lizpeustace

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This is my first posting on here. I am in desperate need of some Christian-to-Christian advice right now. Forgive the long detailed post, but it's necessary to describe the situation.

So, here's the deal. I am 19, newly married, and plan to be in ministry for my life's work. Taking a hiatus from school for financial reasons, but once everything gets cleared up I'll be back at it. Currently I lead worship for a very small church plant about 30 minutes from my house. Before I led there, I led for different youth groups and helped out with any praise/worship team that I could. I love it.

I have been at my current position since March of 2015. Got connected with this church through a contemporary worship night that I played at and the pastor spoke there as well. He asked me to lead worship for them on and off for about two months before officially taking me on as their "Interim Worship Leader," and once 3 months were up he asked me to stay on staff. Which I obviously did.

It started out really super great. I enjoyed the preaching, the small but contemporary atmosphere, and the way that everything was set up. It was different to anything that I'd ever seen in the church world and I liked it. On top of just really enjoying the vibe, they also paid me a flat rate of $50 a week, which was also really new to me. All worship work I'd done up to this point was volunteer-based, and I had felt that I wanted it more than the leaders and team members there wanted/needed me. It was nice. I got to do what I loved, in an environment I liked, and get paid for it - even though it wasn't very much. I didn't - and still don't - mind.

Well, about 6 months in things started to change. Our worship ministry began to grow. Instead of just me on acoustic and a djembe player, we now have a keyboardist and bassist. Like two instruments shy of a full band. When this first happened I felt like I was swimming blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back. I was very new to coordinating people twice and three times my age, and I was very uncomfortable doing so. The pastor began to give me advice on how to handle it, which was appreciated at first, and then it began to morph into something else.

He tells me to plan 5 and 6 weeks ahead (he doesn't even have sermon ideas for this far out) so that the team can be prepared and practice, and so I do that, and the week of he tells me to change everything, completely negating the point of me taking time out of my week to plan that far out. He tells us (the worship team) his plan for closing, and our cue to come in, then does something completely different leaving us clueless. We do our best playing it by ear, and then he complains to me during our weekly meetings of how awful it turned out. He tells me to get creative, and so I tell him my ideas, and he immediately dismisses them as if either a) they are stupid or b) sometimes he just acts as if I didn't say anything. Which really angers me.

I've done my best to just keep a straight face and comply to what he wants, which is difficult because he is very picky but doesn't always tell me what he wants until after I do whatever-it-is wrong. So it's a very unnerving guessing game. But all of this has leaked into Sunday morning service. Now, I don't know that the pastor has actually changed the way he preaches/talks but it sure seems that way. I no longer enjoy the sermons nor get anything from them. They feel shallow and sometimes even nonexistant on a theological scale. My husband also leaves Sunday service not feeling spiritually fed, which is even more frustrating for me.

My breaking point was the last couple of weeks. I allowed a member of the congregation to come up on stage to play tambourine in the back of all the musicians (next to the drummer, not even in the light, could barely be seen). She did a great job. The next meeting, the pastor tells me that he didn't like that, that I should have asked him first, and that (here's the kicker) he "didn't like the way she was dressed." (She was wearing jeans, UGG boots, and her church volunteer T-shirt.) This really unsettled me. His church's motto is "come as you are." If that's truly what you want to preach, should you not practice and demonstrate it also by who you allow up there???

For quite some time the pastor has been telling me that he doesn't like the look of the music stands that the bassist and keyboardists use on stage. Now, these people are grown adults that have 40-50 hour work weeks that also causes them to go out of town for the majority of their week. To be honest, I am just completely humbled that God stirred in their hearts to help out with my little worship ministry. I try to honor them and their time as much as I can. I told them that we could no longer have music stands up there, but if they needed their chord charts they could put it somewhere hidden just to glance at now and again. The pastor didn't like this either. He told me the purpose of getting rid of the stands is so that they couldn't look at their music, because it's totally not too much to ask of traveling, arguably already overworked adults (one of which whose wife currently has cancer) to memorize 4+ songs every week. I brought up an idea to him that we put the chords on the TV screen the musicians see, so that the chords wouldn't be cluttering the stage but also to inspire confidence in them to look out in the crowd every once in a while. He acted like this was the worst idea in the world. He literally told me that no church he knew of ever did something like this, when literally every larger church I've been a part of does this.

Honestly, I am fed up. What are your thoughts on how I should handle this situation? Pretty much everyone is telling me to leave. I'm just not sure how to do it properly.

Thanks and God bless.
 

paul1149

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A good leader will give his subordinates as much space as possible, for creative juices to be released and for them to grow. I see no scriptural justification of the so-called "mosaic" model of pastoring, and indeed, even Moses had captains of 50s and 100s to decide lesser issues, on the advice of his father in law, lest he become "worn out". It may be that as the church has grown the pastor is not feeling secure about his own performance, and is clamping down in an attempt to regain control.

What to ultimately do I can't say, but you should understand that in staying you are going the extra mile, because this situation is neither normal nor healthy. AISI, going the extra mile isn't forever, it is as Holy Spirit leads. It may be time to begin praying about having a talk with the pastor regarding how you see your position and what you believe you need in order to fulfill it.
 
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BFine

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We left one church because of this...
You couldn't talk with the minister about problems,
there weren't any problems unless he said so.

Early on...
We did try to talk about the problems with the minister,
we were ignored--he walked away from us quite a few times.
This was also done to many others, who also ended up
leaving the church.

When we did leave, we did so without any fanfare...
one Sunday we were there, after that, we looked elsewhere
for a church to attend.
 
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Odetta

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If you want to leave, write a letter of resignation and give two or more weeks notice. Keep it neutral and short, do not bad mouth the pastor or rehash any of the problems you've been dealing with. Just say that after much prayer, you feel that you are not the person the church needs in this position, and are praying that God helps them find the right one. Also express gratitude for the opportunity they gave you. And then you're done, except for working the length of the notice or until they find a replacement or otherwise release you, whichever is shorter.

Alternatively, if you have another job lined up, you could say that you're resigning this job for that one, which is even more neutral than the God-says-I'm-not-the-one-you-need explanation.
 
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ValleyGal

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Have you talked with him yet about it? I think it's important to bring it up and try to work it out with him first. Of course, this will require tact, but if you are going to be working together as part of the service team, you need to learn how to work together. You could start by saying that you want to do a good job and work well together, and part of that is understanding your (and his) role. Ask him for a job description. Then if he starts bringing up things like the music stands, let him know that this is your craft and he hired you to be responsible for it. Ask him if he is having a hard time trusting you with your craft and why. Or explain to him that musicians can't be expected to memorize every song they perform. Get him to think about a piano... the old organs and pianos of decades past had built-in spot to put their books and often had a lamp attached for easier reading. That is industry standard, and your team should not be expected to go above industry standard as though they were professionals on a stage. If he does not like the appearance, then maybe he needs to invest in new music stands that he will find more appealing.

It sounds to me like you are just giving in to him whenever he changes his mind or asks you to go above and beyond. Be clear on your boundaries with him. Let him know you can plan up to 6 weeks in advance, but you need to know the order of service and the theme of his sermon so you are able to choose songs that will complement his service. Tell him that if he makes changes, you need two weeks in advance.

I dunno...it all seems a little strange. Our worship team goes week by week and they have the theme in advance. They are given the freedom to do their jobs without being micro-managed, especially because the pastor knows that often worship needs to be Spirit-led in the moment. The only thing our worship team knows weeks ahead is who is playing and when (we have several "teams" or people who are available on certain days, so although it's one team, only some will be playing on any given week).

Anyway, if he does not start working better with you, it might be an issue you have to take to the Board, but try to work it out with him first.
 
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Shempster

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This whole thread should point one towards a common idea.
Since we cannot read other peoples minds, we must assume meanings in many situations and ill guess we are wrong alot.
In the end, we are put with difficult people and circumstances for us to learn how to do GRACE.
If you run away, chances are you will have the same thing...or worse....in the next church.
 
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tturt

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Probably not a life course because he knows to cover the details of expectations prior to accepting positions within a church now.

Very delicately, I would talk with the pastor about it. Probably beginning with - do you want me to continue to be the worship leader? If so, let's discuss some of the challenges. The goal is to do what you want; however, ...

Think we need to be where Yahweh wants us to attend. So I would have to get His direction.
 
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quietpraiyze

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This is my first posting on here. I am in desperate need of some Christian-to-Christian advice right now. Forgive the long detailed post, but it's necessary to describe the situation.

So, here's the deal. I am 19, newly married, and plan to be in ministry for my life's work. Taking a hiatus from school for financial reasons, but once everything gets cleared up I'll be back at it. Currently I lead worship for a very small church plant about 30 minutes from my house. Before I led there, I led for different youth groups and helped out with any praise/worship team that I could. I love it.

I have been at my current position since March of 2015. Got connected with this church through a contemporary worship night that I played at and the pastor spoke there as well. He asked me to lead worship for them on and off for about two months before officially taking me on as their "Interim Worship Leader," and once 3 months were up he asked me to stay on staff. Which I obviously did.

It started out really super great. I enjoyed the preaching, the small but contemporary atmosphere, and the way that everything was set up. It was different to anything that I'd ever seen in the church world and I liked it. On top of just really enjoying the vibe, they also paid me a flat rate of $50 a week, which was also really new to me. All worship work I'd done up to this point was volunteer-based, and I had felt that I wanted it more than the leaders and team members there wanted/needed me. It was nice. I got to do what I loved, in an environment I liked, and get paid for it - even though it wasn't very much. I didn't - and still don't - mind.

Well, about 6 months in things started to change. Our worship ministry began to grow. Instead of just me on acoustic and a djembe player, we now have a keyboardist and bassist. Like two instruments shy of a full band. When this first happened I felt like I was swimming blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back. I was very new to coordinating people twice and three times my age, and I was very uncomfortable doing so. The pastor began to give me advice on how to handle it, which was appreciated at first, and then it began to morph into something else.

He tells me to plan 5 and 6 weeks ahead (he doesn't even have sermon ideas for this far out) so that the team can be prepared and practice, and so I do that, and the week of he tells me to change everything, completely negating the point of me taking time out of my week to plan that far out. He tells us (the worship team) his plan for closing, and our cue to come in, then does something completely different leaving us clueless. We do our best playing it by ear, and then he complains to me during our weekly meetings of how awful it turned out. He tells me to get creative, and so I tell him my ideas, and he immediately dismisses them as if either a) they are stupid or b) sometimes he just acts as if I didn't say anything. Which really angers me.

I've done my best to just keep a straight face and comply to what he wants, which is difficult because he is very picky but doesn't always tell me what he wants until after I do whatever-it-is wrong. So it's a very unnerving guessing game. But all of this has leaked into Sunday morning service. Now, I don't know that the pastor has actually changed the way he preaches/talks but it sure seems that way. I no longer enjoy the sermons nor get anything from them. They feel shallow and sometimes even nonexistant on a theological scale. My husband also leaves Sunday service not feeling spiritually fed, which is even more frustrating for me.

My breaking point was the last couple of weeks. I allowed a member of the congregation to come up on stage to play tambourine in the back of all the musicians (next to the drummer, not even in the light, could barely be seen). She did a great job. The next meeting, the pastor tells me that he didn't like that, that I should have asked him first, and that (here's the kicker) he "didn't like the way she was dressed." (She was wearing jeans, UGG boots, and her church volunteer T-shirt.) This really unsettled me. His church's motto is "come as you are." If that's truly what you want to preach, should you not practice and demonstrate it also by who you allow up there???

For quite some time the pastor has been telling me that he doesn't like the look of the music stands that the bassist and keyboardists use on stage. Now, these people are grown adults that have 40-50 hour work weeks that also causes them to go out of town for the majority of their week. To be honest, I am just completely humbled that God stirred in their hearts to help out with my little worship ministry. I try to honor them and their time as much as I can. I told them that we could no longer have music stands up there, but if they needed their chord charts they could put it somewhere hidden just to glance at now and again. The pastor didn't like this either. He told me the purpose of getting rid of the stands is so that they couldn't look at their music, because it's totally not too much to ask of traveling, arguably already overworked adults (one of which whose wife currently has cancer) to memorize 4+ songs every week. I brought up an idea to him that we put the chords on the TV screen the musicians see, so that the chords wouldn't be cluttering the stage but also to inspire confidence in them to look out in the crowd every once in a while. He acted like this was the worst idea in the world. He literally told me that no church he knew of ever did something like this, when literally every larger church I've been a part of does this.

Honestly, I am fed up. What are your thoughts on how I should handle this situation? Pretty much everyone is telling me to leave. I'm just not sure how to do it properly.

Thanks and God bless.

I guess I'll be odd person out here but I think the problem is bigger than the music ministry. You shared how the preaching has changed and you're not being edified spiritually or encouraged in the Lord. The Scripture that came to mind was 2 Timothy 3:5 but the whole chapter is worth reading and meditating on. There's something very wrong going on with this man you call a Pastor. If you stay, what will you really be supporting and who will you be exalting? Would you be promoting Christ and His Kingdom or man and his petty kingdom? Before you are a minister of music you are child of the most high God and don't forget that. If you leave if you can, leave in peace. You don't have to go into detail about everything. You can simply say “ This is my 2 week notice that I will no longer be available as a Worship Leader. If you would like for me to release out of the position sooner, I would be fine with that. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I truly appreciated it.”

From what you've shared, I would lean more toward leaving and finding a place with sound doctrine and healthy fellowship/relationships. Then wait (on the Lord) and see what kind of ministerial work he would have you do. I pray you the best.
 
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ToBeLoved

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This is the way I would personally handle it. I don't say I know all the intricities of music ministry, but overall I think I see the issues.

First, I would cut back. Talk to the pastor and tell him that you can only do this part -time like you did in the beginning. That will pull you out of all of the responsibility and the pastor demanding that you change this and that and the practices, ect. Because it sounds like since you went full time or whatever, now he thinks that he should have complete control.

When you pull back (taking a lower position w/ fewer hours) think really hard about which responsibilites you are willing to take on and which ones you are not. I would decide this all ahead of time, so when you go back to a part-time position you can clearly outline what you will do.

Then let him decide if he wants to bring on someone else. If he does, then you can easily get out of it because he has someone else to fulfill those responsibilities.

I would think back to what made you feel alive in worshipping the Lord in the beginning, because that should be your focus. I would bet that the congregation does not feel like the pastor and likes the worship being more laid back. Some people have more of a controlling nature than others.

Since the pastor wants control as much as you are willing to do it his way is as much as he is probably going to want. That's just the way controlling people are.

In your lesser position, you can seek other opportuities even for fun, volunteering if you like and see where God leads you. But you have to give a big responsiblity back to the pastor since he chooses to micro-manage then he can do that.

Stand firm in where God is leading you. Pull back when it doesn't feel right. The pastor has the option to lead his church and then you are going back to just helping with the worship ministry, not responsible as you and the pastor do not see eye to eye.

I think it will only get worse for you to stay on full time. Just my opinion.

God bless.
 
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Albion

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I'd say to leave. The question is about how to do it.

Of course, it's best if you do it face to face and don't accuse anyone of anything on the way out. I'd also point out that pastors can often be like you describe, and that this is just what happens with ordinary people in positions of leadership. It doesn't mean that they're all this way and it doesn't make this one a bad person, but "it happens." Most of us have experienced something similar to it in a job, school, or somewhere else that's comparable to your situation.

I say this because you might not find another position or congregation that will allow you to resume your work the way it was in the beginning with this one. But if you are willing to take that risk rather than go on with all the shortcomings that the current church and pastor present, do not hesitate to leave.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Once you started getting money the game changes, you are no longer your own boss but are seen as a hired gun so to speak.
You are going to have to pray and see what God wants of you in all of this keeping in mind that you are in part an employee of the pastor. You may have to confront him and decide to try and draw lines about things and take more charge of the situation or step down and relinquish your pay from the position and at most be again a volunteer musician.
 
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ValleyGal

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Is this position an actual employment position or are you getting an honorarium? I think this makes a difference, too. If you are in an employed position, it is important to remember that the pastor is not your supervisor or boss. The church board is the "boss." The pastor his hired by the board just as you were. This would mean you should follow the conflict resolution path of the workplace - try to work it out with the colleague and if that does not work, then take it to the supervisor.

If the position is paid weekly honorarium rather than employment, then you don't even need to give notice if you want to leave; however, finding out what's happening there might be a better idea. Perhaps your pastor is going through some things spiritually or personally that is affecting his preaching. Or perhaps his preaching is the same but you have grown in your faith to the point you need something much deeper. Or the pastor might have some ulterior motives and is slowly turning the church into his own cult. Whatever it is, this should be examined carefully and you might want to talk with someone on the board in confidence about it, depending on what it is. Typically if a pastor is going through some stuff, he usually will bring it into the open at staff meetings where his colleagues can pray with him (in a healthy church). If it's something more sinister, you would be well off to speak with an elder or board member - that would show that you care about the people in the church being led astray. If it's your own spiritual growth, then I would say it might be best to give your notice and move on.

What does your husband think you should do?
 
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TravelerFarAwayFromHome

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i don't know what happened

but I think in every conflict it is best to ask God to examine our own heart to see if we have a part to play in the conflict

now it may very be that we do not

but i think it set ourselves free to fully take responsibility for our part

that is not to say we say what they are doing is OK, or allow them to mistreat us

but like i said, repent for our part set us free.
 
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graceandpeace

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This is my first posting on here. I am in desperate need of some Christian-to-Christian advice right now. Forgive the long detailed post, but it's necessary to describe the situation.

So, here's the deal. I am 19, newly married, and plan to be in ministry for my life's work. Taking a hiatus from school for financial reasons, but once everything gets cleared up I'll be back at it. Currently I lead worship for a very small church plant about 30 minutes from my house. Before I led there, I led for different youth groups and helped out with any praise/worship team that I could. I love it.

I have been at my current position since March of 2015. Got connected with this church through a contemporary worship night that I played at and the pastor spoke there as well. He asked me to lead worship for them on and off for about two months before officially taking me on as their "Interim Worship Leader," and once 3 months were up he asked me to stay on staff. Which I obviously did.

It started out really super great. I enjoyed the preaching, the small but contemporary atmosphere, and the way that everything was set up. It was different to anything that I'd ever seen in the church world and I liked it. On top of just really enjoying the vibe, they also paid me a flat rate of $50 a week, which was also really new to me. All worship work I'd done up to this point was volunteer-based, and I had felt that I wanted it more than the leaders and team members there wanted/needed me. It was nice. I got to do what I loved, in an environment I liked, and get paid for it - even though it wasn't very much. I didn't - and still don't - mind.

Well, about 6 months in things started to change. Our worship ministry began to grow. Instead of just me on acoustic and a djembe player, we now have a keyboardist and bassist. Like two instruments shy of a full band. When this first happened I felt like I was swimming blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back. I was very new to coordinating people twice and three times my age, and I was very uncomfortable doing so. The pastor began to give me advice on how to handle it, which was appreciated at first, and then it began to morph into something else.

He tells me to plan 5 and 6 weeks ahead (he doesn't even have sermon ideas for this far out) so that the team can be prepared and practice, and so I do that, and the week of he tells me to change everything, completely negating the point of me taking time out of my week to plan that far out. He tells us (the worship team) his plan for closing, and our cue to come in, then does something completely different leaving us clueless. We do our best playing it by ear, and then he complains to me during our weekly meetings of how awful it turned out. He tells me to get creative, and so I tell him my ideas, and he immediately dismisses them as if either a) they are stupid or b) sometimes he just acts as if I didn't say anything. Which really angers me.

I've done my best to just keep a straight face and comply to what he wants, which is difficult because he is very picky but doesn't always tell me what he wants until after I do whatever-it-is wrong. So it's a very unnerving guessing game. But all of this has leaked into Sunday morning service. Now, I don't know that the pastor has actually changed the way he preaches/talks but it sure seems that way. I no longer enjoy the sermons nor get anything from them. They feel shallow and sometimes even nonexistant on a theological scale. My husband also leaves Sunday service not feeling spiritually fed, which is even more frustrating for me.

My breaking point was the last couple of weeks. I allowed a member of the congregation to come up on stage to play tambourine in the back of all the musicians (next to the drummer, not even in the light, could barely be seen). She did a great job. The next meeting, the pastor tells me that he didn't like that, that I should have asked him first, and that (here's the kicker) he "didn't like the way she was dressed." (She was wearing jeans, UGG boots, and her church volunteer T-shirt.) This really unsettled me. His church's motto is "come as you are." If that's truly what you want to preach, should you not practice and demonstrate it also by who you allow up there???

For quite some time the pastor has been telling me that he doesn't like the look of the music stands that the bassist and keyboardists use on stage. Now, these people are grown adults that have 40-50 hour work weeks that also causes them to go out of town for the majority of their week. To be honest, I am just completely humbled that God stirred in their hearts to help out with my little worship ministry. I try to honor them and their time as much as I can. I told them that we could no longer have music stands up there, but if they needed their chord charts they could put it somewhere hidden just to glance at now and again. The pastor didn't like this either. He told me the purpose of getting rid of the stands is so that they couldn't look at their music, because it's totally not too much to ask of traveling, arguably already overworked adults (one of which whose wife currently has cancer) to memorize 4+ songs every week. I brought up an idea to him that we put the chords on the TV screen the musicians see, so that the chords wouldn't be cluttering the stage but also to inspire confidence in them to look out in the crowd every once in a while. He acted like this was the worst idea in the world. He literally told me that no church he knew of ever did something like this, when literally every larger church I've been a part of does this.

Honestly, I am fed up. What are your thoughts on how I should handle this situation? Pretty much everyone is telling me to leave. I'm just not sure how to do it properly.

Thanks and God bless.

It looks like you've already received some okay advice.

Honestly, I would write a letter of resignation & personally give the pastor notice. It doesn't have to be a confrontational conversation, just be polite & straightforward. Leaving the church sounds like a good idea.

As an aside, you're very young at 19. It's going to take years of learning & experience to show you who you want to be - including what you believe, how you practice those beliefs, etc. If you're serious about a career in ministry, start the process now of educating yourself more on Christianity, its history, etc. Of course you may already be doing that, but I say this because this choice in church strikes me as such an outlier when I think about historical or more traditionally oriented denominations.

Good luck to you.
 
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