Should We Agree To Disagree?

[jbearnolimits]

It would seem that your post evidences what I suspected, that we are in agreement.

as to the reference to Matt. 18...that works when there is a person in sin, but what if the church is in sin, or when we go to minister to a group of people who have not heard the word of God? When then do we shake the dirt off our feet? and yes, you are right about people not wanting to exercise Matt. 18 and it is grievous to me that they don't

I read your situation and I understand the pain of it all too well. I also know what it feels like to fight the pack of wolves to save one sheep. But they are worth it to our Father, and so too for us.

The verses here are indeed good for individual people, but also apply to groups. This pattern was shown in the events with Moses, since the people in rebellion were not just a few.

Remember that I spoke of taking the matter to the church. I said it wasn't for the purpose of deciding what was right and what the whole group should follow. It was for the purpose of drawing a line in the sand.

This is the hardest part of following this process. Because it means cutting people off. Let me explain how this last step takes place, and it can also be seen in the issue with Moses.

A public meeting is held. The charges are brought before everyone. At that time the witness speaks. Remember that the Bible is the witness. This is where you show the word of God to the people.

Now this should be the longest part of it. If the scriptures are brought into question as to their meaning then everyone must reason together. I have a lot to say on this subject here How To Know What Is Truth - False Doctrine.

Basically the scriptures will interpret themselves. When you start going down this road a lot of lies that people believe will be flushed out. You are basically cleaning house. This is a process. It is only when the people refuse to listen to the scriptures that the process ends.

Once the scriptures have been thoroughly explained (even if people refuse to acknowledge them) the line must be drawn in the sand. Choose this day whom you will serve!

Once the witness has spoken the people must choose a side. This is when we depart from one another. This is when a church splits.

There are verses that speak of this. "They went out from us that it might be manifest that they were not of us"

Again...this is the hardest part. Because we crave the unity and are desperate for them to be one with us. But if they refuse the witness of scripture then they are a poison in our midst. That poison will spread.

You said that there are those who were being saved. That is great. But are they infected with the poison? Many are defiled by it if we allow it to continue.

Here is another link I would like to give you: Why Are There So Many Christian Denominations

 

[razzelflabben]

I read your situation and I understand the pain of it all too well. I also know what it feels like to fight the pack of wolves to save one sheep. But they are worth it to our Father, and so too for us.

The verses here are indeed good for individual people, but also apply to groups. This pattern was shown in the events with Moses, since the people in rebellion were not just a few.

really? God gave Israel only 3 chances? Moses only gave the children of Israel 3 chances...you must surely be missing some important passages.

Remember that I spoke of taking the matter to the church. I said it wasn't for the purpose of deciding what was right and what the whole group should follow. It was for the purpose of drawing a line in the sand.

This is the hardest part of following this process. Because it means cutting people off. Let me explain how this last step takes place, and it can also be seen in the issue with Moses.

before you tell me what you think about this, let me assure you that there are some people in this situation mentioned that I totally think should be "cut off" and one of them happens to be our best friends for almost 30 years now. In fact, scripture tells us that God sifts His people, something we have been praying for a long time to happen.

That being said, before we go any further, let me remind you of a prayer that Daniel prayed, in which he couldn't figure out why God delayed only to find out it was because the angel sent was doing battle...sometimes we forget that God is a patient God who endures and perseverance and asks the same of us.

A public meeting is held. The charges are brought before everyone. At that time the witness speaks. Remember that the Bible is the witness. This is where you show the word of God to the people.

Now this should be the longest part of it. If the scriptures are brought into question as to their meaning then everyone must reason together. I have a lot to say on this subject here How To Know What Is Truth - False Doctrine.

reasoning together, we are good, no need for a lot of discussion on it. I'm not sure so far that you understand what I am suggesting, so we patiently move on.

Basically the scriptures will interpret themselves. When you start going down this road a lot of lies that people believe will be flushed out. You are basically cleaning house. This is a process. It is only when the people refuse to listen to the scriptures that the process ends.

right...that wasn't the point. In fact, what do you do when let's say, you take scripture and they agree, but that week there is another scripture that needs brought up. By the time there is agreement, the first has been forgotten again. Matt. 18, if held firmly would suggest you leave. I don't see that as consistent with the totality of scripture of which I am a huge believer.

Let me see, a real life example...ah, the associate pastor I told you about. When the matter went before ministerial committee, and they eventually came to an agreement that he should be fired. The entire committee agreed, yet only one person refused in the end of the matter. This process can go on forever if we try to be too legalistic about Matt 18.

Here is another example, the apostles, when looking for deacons, fasted and prayed until they were in one accord. Do you really think from that passage that all they did was meet together, agree on the outcome and go home? No, from the passage it appears that this took some time. We see the same thing in some of the passages where Paul is discussing spiritual things with the people. Often there were meetings called in which they were actually debating what they understood from the OT scriptures they had. I think sometimes our idealism gets in the way of the heart of scripture. Matt 18 is a powerful passage and should be exercised regularly, but we cannot use it as an excuse not to love, show grace and compassion, endure, etc. In a proper understanding of the totality of scripture, both can and do happen.

Once the scriptures have been thoroughly explained (even if people refuse to acknowledge them) the line must be drawn in the sand. Choose this day whom you will serve!

this can take years, months, days, hours...it can take our changing our own minds and hearts as to what it says, learning from those that we deem less mature....in fact, iron sharpens iron as the scripture says, so one man sharpens another. The 3 strikes your out policy does not fit this scenario.

Once the witness has spoken the people must choose a side. This is when we depart from one another. This is when a church splits.

now we are back to the individual to individual which I already agreed with you on, but this doesn't work as well with groups of people or missionary type settings, which is what I previously pointed out.

There are verses that speak of this. "They went out from us that it might be manifest that they were not of us"

amen...sometimes, our local bodies need cleansed, in fact, I have been praying for that cleansing in our body for a long time now. In fact, anyone who wants to be an effective minister of the gospel (group or otherwise) needs to be cleansed first. It's a very basic biblical teaching that is seldom if ever taught in the Western church today.

Again...this is the hardest part. Because we crave the unity and are desperate for them to be one with us. But if they refuse the witness of scripture then they are a poison in our midst. That poison will spread.

amen...I'm not sure it is the hardest part though, from discussions I have had with the faithful, the hardest part is being humble enough to be sure we are not the problem, that we are cleansed ourselves. Before asking or expecting God to change others, we need to be humble enough to be changed ourselves, to accept that maybe we were the ones not listening.

You said that there are those who were being saved. That is great. But are they infected with the poison? Many are defiled by it if we allow it to continue.

in the particular situation I was referring to, there are some who have been poisoned and some that have not. In fact, just this week, we saw some beginnings of the fruit of our labor in the faithful showing signs of being ready to stand firm...this has been a long time coming and took more than 3 tries, but they are beginning to put the teachings of God into practice, which is huge, and if we had given them 3 strikes and your out, they would have everyone fallen. In fact, there is one family who was driven out by evil that is not preparing themselves to return to fight for the church to return to God. One lamb is enough...for me as well as for Christ.

Here is another link I would like to give you: Why Are There So Many Christian Denominations

read it, didn't see anything in it that would challenge anything I have said.

 

[jbearnolimits]

read it, didn't see anything in it that would challenge anything I have said.

LOL, that is because I am not challenging anything you said. Sometimes people agree on things but don't even know it (as we have already seen).

Here is what I see from what you posted:

You want to know how long we contend with people, going through the scriptures, and then going over them all over again because the people may have forgotten.

You seem to think what I suggest is a 3 strikes and you're out policy. This is very true. HOWEVER, when I say that we should open the scriptures together and examine them together there is no strike for someone who continues to learn and genuinely seeks to know the truth.

If someone doesn't understand the scripture, but is willing to learn then we are still in the process of letting the witness speak. The witness is being examined and may have to answer the same question many times in many ways. It is true that this can take years! But ultimately the person or group is still in the process of being shown the error of their thinking.

I think of how Paul said, When you should have been teachers you have need to be taught the first things again. He continued to teach them. This was because they were still learning.

But when there is no longer the desire to learn and only a desire to prove your point no matter what, then the process ends. It becomes a child's game of "Did not! Did to!" One side refuses to give up their view no matter what the witness has said.

This is when the line must be drawn.

Yes, it does come back down to an individual at this point. The group is made of individuals. That is why the line is drawn. The individual must make their own choice. They must follow one side or the other. They must follow the testimony of the witness, or not.

There are so many trapped in the valley of decision. They stand frozen between two opinions. They must make a choice. Because we are with Christ or against Him.

 

[razzelflabben]

LOL, that is because I am not challenging anything you said. Sometimes people agree on things but don't even know it (as we have already seen).

basically, what I was saying is that you are not addressing the times when Matt. 18 does not work to tell us when to shake the dust off our feet. IOW's to the point you have been willing to go, we agree, but you are refusing to step over the line of understanding that some things do not apply to Matt. 18 as to when to shake the dust, as in missionary work, or the larger group.

Here is what I see from what you posted:

You want to know how long we contend with people, going through the scriptures, and then going over them all over again because the people may have forgotten.

that is one scenario, others were given as well. I also provided the way I discovered in scripture as to those times when Matt. 18 does not apply and you offered nothing in response other than Matt. 18.

You seem to think what I suggest is a 3 strikes and you're out policy. This is very true. HOWEVER, when I say that we should open the scriptures together and examine them together there is no strike for someone who continues to learn and genuinely seeks to know the truth.

right, so we have a mixed group of people, some want to know, understand, follow scripture and some don't. You want to apply Matt. 18 to that situation, thus, I can only assume you would condemn those who are seeking to follow God along with those who are not? That would seem the logical choice in your given application to the question at hand.

If someone doesn't understand the scripture, but is willing to learn then we are still in the process of letting the witness speak. The witness is being examined and may have to answer the same question many times in many ways. It is true that this can take years! But ultimately the person or group is still in the process of being shown the error of their thinking.

see above.

I think of how Paul said, When you should have been teachers you have need to be taught the first things again. He continued to teach them. This was because they were still learning.

we aren't talking about teaching at this point, at this point we are talking about when to stop teaching, when to conclude they have spoken. People say all the "right" things all the time, but their hearts can be far from God no matter what they say...just because someone says, Lord Lord does not mean they belong to God. How then do we know if they say they are learning, if they say they are trying? How do we know if a group can be reached, by the few that are listening? These are questions that Matt. 18 cannot answer for us.

But when there is no longer the desire to learn and only a desire to prove your point no matter what, then the process ends. It becomes a child's game of "Did not! Did to!" One side refuses to give up their view no matter what the witness has said.

that can absolutely happen, but that again isn't the scenario we are talking about here in this...(looking for a term)...question and answer discussion.

This is when the line must be drawn.

but in the situation offered for discussion, you have three things happening that you are not addressing 1. it is a group setting, not an individual one. 2. some in the group accept the teaching, some don't and 3. in the case of missionary work, they are not brothers thus not under Matt. 18 which specifies a brother.

Yes, it does come back down to an individual at this point. The group is made of individuals. That is why the line is drawn. The individual must make their own choice. They must follow one side or the other. They must follow the testimony of the witness, or not.

wait a moment, here we may disagree...yes, the group is made up of individuals, however, the bible teaches that the individuals make up one body, not many. Thus, there is a situation in which the body is a whole unit, unable to be separated.

There are so many trapped in the valley of decision. They stand frozen between two opinions. They must make a choice. Because we are with Christ or against Him.

amen...see, none of this applies to what I am asking, or answering.

 

[Norah63]

And the freedom to grow in maturity as able or willing to recieve.
Not measuring ourselves by our selves.
There does not need to be cookie-cutter christians. Always new babes coming into the kingdom.
Older ones teaching the younger, and teaching is just that, offering wisdom. Not force feeding.
On these forums many have a setteled belief system, they want to share it with others.
Sometimes it gets a little heated, and then its probably best to agree to disagree.
Still keeping our cool and remembering the golden rule.
Just my opinion.

 

[razzelflabben]

And the freedom to grow in maturity as able or willing to recieve.
Not measuring ourselves by our selves.
There does not need to be cookie-cutter christians. Always new babes coming into the kingdom.
Older ones teaching the younger, and teaching is just that, offering wisdom. Not force feeding.
On these forums many have a setteled belief system, they want to share it with others.
Sometimes it gets a little heated, and then its probably best to agree to disagree.
Still keeping our cool and remembering the golden rule.
Just my opinion.

If you think about it, every time we follow Matt. 18 and come to the end of the matter without reconciliation, we are agreeing to disagree....just pointing that out.

 

[jbearnolimits]

basically, what I was saying is that you are not addressing the times when Matt. 18 does not work to tell us when to shake the dust off our feet. IOW's to the point you have been willing to go, we agree, but you are refusing to step over the line of understanding that some things do not apply to Matt. 18 as to when to shake the dust, as in missionary work, or the larger group. that is one scenario, others were given as well. I also provided the way I discovered in scripture as to those times when Matt. 18 does not apply and you offered nothing in response other than Matt. 18. right, so we have a mixed group of people, some want to know, understand, follow scripture and some don't. You want to apply Matt. 18 to that situation, thus, I can only assume you would condemn those who are seeking to follow God along with those who are not? That would seem the logical choice in your given application to the question at hand. see above. we aren't talking about teaching at this point, at this point we are talking about when to stop teaching, when to conclude they have spoken. People say all the "right" things all the time, but their hearts can be far from God no matter what they say...just because someone says, Lord Lord does not mean they belong to God. How then do we know if they say they are learning, if they say they are trying? How do we know if a group can be reached, by the few that are listening? These are questions that Matt. 18 cannot answer for us. that can absolutely happen, but that again isn't the scenario we are talking about here in this...(looking for a term)...question and answer discussion. but in the situation offered for discussion, you have three things happening that you are not addressing 1. it is a group setting, not an individual one. 2. some in the group accept the teaching, some don't and 3. in the case of missionary work, they are not brothers thus not under Matt. 18 which specifies a brother. wait a moment, here we may disagree...yes, the group is made up of individuals, however, the bible teaches that the individuals make up one body, not many. Thus, there is a situation in which the body is a whole unit, unable to be separated. amen...see, none of this applies to what I am asking, or answering.

I think I understand what you are saying now. Please correct me if I am wrong. It would seem that you are asking how to know when to leave a group if there are still people caught in the middle. Is that correct?

If so I will respond to that a little later, I spent the day at the hospital yesterday and into today with my wife. So I am a little tired and have a lot of work to do around the house. Company is going to be coming to stay a few days with us so I need to get things ready.

 

[Free at Calvary]

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Titus 3:9 Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Titus 3;10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think I understand what you are saying now. Please correct me if I am wrong. It would seem that you are asking how to know when to leave a group if there are still people caught in the middle. Is that correct?

If so I will respond to that a little later, I spent the day at the hospital yesterday and into today with my wife. So I am a little tired and have a lot of work to do around the house. Company is going to be coming to stay a few days with us so I need to get things ready.

So sorry to hear of your recent hospital visit, hope everyone is on the mend.
The examples I gave where Matt 18 does not seem to apply as to when to shake the dust off our feet were, 1. in a body in which some are striving to follow and some are not...and 2. in the case of a missionary going into a community of non believers.

 

[razzelflabben]

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Titus 3:9 Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Titus 3;10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

are you trying to apply this to the OP or to the question at hand?

 

[jbearnolimits]

So sorry to hear of your recent hospital visit, hope everyone is on the mend.
The examples I gave where Matt 18 does not seem to apply as to when to shake the dust off our feet were, 1. in a body in which some are striving to follow and some are not...and 2. in the case of a missionary going into a community of non believers.

I will address these in the order you gave.

1. You suggested that Matt 18 does not apply in a body where some are trying to follow and others are not.

My answer:

Paul was speaking one day in Acts 13 to the Jews. There were some who believed and wanted to follow. We see this in verse 43. But then there were those who refused. We see them in verse 45.

In this case we see a group divided. There are now 2 groups. Some want to follow and others do not. Paul does not remain there though. He shakes the dust off of his feet.

It was when the unbelieving group refused to listen that he did this (which is according to Matt 18). Now, he did not cut off those who believed. He just no longer associated with the entire group as a whole. Those who believed were still accepted though.

From experiance I have seen this work. As a member of a body (a certain local church) there came a time when the body was divided and one side made the choice to deny scripture. There were however others who still wanted to do what was right. They were undecided.

So I had to remove myself from the body (as a whole), and I met only with those who still wanted to learn outside of it. In this way I had drawn a line. The body who refused stood on one side and I on another. In the middle were those who did not know what to do.

I had already departed from the body, but I remained faithful outside of it to those who would learn. Eventualy they left the body as well after learning. So there was no more people in the middle.

This is how Paul did it as well. Because as long as you stay in a body that denys the scripture you will begin to take on their reputation. If I say I am a member of a baptist church that has a reputation for blowing up abortion clinics (I am not saying this is what baptist do, I am making up an example, total fiction here), then I am seen by people as being a part of that. This is true even if I am trying to teach against it.

But if I come out of that body and still speak with those who remain in it that are willing, then my reputation is intact and I can win people to follow God.

2. In the case of a missionary going to a city with non-believers.

My answer:

The goal is to preach the Gospel to everyone, right? Once it is preached in a city and everyone has heard it then people must make a choice. The line in the sand is drawn again. The same pattern is followed. The people become divided into believers, non-believers, and those in the middle.
Again, once this happens we must shake the dust off of our feet from those who refuse to listen, while remaining faithful to those who will.

I know it seems like there is a difference between a group and an individual. But when it comes to hearing and believing the truth, we are each responsible for what side of the line we are on. It isn't a group decision at all.

When everyone in the city is reached with the message and the line becomes clear to everyone then we move on from those who rejected and go to another city to preach the message there and draw the line again.

My basic answer is that we deal with individuals, and those individuals make up groups. The individuals who believe are one group and those who do not are another, and the individuals in the middle are yet another. We shake the dust from the ones who do not believe, while teaching the other two.

 

[razzelflabben]

I will address these in the order you gave.

1. You suggested that Matt 18 does not apply in a body where some are trying to follow and others are not.

My answer:

Paul was speaking one day in Acts 13 to the Jews. There were some who believed and wanted to follow. We see this in verse 43. But then there were those who refused. We see them in verse 45.

In this case we see a group divided. There are now 2 groups. Some want to follow and others do not. Paul does not remain there though. He shakes the dust off of his feet.

It was when the unbelieving group refused to listen that he did this (which is according to Matt 18). Now, he did not cut off those who believed. He just no longer associated with the entire group as a whole. Those who believed were still accepted though.

so you think that Paul didn't associate with believers that stayed because he was a traveling pastor not a stationary one? Interesting concept but I really don't see how it applies to the question at hand. In fact, I don't know of any true believer that Paul refused to minister to, not in that passage or in any other.

From experiance I have seen this work. As a member of a body (a certain local church) there came a time when the body was divided and one side made the choice to deny scripture. There were however others who still wanted to do what was right. They were undecided.

if they want to do it right, they are NOT undecided...not sure how you think that covenanting to follow scripture is undecided.

So I had to remove myself from the body (as a whole), and I met only with those who still wanted to learn outside of it. In this way I had drawn a line. The body who refused stood on one side and I on another. In the middle were those who did not know what to do.

but that is three groups not two like you said before and you did not shake the dust off, you just simply left the church, two very different things being described.

I had already departed from the body, but I remained faithful outside of it to those who would learn. Eventualy they left the body as well after learning. So there was no more people in the middle.

then you did not apply Matthew 18 to the body as a whole but to individual people in the body. I am asking about a body, not a group of individuals. In fact, previously you tried to conclude that a body is only made up of individuals, but as I pointed out to you, that is NOT what scripture says about the body. Scripture says that though they are individuals, they are in fact, a single body....so, if you are going to try to apply Matt. 18 to the body like you keep trying to insist we do, then you would have to leave the whole body, not just those members that agree with you. IOW's if we understand the body as scripture describes it, then applying Matt 18 is to the whole entire body, not just those individuals that we agree with, otherwise, we are contributing to the disunity, with is sinful.

This is how Paul did it as well. Because as long as you stay in a body that denys the scripture you will begin to take on their reputation. If I say I am a member of a baptist church that has a reputation for blowing up abortion clinics (I am not saying this is what baptist do, I am making up an example, total fiction here), then I am seen by people as being a part of that. This is true even if I am trying to teach against it.

that is when the line is clearly drawn, but in a body of many individuals, that can and usually does take a lot longer than 3 meetings...in fact, to apply Matt 18 to the church body, let's say a body of 100 members, you would have no less than over 300 meetings before you could tell where the line was to be drawn, because remember, the first meeting is one on one, and since we are talking about a body of 100 people, you need to talk to each individual separately, then you take a witness, I'm not real sure where you would get the witness since everyone in the church is in the reconciliation process, but that is another 100 meetings, and then each member has to be taken before the church, which is another 300 meetings, so our 3 strikes and your out just turned into 300 strikes and now, I still can't shake the dust off, cause I still am tied to some of the members. See, Matt. 18 does not apply to the church as a whole body, but rather to individual members of the body.

But if I come out of that body and still speak with those who remain in it that are willing, then my reputation is intact and I can win people to follow God.

personally, I don't worry about reputation, in fact, scripture tells me that my reputation is my witness to the world, therefore, I worry about serving the Lord and allow Him to protect my reputation, since HE has a much more vested interest in it anyway.

2. In the case of a missionary going to a city with non-believers.

My answer:

The goal is to preach the Gospel to everyone, right? Once it is preached in a city and everyone has heard it then people must make a choice. The line in the sand is drawn again. The same pattern is followed. The people become divided into believers, non-believers, and those in the middle.
Again, once this happens we must shake the dust off of our feet from those who refuse to listen, while remaining faithful to those who will.

wow, so you think that everyone only gets one chance to hear the gospel and then your just out of luck...sorry, I guess we disagree more than we agree, especially given how many times God forgives us, how many times HE reminds us...sorry, I'll take Jesus example over your ideas here any day of the week.

I know it seems like there is a difference between a group and an individual. But when it comes to hearing and believing the truth, we are each responsible for what side of the line we are on. It isn't a group decision at all.

I don't even know what you are trying to say here...no one is suggesting that salvation is a group effort, where would you get that idea?

When everyone in the city is reached with the message and the line becomes clear to everyone then we move on from those who rejected and go to another city to preach the message there and draw the line again.

really, you think that you can reach everyone in say NYC with the gospel, especial given how many people move in and out in a given day...and that doesn't even take into consideration how many times some people need to hear something before it makes sense or the time God needs to work in their life preparing the heart. And, then we complicate things further by the guy like goes to our church, he is an atheist, yet attends church with his family every single sunday...goes to ss even and there asks great questions that help to clarify scripture. He has heard the gospel many times over, is not disruptive at all, does not try to convince anyone they are wrong, doesn't hold any authority in the church, but you would have us kick him out and not associate with him because he refuses to believe, refuses to yield himself to the Lord? Sorry, you and I must be reading different bibles on this issue.

My basic answer is that we deal with individuals, and those individuals make up groups. The individuals who believe are one group and those who do not are another, and the individuals in the middle are yet another. We shake the dust from the ones who do not believe, while teaching the other two.

see above...

 

[jbearnolimits]

I'm really not wanting to argue here or get anyone upset. I just want to show what I see in the scriptures and let you show what you see.

So with that said I will continue.

It seems our misunderstanding comes in at how we see a group. Is it one body, or is it many individuals? The scripture says it is both. Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:12, and 1 Corinthians 12:27

if they want to do it right, they are NOT undecided...not sure how you think that covenanting to follow scripture is undecided.

Someone can want to do what is right, but not know what that is. So they must be taught.

but that is three groups not two like you said before and you did not shake the dust off, you just simply left the church, two very different things being described.

Forgive me. I had a feeling this would be confusing but I refused to correct it before I posted it. So for that please forgive me.

There are indeed 3 groups in a case were some may be undecided and needing help. As for the litteral shaking off of dust, yes, I actually did do that. But that isn't the point. This is about knowing when to leave.

IOW's if we understand the body as scripture describes it, then applying Matt 18 is to the whole entire body, not just those individuals that we agree with, otherwise, we are contributing to the disunity, with is sinful.

Again, the scripture doesn't just say many people make up a body, it also says a body is made of many people. So it is interchangeable in this way.

When you said "I am asking about a body, not a group of individuals." you may not have known it but the statement was actually contradictory to itself.

And yes, I want to divide Satan. Because if I can pull the leaven out of the bread then I can save some. If I support the unity of lies with truth, then I condemn the whole group. This is not sin. It is purification.

but in a body of many individuals, that can and usually does take a lot longer than 3 meetings

Remember when we talked about the body and individuals being interchangeable? If the common belief and teaching of the body is wrong, then calling a meeting with the body as a whole and speaking with them as a united whole is the same as speaking with a single person in private. Since they are all saying the same thing. You would have just cut down the 100 meetings to one.

Because if there is a wound in the body, the whole body needs to know about it.

I'm not real sure where you would get the witness since everyone in the church is in the reconciliation process

I have been trying to show that scripture is the witness.

personally, I don't worry about reputation

Serving the Lord will keep your reputation intact. Because to obey God means we will keep ourselves from even the appearance of evil.

The reason I brought it up was just a side note. Kind of like a cherry on top. It isn't something I am very focused on in this topic anyway.

wow, so you think that everyone only gets one chance to hear the gospel and then your just out of luck

LOL, no, you misunderstand me. God is longsuffering towards us. We should also be to others.

I will have to make some concessions here. I have been going about this topic as though to say that we should move on from people and no longer speak with them. But this is not what Matt 18 says.

Instead it says that they should be treated as an heratic. We are not to be numbered with such (called one of them), but we are to attempt to reach them.

So in that I do have to say you are right. We are not to simply "move on". But we ARE supposed to be separated from them.

really, you think that you can reach everyone in say NYC with the gospel, especial given how many people move in and out in a given day

Again, I admit I have been wrong in my thought about moving on. In fact I remember Jesus said that all of the cities in Israel would not have been covered before He comes again.

So please allow me to change my statement here. We are not to be remained joined with a body that refuses the scriptures, but we are to continue to reach out to it from the outside.

I don't like to be wrong. But I hope that when people see my response to when I am wrong they will be encouraged to lay pride down as well. Following scripture is far more important to me. And since I don't like to be wrong, it is better to admit when I am so that I can become right.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm really not wanting to argue here or get anyone upset. I just want to show what I see in the scriptures and let you show what you see.

So with that said I will continue.

It seems our misunderstanding comes in at how we see a group. Is it one body, or is it many individuals? The scripture says it is both. Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:12, and 1 Corinthians 12:27

the scripture as I pointed out says that it is made up of many members but is only one. Thus, in my question about applying Matt. 18 to our understanding of leaving a group, I specified that we are talking about the collective group, not individuals in the group.

Maybe this will help you understand why the question is so important to the maturing believer. Recently, I finished a study on how we are to love (real love) in our various relationships. Those commands to love in our relationships include but are not limited to the body of believers, also known as brothers, saints, fellow workers, etc. Now, where the love we are commanded to have for one another, foreigner, enemy, wife, etc. is the same love, it manifests itself in different ways. Let me see, an example before we come back to the collective...ah, great example...we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, this is the exact same love husbands are to have for their wife, however, the love we have for God is manifest in our obedience to Him, the same is not true for the husbands relationship to the wife. Same Love different manifestations depending on who we are loving and thus how that love would best accomplish the goal of reconciliation. Ok, so back to the issue of the body. From the individual standpoint, the love manifest to the body is a love that participates in the encouragement of growing everyone up in the faith. IOW's the purpose, or way that reconciliation (the goal of real love) comes about is through building each other up through the use of the God given gifts. From the body, love is manifest in the building us up in the faith. IOW's it is a give and take relationship, there is not "teacher" "student" relationship as most people think about it, only equals encouraging, strengthening, helping each other grow in our Lord so that we might be able to present all members as mature believers.

Now, this being true, from a scriptural pov not usually from a practicing pov, Matt 18 cannot really apply to the church as a collective perspective as I have already demonstrated. It can and should be used from an individual perspective and this is what we see taught in scripture. In fact, when an individual sinned, they were reprimanded according to Matt. 18 throughout the NT. But when the sin was collective, Paul especially, didn't follow the 3 strikes rule, but rather, he simply "wrote letters" (being that is what we have) of correction. Letters that 1. encouraged, 2. corrected, and 3. encouraged again. In fact, I don't recall a single time Paul said to the collective body, "I will disown you if you don't listen to what I am saying"....rather, he was patient with them, teaching them, praying for them, correcting as often as he needed to, and encouraging them unto Godliness every step of the way. This is in direct contrast to what you have been suggesting we do in the case of the collective group. In fact, real love demands that we persevere, endure, that we are long suffering, which again, is in direct contrast to what you have been purposing when it comes to the group.

Now before we move on, let me also remind you of what Matt. 18 tells us at the end of the instruction...17b treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector....we are not to treat the pagan or tax collector by disassociating with them, but rather we are to treat them as the lost, the unbeliever who needs Christ and sees that Christ through our Godly example lived out in their presence. IOW's the brother who refuses to hear correction is to be treated like an believer who needs Christ. But according to your post, you would have the unbeliever hear the gospel once, then push them aside to share the gospel with someone else. Most people need to hear the gospel more than once before they turn, much less understand enough to turn. That is why Love is long suffering, why it perseveres, why it endures and why this enduring perseverance is such a pleasing aroma to God.

Someone can want to do what is right, but not know what that is. So they must be taught.

no problem...when it comes to teaching, the church today is failing big time and it grieves me greatly, but that is a different topic all together, one that I should not get started on in this thread.

Forgive me. I had a feeling this would be confusing but I refused to correct it before I posted it. So for that please forgive me.

no worries

There are indeed 3 groups in a case were some may be undecided and needing help. As for the litteral shaking off of dust, yes, I actually did do that. But that isn't the point. This is about knowing when to leave.

we have had to shake the dust off before too...but that does not answer the question of when is it time to shake the dust off.

Let me tell you another quick story. Last night, we made a phone call to our current pastor (long story) apologizing for something trivial that happened that offended someone in the body. (another long story, you will just have to take my word for it) Scripture tells us to teach the weaker brother through example, which we were trying to do, but since we do not know who that brother is, we only could go through the pastor to try to make amends for something that should not have offended and only offended one person. Okay, so, to point...we could shake the dust off our feet and leave the church over this matter (because it is so stupid of a thing to be upset over) which our pastor was afraid would happen, or, we can follow scripture, avoid the issue in the future, and show the church and the person how to deal with the matter scripturally.

Leaving a church body over something trivial simply because someone is not conforming to scripture is not in line with the purpose of the body or the gifts. It isn't a 3 strikes your out mentality when it comes to someone wanting to be offended. Rather, scripture not only talks about the weaker brother, but it also tells us to live at peace as much as we are able to, with one another. Being a trivial issue, conforming is nothing more than an opportunity to show this people the power of real Love, that puts others above ourselves, in an act of humility, just like Christ did for us. Now, because of other issues in the church, it would be easy for us to say, the person in question was (by people keeping name private) corrected, both individually and with witness, if the person continues and the church doesn't do anything, we should just leave...but that only shows a coward-es, a pride that is the antithesis of who God really is.

Again, the scripture doesn't just say many people make up a body, it also says a body is made of many people. So it is interchangeable in this way.

see above

When you said "I am asking about a body, not a group of individuals." you may not have known it but the statement was actually contradictory to itself.

not at all, scripture says this...not sure what translation you like the best, NIV came up first in my cut and paste, but they all say the same thing....
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.


It is very clearly the collective that makes up the body, not the individuals, iow's your hand is not separate from your arm, and it works in conjunction with your fingers, brain, nerves, etc. They are not independent of one another. For further evidence of what I am saying, look at the Lord's prayer...it is plural, not singular. Our example of how to pray is the collective, it is the understanding that we are NOT an island, but rather a small part of the whole. The church, that is the group is the bride of Christ, bride being singular, not plural...one bride, many members. So my comment is straight out of the bible.

 

[razzelflabben]

part 2


And yes, I want to divide Satan. Because if I can pull the leaven out of the bread then I can save some. If I support the unity of lies with truth, then I condemn the whole group. This is not sin. It is purification.[/quote] I'm not suggesting we don't purify, nor that we allow sin to go unchecked, where would you come up with the idea that I am? Seriously, from what I have said, why would you think I think purification should not happen?

Remember when we talked about the body and individuals being interchangeable?

this might be one of the huge problems with the church, right here...if you think that the individuals are interchangeable, and your thought is modern day teaching in the church, we have a problem. Scripture talks about how God is very specific in His choices, not just, "oh, we need someone to teach, go pick anyone you like"....no, God says, "I call, I choose, I equip, I am the one who decides, and you follow"...in fact, this is the issue in our church that started the last fight, this idea that God is not the one who calls and gifts, but we do by choosing whoever we want and hoping that God will approve of our decision.

If the common belief and teaching of the body is wrong, then calling a meeting with the body as a whole and speaking with them as a united whole is the same as speaking with a single person in private.

not at all, because they are still divided into agreeing and disagreeing and undecided, you have not in this case followed Matt. 18 which starts by telling us to go privately if that doesn't work, take a witness, and if that doesn't work, take it before the body...you have skipped step one and two by calling the body together to discuss the issue right off the bat. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't want to start out sinning in an issue in which correction of another needs to happen, and I'm pretty sure scripture doesn't either. In fact, we are to cleanse ourselves before we attempt to correct others. If I start out by sinning, I am not cleansed, therefore, have no authority to correct others. If you are right, and we are to apply Matt. 18 to the collective group, then we have to start out by going to each individual or we are in violation of Matt. 18 and thus sinning.

Since they are all saying the same thing. You would have just cut down the 100 meetings to one.

You previously said that there were three groups, now you are saying there is only one...when did this change occur? The 200 previous meetings that you just said didn't need to happen, is that where the change came?

Because if there is a wound in the body, the whole body needs to know about it.

yep...not in question.

I have been trying to show that scripture is the witness.

by showing that in the case of the body, we are allowed to deviate from scripture? Look, before you take that comment the wrong way (medium used) let me say this...I personally find your posts to be a breath of fresh air, a determined to obey God no matter the cost kind of fresh air that the body of believers needs renewed in. At the same time, I find you to need to learn what it means to be so rigid that you do not understand what God intended or who He really is. You have a zeal I would love to see catch on, but until you grasp that certain things in scripture only apply to certain situations, you are going to miss God and His intent for you. Learning this takes time, study, experience, HS, but you are on the right track, just don't become so calloused you can't see the truth when it is staring you in the face, or the lessons that you are about to learn will be very difficult ones to be sure.

Serving the Lord will keep your reputation intact. Because to obey God means we will keep ourselves from even the appearance of evil.

amen

The reason I brought it up was just a side note. Kind of like a cherry on top. It isn't something I am very focused on in this topic anyway.

LOL, no, you misunderstand me. God is longsuffering towards us. We should also be to others.

but we are not long suffering when we say, told you once about Jesus, time to move on now...real love takes time. That is one of many reasons you cannot apply Matt 18 to every situation in which you might need to move on.

I will have to make some concessions here. I have been going about this topic as though to say that we should move on from people and no longer speak with them. But this is not what Matt 18 says.

Instead it says that they should be treated as an heratic. We are not to be numbered with such (called one of them), but we are to attempt to reach them.

So in that I do have to say you are right. We are not to simply "move on". But we ARE supposed to be separated from them.

lol...see above...also note that to shake the dust off one's feet, is an act of moving on, not an act of separating from their teaching....

Again, I admit I have been wrong in my thought about moving on. In fact I remember Jesus said that all of the cities in Israel would not have been covered before He comes again.

So please allow me to change my statement here. We are not to be remained joined with a body that refuses the scriptures, but we are to continue to reach out to it from the outside.

amen...but now, back to the other portion of this...how do we know when we have taught all that we can teach and their mind is made up? That being the body in this case. Take for example the missionary, who goes into a place sharing the gospel. For years and sometimes years, they work with the people sharing Christ...when do they know it is time to shake the dust off their feet and walk away? Should they only stay 3 days, the first day telling the people about Jesus, the second day, bringing in a witness to tell them together, the third day going back to their home church, telling them that they have been refused and that it must be God's will that they go on to the next village because no one has yet believed? One thing I have learned from both experience and scripture is that Love is long suffering, iow's sometimes, it takes a good long while before people see the love of God that is being shown them. Love isn't a 3 strikes your out kind of thing, but rather an enduring kind of thing. The current church we are attending, we had been attending for about 2 years. In that 2 years, we showed these people what love is, how to love, why to love, etc. IOW's we lived out scripture in front of them and challenged them to do the same. About 2 years into our journey with them, our son died, and in those early days and hours of disbelief (at what happened, not of God) and unbelievable grief, at least one person said, "I never knew that kind of love could exist on this earth until I saw it flowing through you"...two years, not 3 tries, to get them to see that God is alive, well, and living on this earth and transforming lives in ways that most cannot imagine. 2 years, not 3 tries! and they are still learning, even though they don't want to learn, God is still showing them. Even though there are some who want to push it all aside so that they can control, God is still teaching...so how do we know when God is done teaching and it is time for us to leave? Surely not 3 strikes...surly God is still showing them His love to the bitter end....yet we are told there is a time to walk away, a time to move on...when is that time is the question being asked

I don't like to be wrong. But I hope that when people see my response to when I am wrong they will be encouraged to lay pride down as well. Following scripture is far more important to me. And since I don't like to be wrong, it is better to admit when I am so that I can become right.

one of the things I absolutely love and admire about you! In fact, I defended you to my husband after he read your last post, because your heart was revealed and it showed a passion for God above your own pride...

 

[Norah63]

One plants, one waters, it is God that gives the increase.
I am enjoying the conversation and understanding some of both sides.

 

[razzelflabben]

One plants, one waters, it is God that gives the increase.
I am enjoying the conversation and understanding some of both sides.

amen...we sometimes forget that we are just clay in the potters hands

 

[jbearnolimits]

One plants, one waters, it is God that gives the increase.
I am enjoying the conversation and understanding some of both sides.

This is actually an example of how to deal with different doctrines. If there are opposing views we come together, open the scriptures, and examine ourselves by them. Iron sharpens iron. What you know may help me to know more, and what I know may help you.

It is good to see this in action. It is how I see the church act in Acts 15.

@ razzelflabben: I do see that some things in the Bible directly relate to certain situations. In fact it is very possible that you are correct in this issue of Matt 18 not being the best example for this situation.

I think my mind works a little bit differently as to how I see a body of believers. To me it more the individuals that I look at. So I treat it as a lot of individuals coming together as one.

So I will seek this matter out a little more in the scriptures. I would like to ask a question. It is the same one you have asked. Maybe you already have the answer and I haven't let you give it. How do you know when to leave?

If you believe you know, please share those scriptures. Meanwhile I will search for them as well.

 

[Norah63]

When to leave what, may I ask?
A congregation, a prayer group, a denomination, a city or area?
Help us a little more.
No matter the local, we are a part of the body of Christ, however we choose to see or define them.imo
If called of God to be a teacher or whatever, only He can tell us when and where to put our feet.

 

[razzelflabben]

This is actually an example of how to deal with different doctrines. If there are opposing views we come together, open the scriptures, and examine ourselves by them. Iron sharpens iron. What you know may help me to know more, and what I know may help you.

It is good to see this in action. It is how I see the church act in Acts 15.

@ razzelflabben: I do see that some things in the Bible directly relate to certain situations. In fact it is very possible that you are correct in this issue of Matt 18 not being the best example for this situation.

I think my mind works a little bit differently as to how I see a body of believers. To me it more the individuals that I look at. So I treat it as a lot of individuals coming together as one.

So I will seek this matter out a little more in the scriptures. I would like to ask a question. It is the same one you have asked. Maybe you already have the answer and I haven't let you give it. How do you know when to leave?

If you believe you know, please share those scriptures. Meanwhile I will search for them as well.

this is such a cool thread with awesome people...thanks!

I did provide the answer that I found when asking the question, but, since you missed it, maybe a bit of back ground will help.

About 9 or so years ago, God laid on my heart and essay, I pushed it aside for over a year, just refused to deal with it, but God would not let me go. One afternoon, I took time to write the essay and when my husband got home, he promptly asked me where the rest of it was. That led us into a full time ministry of biblical Love. I spend on average 8-12 hours a day 6-7 days a week average either studying, writing, teaching, or counseling Biblical Love. This has been true for about 8 years now. I asked my husband once, if he ever thought when we started this ministry, that we there was so much about Love that we didn't know. He laughed, and said that he knew love was bigger than we could fathom, but he had no idea just how big until we began to study it.

So far, we have put together (ready for final edit and publication) 2 full and 2 partial study books about love, we have in mind another 4 and we will see after that what God wants from us. Each point in the books is supported by several passages, so that we do not lead anyone astray.

That being said, when I asked the question when do we know when to walk away, there were several prominent issues on my mind...1. was the local church body which is really too long a story to go into but is far from the first church we struggled with. 2. individuals who we are working with, some for years, 3. my health and finding a dr. who will actually treat me or just leave it go and assume God has it, and even things like 4. these boards where arguments seem to prevail with little learning and growing taking place. (others those are the main ones) so when do you shake the dirt off your feet?

Given that scripture tells us that God is love, that love sums up all the law and prophets, that we are commanded to love, that love is the mark of obedience, HS power, church life, etc. the answer I figured had to be found in love. So I went to scripture....what I found was three things that endure forever (we could separate it into more, but it seems easier to separate it this way) 1. God (one separation could be His name, but is not important to the question, so we bunch it together) 2. Love and 3. righteousness....everything else has a stopping point somewhere along the way, even faith and hope have a stopping point. So it seems to me that when one or more of the above 3 cease to be true, it is time to shake the dust off our feet and move on in cases that as you wisely pointed out do not apply to Matt. 18...take my health...long story made real short, I have anaphalaxic allergies to chemicals like herbicides and pesticides. I get very sick (even to the point of death) and have repeatedly been diagnosed, but can't get a Dr. who can do anything to treat me. So I face down death every day (literally) and no one will treat it. So when do we just accept that God is the one closing the door to help, well, if we look at the 3 things that endure forever, 1. God, it is glorifying God and has opened the door for the ministry we do. In fact, without my issues, I could not spend as much time in ministry as I do, nor could I be available to people 24/7 who need emergency on spiritual issues. So going without medical care is glorifying God. Check....2. Love...does this issue, and going untreated show Love? Absolutely, not only does God's love and grace abound to me daily, but through this issue, people see God's love in ways they could never have seen without the issue. and 3. righteousness, does it promote righteousness. I will testify to you that I have grown by leaps and bounds in my faith, as has my family and those that look to me to understand spiritual issues that most do not understand. Being that it passes the endures forever test, seems to me that enduring is the answer.

By contrast, the church will soon be faced with the issue of whether or not they are quenching the spirit...if they are, then they fail the test and we move on. Got to run, can talk more about it if you like