Sick of the Pollyanna Christians??

[Wgw]

Obvious not. What I am saying is food and supplies set aside for an emergency for your family should not be shared as was suggested by WGW.

Feeding the hungry should be done from non-emergency supplies. That is a completely different concept than preparing for an emergency such as a flood.

On the contrary, the example set by our Lord in the Gospels suggests that we should be as generous as possible, trusting in Him to provide. Many Christian saints became saints precisely through supreme acts of heroic valour in the service of others. If one does stockpile rations, one should certainly emarmark as much as possible for the assistance of others for the duration the rations will last.

In terms of preparedness one also must remember the question of duration; in my opinion, more than six months of food supplies is entirely wasteful, and I would favour a shorter duration if it meant a higher ratio of personal assistance possible.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Comments on someone's beliefs is not an ad hominem.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly.

In this case the belief or argument the person is using was called warped, not the person themselves.

I know what an ad hominem is, that's why I decried the usage of it. In my determination, I was referring to the further suggestion that @Strong in Him was being "dishonest and manipulative".

 

[ewq1938]

If one does stockpile rations, one should certainly emarmark as much as possible for the assistance of others for the duration the rations will last.

I disagree. One should have enough for their children and family. Any extras determined not needed can be given away as needed. As with the case with Noah, it would have been wrong of him to have given away what was needed for the time on the Ark and also keep in mine he did not know how long it would be so the maximum he could fit into the Ark would have been the best choice.

In terms of preparedness one also must remember the question of duration; in my opinion, more than six months of food supplies is entirely wasteful, and I would favour a shorter duration if it meant a higher ratio of personal assistance possible.

I have to also disagree here.

 

[ewq1938]

I know what an ad hominem is, that's why I decried the usage of it. In my determination, I was referring to the further suggestion that @Strong in Him was being "dishonest and manipulative".

Misrepresentation is accurately described as "dishonest and manipulative".

 

[Gnarwhal]

Misrepresentation is accurately described as "dishonest and manipulative".

Yet one must ask whether it was deliberate misrepresentation, given the consistently harsh and critical nature of the OP's posts not just in this thread but in previous threads. The post in which @Strong in Him was under the impression that the OP was accusing her of being "warped" was a logical inference in such a context. Strong in Him has a long history of posting with integrity on this site, I know that she would not willingly misrepresent another poster's argument to bolster her own. However, the OP has a track record of highly critical posts in which she makes veiled and backhanded comments to individuals who do not share her obscure worldview.

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you agree with what the poster said in the quote about not saving food and supplies for a future disaster but sharing it with anyone that may need it? What would have happened had Noah done what WGW suggests?

To be honest, I haven't really considered the question of saving food to see us through the apocalypse or some other disaster. If a Christian believes that this is imminent, and that's what they need to do; so be it.

I'm questioning only the view that God disciplines born again Christians by sending illness or natural disasters. I don't think he does; that would negate the cross.

 

[ewq1938]

Yet one must ask whether it was deliberate misrepresentation, given the consistently harsh and critical nature of the OP's posts not just in this thread but in previous threads. The post in which @Strong in Him was under the impression that the OP was accusing her of being "warped" was a logical inference in such a context.

As someone not previously involved in any of their interactions I can say from a neutral position that EG clearly was talking about the other person's words, not the person themselves being warped. That is very clear in the text posted.

Strong in Him has a long history of posting with integrity on this site, I know that she would not willingly misrepresent another poster's argument to bolster her own.

I'm sure it wasn't willingly but it was a misrepresentation since EG did not say, "SIH, YOU are warped."

However, the OP has a track record of highly critical posts in which she makes veiled and backhanded comments to individuals who do not share her obscure worldview.

This is the first time I have ever read of or seen either of them so my comments are purely from what I have seen in this part of this thread.

 

[ewq1938]

To be honest, I haven't really considered the question of saving food to see us through the apocalypse or some other disaster. If a Christian believes that this is imminent, and that's what they need to do; so be it.

Agreed.

I'm questioning only the view that God disciplines born again Christians by sending illness or natural disasters. I don't think he does; that would negate the cross.

I can't find it now, but there is some scripture which states God doesn't send diseases or something of that nature but that would be in general including Christians. I also cannot think of anytime God punishes Christians using a natural disaster. That is always for those who oppose Him and only at certain times when he decides to use nature this way.

 

[Wgw]

I disagree. One should have enough for their children and family. Any extras determined not needed can be given away as needed. As with the case with Noah, it would have been wrong of him to have given away what was needed for the time on the Ark and also keep in mine he did not know how long it would be so the maximum he could fit into the Ark would have been the best choice.




I have to also disagree here.

With all due respect, you're not Noah, and God has committed to not flood the Earth once more.

 

[Strong in Him]

As someone not previously involved in any of their interactions I can say from a neutral position that EG clearly was talking about the other person's words, not the person themselves being warped. That is very clear in the text posted.

Yes, that is true. I accept that and maybe I was being over sensitive. But I was not intending deceit or manipulation. Saying that my thinking/reasoning/theology is warped, does, to me, imply some degree of warpedness in my character - an un warped person would surely be incapable of making warped comments.

But maybe I'm over reacting. I don't wish to start an argument.

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

So one minute you are insisting that God does not change; the next you are conceding that the NEW covenant was a change!

You are twisting things around my friend.
I quoted scripture to show you that God is the same yesterday today and forever. At no time have I claimed He doesn't ADDITIONALLY do a new thing -- However, that 'new thing' does NOT negate what He has already done, nor does it mean the OT can be ignored or claiming God doesn't discipline today the same as He did in OT times - Doing so is complete nonsense.

My feeling was that if you believe my views and/or theology are warped then that implies that I am warped in some way - my thinking is not correct, which says to me that there is something wrong with my mind. I accept that may not have been what you meant at all.
And yet later you quoted something I said, and then said that "you Christians who believe that God is "nice" and whispers sweet nothings in your ears, are deceived." This is not what I think and not what I said.
If I misunderstood and misquoted what you said, you are right to pull me up on it. But don't then go and do the same thing yourself!

I did not do the same thing as you. You literally changed my words and then put them in a quote! I did not do that.

Your claim is that God has given Holy Spirit to convict, and that is all. Thus far you've not given any example at all of how God DOES discipline and You've only stated that all He does is 'convict' and not punish. That is not scriptural.

Question = If all God does is 'convict' then how, in your opinion, does He punish those who do not obey?
-- Do you think He just lets His kids get away with disobedience and never teaches them through discipline? - All through scripture He emphasizes obedience, and His emphasis on obedience did not stop at the cross.
He still requires obedience today, and He tells you in scripture that His discipline is painful and unpleasant.

I agreed with you that God does not change - but often the way he works, does. And when Jesus, his Son, the spotless lamb of God, was born; when God himself walked and lived on earth and Jesus died for our sins, to take "the punishment that bought us peace" (Isaiah 53:5) - everything changed. He brought in, confirmed, delivered and sealed the NEW Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah; (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Matthew 26:28.)

And once again, you seem to be claiming that God does not punish His children today, be we know that is an outright lie. Jesus died to give us SALVATION. But that does not mean you can go doing and living how you like. We know God DOES punish and discipline as per these NEW TESTAMENT scriptures, for your viewing pleasure:
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son. (Heb 12:6)
and
As many as I love, I reprove and discipline. So become zealous and repent. (Rev 3:19)
That last scripture says ,"So become zealous and repent" -- This means you will be punished for disobedience to God.

I don't believe that a person who has been born again, who trusts in Jesus for salvation, who trusts God's words that "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and cleanses us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) and who has the Holy Spirit living in them whose job it is to convict of sin, will ever hear God say, "you've messed up again; here's a headache/brain tumour/cancer to teach you a lesson", and I can't think of a Scripture which teaches that.

Really?
Are you familiar with a little story in Acts 5:1–11 (that's the New Testament btw) where God struck 2 people dead for their sin? -- All they did was "lie" -- but they weren't even given a nice little sickness to warn them and provide time to repent, instead, God just killed them right there on the spot. Those were blood bought Christians who had given their hearts to Jesus.
What say you to that?

Or how about 1 Corinthians 5:1–5 in which we are told to hand disobedient Christians "over to satan for the killing of their flesh"? Come now, what exactly do you think satan is going to do with that CHRISTIAN who is not covered by God's hand of protection because they are living disobediently? satan isn't going to feed him gumdrops and lifesavers, he's going to batter that Christian will all sorts of maladies, both physical and spiritual until they run back to God and repent. That is the discipline of God.
God does the same with entire NATIONS:
And if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it" (Jer 18:8)

Christians still get ill because we live in a fallen world.

This is true sometimes. It is not a rule.
God DOES use sickness and natural disasters to discipline His kids and He has done so all the way through scripture.

I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you (2 Cor 13)

I do agree that God can discipline us; I don't believe that he does it through illness, because that would mean that Jesus died for nothing.

Well then you must think God was horribly unfair when He struck both Ananias and Sapphira, two born again CHRISTIANS who accepted Jesus, DEAD for lying! -- He didn't even give them a chance to repent....
........So then, in light of these truths, I pose to you your own claim: "DO YOU NOW BELIEVE JESUS DIED FOR NOTHING" ?? .....Or can you now finally see the truth God wants you to see?

I have covered the important topics and shown you scriptural truth AND even used the NT to help you SEE that your beliefs are false. I pray God brings you His revelation and unblinds the eyes of your heart on the matter.

Let me add these examples for you as well..... although you will probably try to say they "don't count" because they are OT
- King Asa (it's strongly implied the disease in his feet was divine punishment: 2 Chron 16:1-13)
and
- King Uzziah who's instant leprosy came from God in 2 Chron 26:16-21

Take care and be blessed

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, that is true. I accept that and maybe I was being over sensitive. But I was not intending deceit or manipulation. Saying that my thinking/reasoning/theology is warped, does, to me, imply some degree of warpedness in my character - an un warped person would surely be incapable of making warped comments.

But maybe I'm over reacting. I don't wish to start an argument.

Admittedly the use of "warp" isn't the best choice of words but it's really not overly different than someone saying someone's words are incorrect, wrong, nonsensical or any number of things to convey that something being said is wrong in the other person's opinion. Not long ago someone told me, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever read on a forum." regarding something I posted. Not that I liked it, but it wasn't a personal attack on me, just on what I had said about a certain topic.

 

[ewq1938]

With all due respect, you're not Noah, and God has committed to not flood the Earth once more.

Thank you for letting me know that I am not Noah. However, you have entirely missed the point of why I used the example of Noah.

You are also not Noah so we have that in common.

 

[ewq1938]

Well then you must think God was horribly unfair when He struck both Ananias and Sapphira, two born again CHRISTIANS who accepted Jesus, DEAD for lying!

Yes he killed them but that isn't the same as giving them a disease. Do you have any examples where God makes one of his followers sick?

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

Yes he killed them but that isn't the same as giving them a disease. Do you have any examples where God makes one of his followers sick?

If God is literally killing Christians for lying and not giving them an opportunity to repent, why would it even be a question as to if He uses sickness to discipline His kids?

But some examples are

- In 2 Corinthians 12:7–10, many well known scholars believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical ailment. This thorn was given to him by God to keep him humble, which is in fact, discipline.

- King Asa (it's strongly implied the disease in his feet was divine punishment: 2 Chron 16:1-13) .... King Asa served the Lord, but later on when he turned away down a wrong path, the Lord sent sickness upon him.

and

- King Uzziah who's instant leprosy came from God in 2 Chron 26:16-21 .... King Uzziah sought the Lord...He “did what was right in the eyes of the Lord”

He even used sickness on JOB.... this was to just "test" him however... God permitted horrible boils to come upon him that were so awful Job wanted to die.
Job said this of the Lord, "For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal." (Job 5:18)

The moral of the story in closing is this:
1. God uses sickness and disaster to teach and discipline His children.
2. Not all sickness or disaster is discipline, but some most certainly is!
3. We cannot discount examples given in the Old Testament or claim God somehow totally changed overnight. God was JUST as loving a Father in the OT as He is today and He disciplines us because He loves us.


It is clear God uses sickness and tragedies to accomplish whatsoever He wants

 

[Wgw]

Thank you for letting me know that I am not Noah. However, you have entirely missed the point of why I used the example of Noah.

You are also not Noah so we have that in common.

Indeed. I thus advocate we adhere to Matthew 25:35 as opposed to using the Noah story to justify stockpiling food.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

'Polyanna Christians'

I like that. It's a term that should become more popular as to differentiate who is actually preaching Christianity and who is selling it off with what people want to hear.

If nobody is offended by what one teaches, then there is probably something wrong with what is being taught. The Word is a sword, not a pillow.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

My first steps into Christianity was in first being offended by it. That's what the Word does to souls which are in need of guidance- it convicts them.

 

[ewq1938]

If God is literally killing Christians for lying and not giving them an opportunity to repent, why would it even be a question as to if He uses sickness to discipline His kids?

Because that is totally different plus nothing states they were Christians anyways.

But some examples are

- In 2 Corinthians 12:7–10, many well known scholars believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical ailment. This thorn was given to him by God to keep him humble, which is in fact, discipline.

Actually no, it was given to help him because Paul had issues with pride so it kept him humble.

- King Asa (it's strongly implied the disease in his feet was divine punishment: 2 Chron 16:1-13) .... King Asa served the Lord, but later on when he turned away down a wrong path, the Lord sent sickness upon him.

I thought this was whether God makes Christians sick to punish them?




/QUOTE]He even used sickness on JOB.... this was to just "test" him however... God permitted horrible boils to come upon him that were so awful Job wanted to die. [/QUOTE]

No, Satan did this to Job not God. God merely allowed Satan to use what he choose as long as he didn't kill him and this was not to punish Job either.

Job said this of the Lord, "For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal." (Job 5:18)

Job says a lot of things that are untrue.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

A few verses to help. Sorry if they have already been mentioned. But scripture seems clear that a Christian living in a state of unrepented sin is in fact risking his/her life.

(1 Cor 5:5) "hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." (the context of this verse is a man in the church who is committing insest and won't repent)

1 Cor 3:17) "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple."

 

[ewq1938]

Indeed. I thus advocate we adhere to Matthew 25:35 as opposed to using the Noah story to justify stockpiling food.

I think both is the right choice. We can help the needy as well as be smart and plan to save our families in case of some disaster.