Sick of the Pollyanna Christians??

[Isaiah55:6]

* however I agree this is not God punishing believers. How can God punish sins that have been forgiven. Rather this is an act of discipline. Or like the first verse says " so that his spirit may be saved".

 

[Wgw]

I think both is the right choice. We can help the needy as well as be smart and plan to save our families in case of some disaster.

Well on this point I am inclined to agree. I simply think it is unrealistic that a food crisis might last for more than six months and be survivable. So if I could afford to stockpile a year's worth of food, I would assign 50% for others.

Note that the family does constitute others; a very different standard applies to wealthy single men.

 

[ewq1938]

Well on this point I am inclined to agree. I simply think it is unrealistic that a food crisis might last for more than six months and be survivable. So if I could afford to stockpile a year's worth of food, I would assign 50% for others.

I am of the opinion to never underestimate something called a disaster. I'd rather have 10 times more than needed than starve to death after 6 months because I thought needing supplies for more than 6 months was unreasonable.

 

[Wgw]

I am of the opinion to never underestimate something called a disaster. I'd rather have 10 times more than needed than starve to death after 6 months because I thought needing supplies for more than 6 months was unreasonable.

Well, I suppose we should consider locality; in more marginal climates, a loger provision is available. However, in most places, if survival skills like hunting, agriculture et cetera wouod not be sufficient to provide food after six months, I would consider that humanity is facing an extermination event.

In terms of disaster preparedness, this is good, but preparedness against apocalyptic scenarios is unlikely to be greatly beneficial.

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

'Polyanna Christians'

I like that. It's a term that should become more popular as to differentiate who is actually preaching Christianity and who is selling it off with what people want to hear.

If nobody is offended by what one teaches, then there is probably something wrong with what is being taught. The Word is a sword, not a pillow.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

My first steps into Christianity was in first being offended by it. That's what the Word does to souls which are in need of guidance- it convicts them.

Bless God!
Nice to meet you and I couldn't agree more.
Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way. - Luke 6:26
be blessed.

 

[ewq1938]

However, in most places, if survival skills like hunting, agriculture et cetera wouod not be sufficient to provide food after six months, I would consider that humanity is facing an extermination event.

I think it accurate to say most people in the modern world have little to no survival skills to live as you describe.

 

[Wgw]

I think it accurate to say most people in the modern world have little to no survival skills to live as you describe.

I certainly don't. That said, lacking survival skills, there are other things that will probably be life-ending well before one runs out of food at that rate.

 

[ewq1938]

I certainly don't. That said, lacking survival skills, there are other things that will probably be life-ending well before one runs out of food at that rate.

Ok, so I think you understand my position. It is proper to make sure a family has enough o survive something. I live near enough to a volcano that is well overdue to erupt and it would cause a huge problem for the type of modern lives we lead here so it is foolish not to prepare for such a disaster. Hopefully by 6 months it would stabilize, perhaps not. If I had one meal left and lets say I had a child, I would ration the food to the child and not eat myself and not give strangers any of it. I don't think that is wrong.

I have given food to the needy, both homeless and to low income families.

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

Because that is totally different plus nothing states they were Christians anyways.

The word of God is clear in that they followed God, and their sickness was given to them when they turned away.

no, it was given to help him because Paul had issues with pride so it kept him humble.

This is Precisely my point!
God disciplines & punishes us so we will not entertain sin. -- Paul was being disciplined.
Pride is sin and the way God chose to keep him in line (disciplined) was to give him a sickness.

I thought this was whether God makes Christians sick to punish them?

That's what punishment is = It's discipline!
God's punishment and discipline is always for the purpose of returning the sinning Christian back to Him and to correct their disobedience.
- As I previously stipulated, that does not mean ALL sickness is from God.
- He often uses sickness as a vehicle to bring one of His kids home to glory as well. [/quote]

No, Satan did this to Job not God. God merely allowed Satan to use what he choose as long as he didn't kill him and this was not to punish Job either.

God purposefully lifted His hand of protection over Job's life and PERMITTED the sickness. God USES satan to do His will.

You do not have a clear understanding of what I've been trying to say.

God USES satan to do His will. God is in control. So when God sends a sickness on someone, it is to DISCIPLINE and PUNISH them so they will turn from their evil and return to GOD.

"And if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." - Jer 18:8

Where did the person I was having a discussion with disappear to?.. (strongInHim) ..

By the way, there is NOTHING wrong with storing up for a time of oncoming famine. Joseph was used greatly in that regard. As long as we are not hoarding and ignoring the poor and needy who are all around us. It is good to save up extra also because others will come to you when they hear you have food.

be blessed.

 

[ewq1938]

The word of God is clear in that they followed God, and their sickness was given to them when they turned away.

If it said followed Christ that would help more. Anyways, they didn't get a disease from God.

This is Precisely my point!
God disciplines & punishes us so we will not entertain sin. -- Paul was being disciplined.
Pride is sin and the way God chose to keep him in line (disciplined) was to give him a sickness.

That's different than punishing for a wrong doing.

By the way, there is NOTHING wrong with storing up for a time of oncoming famine.

Agreed.

 

[Wgw]

Ok, so I think you understand my position. It is proper to make sure a family has enough o survive something. I live near enough to a volcano that is well overdue to erupt and it would cause a huge problem for the type of modern lives we lead here so it is foolish not to prepare for such a disaster. Hopefully by 6 months it would stabilize, perhaps not. If I had one meal left and lets say I had a child, I would ration the food to the child and not eat myself and not give strangers any of it. I don't think that is wrong.

I have given food to the needy, both homeless and to low income families.

Good. I think we are rather on the same page then, happily enough. It is also very desirable to tailor emergency preparedness to specific risks like your friendly neighbourhood volcano, as opposed to preparing for remote eventualities like a nuclear war, asteroid impact or zombie apocalypse. So I am with you on this.

 

[ewq1938]

or zombie apocalypse.

Thanks, you just reminded me to buy a crossbow

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

If it said followed Christ that would help more. Anyways, they didn't get a disease from God.

Well my dear, I'm sorry but you're wrong.
Firstly, since Jesus wasn't born in the OT you're not going to see a statement about the 2 kings following Christ.
Second, scripture clearly states they followed GOD, Yahweh = the Most High God, creator of heaven and earth..
Third, we see it was GOD who struck the disease -- King Uzziah was struck with leprosy for disobeying God (2 Kings 15:5 and 2 Chron 26:19-21)

And the LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper unto the day of his death, and dwelt in a several house. And Jotham the king's son was over the house, judging the people of the land. - 2 Kings 15:5

If you can't see that loud and clear it's because you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

That's different than punishing for a wrong doing.

Merciful heavens, no it's not! LOL!
-- A good parent doesn't spank or punish for the sake of beating on their kid!
-- A good parent punishes to TEACH a LESSON. And that is exactly what God does.

Well it's been all kinds of fun,
Take care & God bless

 

[ewq1938]

Well my dear, I'm sorry but you're wrong.
Firstly, since Jesus wasn't born in the OT

Actually he was. Testament is the same as covenant and the first covenant was in force when Jesus was born and was until he died.

you're not going to see a statement about the 2 kings following Christ.

Pardon?

And the LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper unto the day of his death, and dwelt in a several house. And Jotham the king's son was over the house, judging the people of the land.

- 2 Kings 15:5

Ok, but again I thought this was about Christians not before.

If you can't see that loud and clear it's because you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

I will when it's appropriate.

Well it's been all kinds of fun,
Take care & God bless

Goodnight

 

[Strong in Him]

You are twisting things around my friend.
[/QUOTE]

I don't want this to become an issue, but twisting implies deliberate intent.
I may have misunderstood, misquoted or over reacted to your words, I have never thought, "I know what this person is saying but I'll change or twist their words to make them say something else."

At no time have I claimed He doesn't ADDITIONALLY do a new thing -- However, that 'new thing' does NOT negate what He has already done,

It sometimes means that the former things he did and ways he acted are no longer needed, or appropriate.
In Moses' day, God forgave sins when priests physically slaughtered perfect animals. That was the law and what they had to do to be forgiven. Today we are, or can be, forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus; the perfect lamb of God. Sins are still forgiven through sacrifice and the shedding of blood - in Hebrews it says that if no blood is shed there cannot be forgiveness. But the blood that was shed for us was Jesus' blood, not the blood of sheep and cattle.
God has not changed. He is still holy, we are still sinners, and some kind of atonement needs to be made. But we no longer go to the temple in Jerusalem with our perfect lamb to
watch it being killed. Even Jews don't do that now. THAT is what has changed. And, yes, for us, animal sacrifices are not needed or necessary.

nor does it mean the OT can be ignored or claiming God doesn't discipline today the same as He did in OT times - Doing so is complete nonsense.

I dare say that God could discipline today the same way that he did in the OT, if the Christian in question was being particularly stubborn, not listening to him or not accepting the correction of Scripture or of other Christians. But generally speaking I don't believe that he does discipline in this way.

Your claim is that God has given Holy Spirit to convict, and that is all. Thus far you've not given any example at all of how God DOES discipline

I've said that God has given us his Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth and convicts us of our sins. I've also said that God can speak to us, and correct us, through Scripture, and quoted 2 Timothy 3:16, and Hebrews 4:12, which show that it is the the word of God which corrects us, and the sword of the Spirit which judges the thoughts and attitudes of our hearts. The Lord can also challenge, or correct, us through other Christians, through the church or through speaking to us in our times of prayer. Sometimes he uses circumstances to correct or to guide - e.g if we believe he is leading us to a particular job but are late for the interview and they don't offer it to us.

I can't give an example of how God may discipline, or correct, a Christian who is persistently disobedient because a) it will vary from person to person, b) Scripture says that every good and perfect gift is from God, (James 1:17). Sickness is not a perfect gift, so I don't believe he SENDS it. He may allow it, or delay in sending healing to test, or stretch, our faith, as in my case, with M.E. But I believe that there is only one source of illness and suffering; the evil one, who wants to disrupt or destroy our peace and our relationship with God. In the OT they believed that good and evil alike both came from God. But Jesus taught, and showed us that there is a devil, an evil one who can test, torment and even possess people. The devil is the thief who has come to kill and destroy; Jesus is the good Shepherd who has come that we might have life in all fullness, (John 10:10).

I don't believe that a born again Christian, who has received the Holy Spirit, is listening to God, praying and trying to serve him and do his will, will be punished by illness when they mess up or make a mistake. I know of no example of this; no person who has been punished in this way.
You quote Ananais and Sapphira, but a) that was not sickness and they had no chance to learn from it or repent of their sins, b)that is not the norm; Christians don't normally drop dead whenever they get something wrong, and c) how do you know that these two had received the Holy Spirit and were listening to God and walking in his light and truth? As Peter said, it was their money, they were not compelled to give it all to the disciples, they could have decided, before God, that they were going to keep some of it. If they had done that and been honest about it, it would have been fine.

Question = If all God does is 'convict' then how, in your opinion, does He punish those who do not obey?

I've no idea; it may vary from person to person.
If a Christian knows what God wants, has clearly heard his voice and chooses to disobey, if they are still open to God and willing to be shown their sin, (although they will probably know exactly what they have done wrong - like Jonah), then God will show them. The Spirit convicts so that we can confess, come to the cross and be forgiven. If a Christian deliberately ignores God's voice - quenches the Spirit, 1 Thessalonians 5:19 - and continues to do so, then they may find that the Lord has withdrawn from them, that he does not answer their prayers, that they are unable to be in fellowship with him. If someone continues to block out, or quench, the Spirit's promptings, or the voice of God, there will doubtless come a time when they are unable to hear him any more. To use a Scriptural phrase, their hearts will have become hardened. It is possible for us to harden our own hearts because Scripture warns us to be careful that we don't.

The Lord may well allow an illness, or tragedy, in our lives to get our attention or make us stop and think about what he is doing or what he wants to say to us, but I don't believe that he will deliberately SEND it as a punishment for wrongdoing.

And once again, you seem to be claiming that God does not punish His children today, be we know that is an outright lie.

He corrects, I don't believe he punishes. We may have to face the consequences of our actions, again, like Jonah did when he disobeyed. He knew he had done wrong and asked the sailors to throw him overboard; he repented when he was in the great fish, but was still in the great fish for 3 days.
Similarly, God may say to one of us "don't do that/go that way, it's not good or right for you", we disobey and do it or go there anyway, get into trouble and discover for ourselves that God was right all along; it wasn't best for us. The trouble we faced was not punishment for our disobedience, it was because God knew what was going to happen and tried to warn us. FWIW, I think this is what has happened with the sexual revolution. God's best for us is that sex is to be enjoyed after, and within, marriage. Non Christians say, "no, that's old fashioned/unfair/being a killjoy, or they simply don't believe in God and therefore don't obey his word. If they then get a sexual disease, unwanted pregnancy, abortion, AIDS or simply a bad reputation, that's not punishment; that's what CAN happen when people sleep around and have more than one partner. God says, 'no' because he can see that this might happen to a person and doesn't want that for them, but if they persist, they may have to deal with the consequences.

That last scripture says ,"So become zealous and repent" -- This means you will be punished for disobedience to God.

Punishment may not be physical - by disease or disaster - it may be God withdrawing his presence for a while, or making us aware that he is displeased with us.

Really?
Are you familiar with a little story in Acts 5:1–11 (that's the New Testament btw) where God struck 2 people dead for their sin? -- All they did was "lie" -- but they weren't even given a nice little sickness to warn them and provide time to repent, instead, God just killed them right there on the spot. Those were blood bought Christians who had given their hearts to Jesus.
What say you to that?

I've already answered that. Do you know for a fact that they had been born again, filled with the Spirit and belonged to Jesus? Acts just says, "there was a man named Ananais ....."

Or how about 1 Corinthians 5:1–5 in which we are told to hand disobedient Christians "over to satan for the killing of their flesh"? Come now, what exactly do you think satan is going to do with that CHRISTIAN who is not covered by God's hand of protection because they are living disobediently? satan isn't going to feed him gumdrops and lifesavers, he's going to batter that Christian will all sorts of maladies, both physical and spiritual until they run back to God and repent. That is the discipline of God.

The one thing Satan is NEVER going to do is to treat a Christian badly so that they will repent and turn back to God. That would mean that the devil was doing God's work; sending people back to the Saviour. Jesus defeated the devil on the cross - the devil hates God and does not want anyone to believe in him. That is why we have spiritual warfare, and why we are told to resist the devil. The devil is far more likely to pamper a Christian, be nice to them, lure them into a sense of false security and then whisper, "see, you don't need God at all; you have all this because I gave it to you, or through your own strength." Then the person may think, "yes, that's right; I don't need God", will continue to live a life of sin, and the devil will have them after they die.

........So then, in light of these truths, I pose to you your own claim: "DO YOU NOW BELIEVE JESUS DIED FOR NOTHING" ?? .....Or can you now finally see the truth God wants you to see?

I've never believed that Jesus died for nothing. I've never believed that Jesus took the punishment that should have been ours, reconciled us to God, made it possible for God to live inside us, but that God still says, "you've sinned against me, I'm giving you cancer as a punishment."

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry about the formatting of my last post. I keep editing to try and change it, but for some reason, it's not saving the changes.

 

[Tangible]

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Tim 4:3)

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you wanted to be taken seriously. My bad.