also put their faith and belief in what god says.
Both man and god have set rules, and laws.
People are never neutral in what they believe. You always , always have a personal bias, and presmuptions on anything you talk about.
So We will always have people who disagree with any topic or any point of view made

Ah, but science is not about personal belief, it is about scientific evidence. That is why we have the Scientific Method.

 

[steen]

uh...huh?

What evidence is exactly being ignored?

Scientific Evidence.

 

[steen]

I dont know if i would say science is opposite of faith.. I know science backs up my faith. Readings from creation scientists and their points of views , and how they debate or counter what evolutionists believe.

But creationism is not science, their results are not evaluated through the Scientific Method. So that part of your argument is outright false. And then there is the nonsense about "what evolutionists believe." Evolution and science is about evidence, not belief.

Yes i read both sides of the spectrum, for years I have. Its the same old stuff being debated , different days, different forums.
I believe what god says in the bible to be true, and thats where my bias starts and ends. Now I like to read how science backs up what god says, and thats what supplies my faith.

The Evidence of Evolution is solid scientifically. I see no conflict between Evolution and my Faith as they complement each other.