Shroud of Turin stirs new controversy

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Michie

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I always was told Holy Reminders were encouraged in The Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox. Read it as well. But thats a whole new subject.

You could open a thread & enlighten us on yet another subject Shannon.
 
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krstlros

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My thing is, and it is just me, that we shouldn't hold our faith on whether the Shroud is or isn't the burial cloth of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Faith should be based on more than that.

Yes, it is a great reminder. And yes, it would be wonderful to prove that Jesus did exsist to a doubting world. However, if it is proven the cloth is not Jesus Shroud, then does that mean the end of our faith?
 
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Michie

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My thing is, and it is just me, that we shouldn't hold our faith on whether the Shroud is or isn't the burial cloth of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Faith should be based on more than that.

Yes, it is a great reminder. And yes, it would be wonderful to prove that Jesus did exsist to a doubting world. However, if it is proven the cloth is not Jesus Shroud, then does that mean the end of our faith?
No.

Read what I said. Everyone I know basically feels the same concerning the shroud.

Those expecting definitive proof it belonged to Jesus will be waiting a long time. To me, thats a non issue.

As far as meditation, it shows crucifixion of a sort. I never thought it showed enough brutality as is described in Isaiah but... it does show a man crucified which sets one to ponder the sacrifice for our salvation. Plus- it has a very interesting history within the Church. :)

Faith existed before there was a broad knowledge of the shroud & it will continue after. Regardless of conclusions either way.

Its an interesting & puzzling artifact.

Signed:
Curious George
 
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krstlros

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Don't get me wrong, Michie, I am not one of thsoe looking for "definative" proof of whether the Shroud is authentic or not. I think it's a wonderful archeological artifact, no question about that.
 
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ShannonMcCatholic

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I always was told Holy Reminders were encouraged in The Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox. Read it as well. But thats a whole new subject.

You could open a thread & enlighten us on yet another subject Shannon.
There is a difference between a reminder of holiness and something used to deliberately conjur up images for prayer. But whatever....

For someone who gets on everyone else's case about sarcasm and snideness your posts don't seem overly above that in this thread. :thumbsup:
 
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Michie

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There is a difference between a reminder of holiness and something used to deliberately conjur up images for prayer. But whatever....

For someone who gets on everyone else's case about sarcasm and snideness your posts don't seem overly above that in this thread. :thumbsup:
All the sudden you're concerned about sarcasm & snideness???

Just trying to relate to you as you communicate in a lot of threads Shannon.

You seem to know everything about every subject. If you'd like to open a thread educating us all or criticizing or determining standards of criteria on whatever subject as you came in this thread doing. You are free to do so. If you dish it out you gotta learn to take it. Just telling it how I see it.
 
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Michie

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Good! I do too actually. Especially since it bothered you enough to mention it.

But lets not sully this thread any longer with our obvious irritation with each other. You can PM me with any further problems you may have.
 
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Michie

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It doesn't bother me--I just find it inconsistent given how much you've harped on it, and that inconsistency is funny to me.
Sometimes the only way to get someone's attention is to relate to them on their level. Especially when nothing else seems to work.

Okay back to la la land with this thread, which wouldn't exist anymore if I had never posted.
Ah the parting shot. Thank you Shannon for making things exciting for us.

And again, just PM if you have any further problems.

I'm sure the audience is getting bored by now.
 
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ShannonMcCatholic

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Obviously not understanding the difference between using holy images and conjuring up one's mental images.

To focus on and conjur up mental images is to be distracted by our intellect during prayer; it disallows one from truly praying from the heart. If our imagination is active it precludes us from being still and knowing that He is God.

Or so says our Eastern brethren, our other lung.
 
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AMDG

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To focus on and conjur up mental images is to be distracted by our intellect during prayer; it disallows one from truly praying from the heart. If our imagination is active it precludes us from being still and knowing that He is God.

Not a fan of the Rosary or the Way of the Cross, I see.
 
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ElviraRio

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This other lung stuff is nothing more than a bunch of politically correct bullmalarky. If we’re talking about the Orthodox that is. No disrespect to JPII, but they’re schismos. They’re not our other lung. Now if we’re talking about the Eastern Rite, I take it back, but it was the Orthodox JPII said was the other lung. Ask them how they feel about being called that.
 
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seeker777

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Some people chase their fantasies and will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of the facts.

Who needs facts when we have our wild imaginations! :thumbsup:

http://www.livescience.com/history/050318_reason_turin_shroud.html

The shroud contradicts the Gospel of John, which describes multiple cloths (including a separate "napkin" over the face), as well as "an hundred pound weight" of burial spices--not a trace of which appears on the cloth.
No examples of the shroud linen's complex herringbone twill weave date from the first century, when burial cloths tended to be of plain weave in any case.
The shroud has no known history prior to the mid-fourteenth century, when it turned up in the possession of a man who never explained how he had obtained the most holy relic in Christendom.
The earliest written record of the shroud is a bishop's report to Pope Clement VII, dated 1389, stating that it originated as part of a faith-healing scheme, with "pretended miracles" being staged to defraud credulous pilgrims.
The bishop's report also stated that a predecessor had "discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested to by the artist who had painted it" (emphasis added).
Although, as St. Augustine lamented in the fourth-century, Jesus' appearance was completely unknown, the shroud image follows the conventional artistic likeness.
The physique is unnaturally elongated (like figures in Gothic art), and there is a lack of wraparound distortions that would be expected if the cloth had enclosed an actual three-dimensional object like a human body. The hair hangs as for a standing, rather than reclining figure, and the imprint of a bloody foot is incompatible with the outstretched leg to which it belongs.
The alleged blood stains are unnaturally picture-like. Instead of matting the hair, for instance, they run in rivulets on the outside of the locks. Also dried "blood" (as on the arms) has been implausibly transferred to the cloth. The blood remains bright red, unlike genuine blood that blackens with age.
In 1973, internationally known forensic serologists subjected the "blood" to a battery of tests--for chemical properties, species, blood grouping, etc. The substance lacked the properties of blood, instead containing suspicious, reddish granules.
Subsequently, the distinguished microanalyst Walter McCrone identified the "blood" as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint and concluded that the entire image had been painted.
 
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Michie

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Not a fan of the Rosary or the Way of the Cross, I see.
Um...yeah. ;)

Read anything on these meditative prayers & it does encourage the use of the images used in The Way of the Cross. Rosary, same thing. Pick up any rosary book & you got pictures, etc. And we are encouraged to meditate on the mysteries.

The Church just exhumed Padre Pio for the faithful to see.

There a many, many examples of this as well as encouragement to prayer while using these things in prayer.

The Shroud has even been on display (regardless of authenticity or who it belonged to) so it's just a silly arguement for the sake of arguement.
 
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