Should a girl ask a guy to "hang out"?

[Jon_]

In my view, that is the only Biblical way to initiate. (Consider Jacob, Leah, Rachel, et al.) There are exceptions as Sascha pointed out, but the key point here is developing trust and respect between the suitor and the girl's parents. Eh, call me old fashioned.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider initiating before I know her parents. Again, there are exceptions, such as long distances, but for many practical reasons it's a general rule I'd try to follow.

God bless

I understand and empathize with both sides of the issue, but in the case of initiating a relationship, I tend be a little more liberal. In large part, it just seems to be a dying custom. For instance, when was the last time you rose form your seat when a woman entered the room? At one time this was common courtesy, but it's now so little known and even more rarely observed that it's hardly expected by all but the most critical, or in the most formal of situations.

In addition to this, girls seem to find it very serious, which is often a bad thing; and while I agree that it's a personal problem, it still doesn't necessarily behoove oneself to go out of one's way to observe this custom. After all, making an awkward situation for the sole purpose of appeasing one's own traditions seems a tad bit selfish, doesn't it?

 

[IAMSANGEL]

To b honest i agree about the guy asking the girl thing.....but i totally think its upto the inividuals. I wouldnt ask a guy but thats just me personal preferance....or maybe its coz i would be toatlly too scared! i dont trust my jugement enough! haha!

 

[Cherub8]

Jon_, I think this is significantly different than standing when a lady enters the room, or removing your hat, etc. (Though some of those customs I most certainly do follow.) A daughter is under her father's authority -- he is her leader and protector. In a sense, a father is 'standing in' until his daughter is married. So what right do we have to initiate what could be a permanent relationship, without first earning her parents' approval? If you were a father, would you be OK with a stranger getting involved with your daughter? I don't know about you, but I would most certainly not be OK with that.

After all, making an awkward situation for the sole purpose of appeasing one's own traditions seems a tad bit selfish, doesn't it?

This is not a tradition for me, it is a conviction, and there is nothing selfish about it.

Perhaps some ladies don't respect their dads enough to consider his feelings. I wouldn't be interested in that type of woman anyway. If she doesn't respect her dad, she won't respect me. (In the same way as if a son does not respect his mother, he will not respect his wife.)

There are exceptions, but within the Body of Christ exceptions are rare.

God bless

 

[Jon_]

Jon_, I think this is significantly different than standing when a lady enters the room, or removing your hat, etc. (Though some of those customs I most certainly do follow.) A daughter is under her father's authority -- he is her leader and protector. In a sense, a father is 'standing in' until his daughter is married. So what right do we have to initiate what could be a permanent relationship, without first earning her parents' approval? If you were a father, would you be OK with a stranger getting involved with your daughter? I don't know about you, but I would most certainly not be OK with that.


This is not a tradition for me, it is a conviction, and there is nothing selfish about it.

Perhaps some ladies don't respect their dads enough to consider his feelings. I wouldn't be interested in that type of woman anyway. If she doesn't respect her dad, she won't respect me. (In the same way as if a son does not respect his mother, he will not respect his wife.)

There are exceptions, but within the Body of Christ exceptions are rare.

God bless

I understand your position. It's certainly admirable that you hold this high esteem for father-daughter relationships as well. I think I'm just looking at it through a different lens.

You see? Even Reformed Christians disagree on some things from time to time! Who would've thought it!?

 

[TheDag]

In my view, that is the only Biblical way to initiate. (Consider Jacob, Leah, Rachel, et al.) There are exceptions as Sascha pointed out, but the key point here is developing trust and respect between the suitor and the girl's parents. Eh, call me old fashioned.

Cherub how do you determine if something mentioned in the bible is biblical or not? As the above quote shows you say it is the only biblical way but then you say there are exceptions. Does this mean in the case of the exceptions the people were being sinful? If so can you provide biblical support for this.

Something we all need to bear in mind is just because something is mentioned in the bible it doesn't make it biblical.

 

[Cherub8]

TheDag, look at the story of Leah and Rachel. Jacob went to great lengths in order to earn the respect and approval of their father. He worked for 7 years for one, and 7 years for the other. He respected the authority of his father-in-law, even in spite of his father-in-law being a pagan. Why do you think Jacob did that? Just to respect customs? No, I think he did it because he recognized the father as a higher authority in the matter. Or do you deny that a father has authority over his daughter? Please read all of this:

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/92b.htm

If you had a daughter, would you be OK with a stranger coming along and getting involved with your daughter, in what could be a permanent relationship? It just blows my mind how a father wouldn't be concerned. The fact of the matter is, I have no right to initiate a romantic relationship without first earning the approval of the young lady's parents. No right whatsoever.

I am convicted that courtship is the proper and Biblical way to initiate, so that is the way I will be doing it. It is simply a matter of respect.

God bless

 

[Peter_in_Christ]

Dear Friends,

You needn't complicate yourselves with interpretive head knowledge. Pray about it and allow the Lord to guide your heart through the gift of the Holy Spirit, to discern the right actions to take, God will speak to us individually. God has given us the right to choose how we live our life for Him through His Grace and not by following the law or rigorous rules imposed by men.

Personally it's fine for a lady to invite a man to an activity with the purpose of getting to know him better, and if He's interested he can persue the relationship further...

God bless,
Love in Christ

Peter

 

[TheDag]

Cherub I will read the entire article when I'm not so tired and can concentrate it but in the mean time can you please answer the questions I asked. Which was

Cherub how do you determine if something mentioned in the bible is biblical or not? As the above quote shows you say it is the only biblical way but then you say there are exceptions. Does this mean in the case of the exceptions the people were being sinful? If so can you provide biblical support for this.

I will say that we need to remember that christianity is not about rights. In biblical times slaves basically didn't have rights (one or two about how their master should treat them) and we are slaves (rom 6:15-22).

Also you mentioned that asking permission is about trust and respect. How does the woman gain the respect and trust of her partners parents or do they not matter? (thats a question from my wife). Also is it neccesary to ask for permission to court someones daughter to gain trust and respect? I don't think it is. Any comments on that?

 

[sweetmercy]

A daughter is under her father's authority -- he is her leader and protector. In a sense, a father is 'standing in' until his daughter is married."

Uhh...no. Maybe until a girl is 18, but once she's an adult, she is no longer under her "father's authority." My dad was my leader and protector when I was a kid; however, now that I'm an adult, I am my own. Well, actually, I am Christ's, but you get the picture.

(QUOTE=Cherub8)Perhaps some ladies don't respect their dads enough to consider his feelings. I wouldn't be interested in that type of woman anyway. If she doesn't respect her dad, she won't respect me. (In the same way as if a son does not respect his mother, he will not respect his wife.)"

Hmm, I feel a little insulted. How can you say I don't respect my dad just because I don't believe he is my authority figure at this point in my life? Yes, of course my dad is concerned about the kinds of guys I spend time with, but I know he also trusts my judgement on these matters. He is not my "owner." However, that in no way implies that I don't love and respect him.

Jen

 

[Cherub8]

How does the woman gain the respect and trust of her partners parents or do they not matter?

No. The Bible says a man will leave his mother and father to be with his wife. The man is the initiator; the decision belongs to him. However, if my parents expressed concern, I would carefully consider what they say because I trust their judgement.

(thats a question from my wife). Also is it neccesary to ask for permission to court someones daughter to gain trust and respect?

Friendship is the foundation of courtship, so naturally the man will have known her family for quite some time. Earning respect and trust is a process. When he wants to move onto the next level, it is appropriate to ask permission.

Uhh...no. Maybe until a girl is 18, but once she's an adult, she is no longer under her "father's authority."

If you wish to believe that, it is your business. Personally, I don't think the legal age set by government has anything to do with our family life.

Hmm, I feel a little insulted. How can you say I don't respect my dad just because I don't believe he is my authority figure at this point in my life?

You were brought up with different values. Chances are, you were taught that dating is the way to find a mate, and it's OK to date several guys in order to find the right one. Am I correct? There's nothing necessarily 'wrong' with that philosophy. In fact, it's the same thing I was taught by my parents. But God has convicted me of something much different -- much better in my opinion.

God bless

 

[Cherub8]

Cherub how do you determine if something mentioned in the bible is biblical or not?

God has used parts of the Bible to show me the circumstances in which I may or may not pursue a relationship. When I look at examples of "dating" in the Bible, I see that it is a family and community affair, not a private matter. It is personal, yes, but it is not private. This offers greater protection for both parties involved, and shows respect to higher authority -- namely, the girl's parents. This is also more realistic than serial dating, because the two people involved will get to know all sides of each other. For example, one thing I watch carefully for is how a girl interacts with her family. Does she show her mother and father respect? If she does not respect her parents, then she will not be a respectful wife.

God also used a specific relationship to teach me. If you would like to know about this, PM me and I will explain.

Does this mean in the case of the exceptions the people were being sinful?

In some cases, the exceptions are a direct result of one or both of the parents' sin. An example is a dead-beat father who took off when his daughter was young and therefore has no interest in his daughter's love life. In these circumstances, I suggest the mother or another close, older relative/friend should 'stand in' his place. I know a woman in her mid-twenties who has entrusted her dating life to older, wiser couple at her church, because her parents are not Christian and have no interest in her life. There has been at least one instance in which this arrangement has prevented heartache.

I haven't read all of this, but it seems legitimate. Tell me what you think...
http://www.tkc.com/resources/resources-pages/datingbw.html

Also, I would like you to answer a couple of my questions. If you had a daughter, would you be OK with a stranger coming along and getting involved with your daughter, in what could be a permanent relationship? If so, are you suggesting that the stranger has more say over the matter than the father who raised her?

On a final note, I will refain from using terms such as 'wrong' or 'sinful,' because I cannot read the hearts of others. This is simply the way God has instructed me individually. I believe it is His intention for all, but I won't try to force it on others.

God bless

 

[InTheFlame]

God has used parts of the Bible to show me the circumstances in which I may or may not pursue a relationship. When I look at examples of "dating" in the Bible, I see that it is a family and community affair, not a private matter. It is personal, yes, but it is not private. This offers greater protection for both parties involved, and shows respect to higher authority -- namely, the girl's parents.

You've got a good point here. Relationships should (in my opinion) be a community affair - to a point. I think the individuals involved in a relationship, whether male or female, need to be talking to other, experienced people about their relationship, about the other person, and about the problems and good points of the relationship. People who know you well (eg. parents), and possess wisdom in this area will sometimes see much more clearly on specific points. I think it's a very good idea to talk to parents (christian or non-christian) and other people in 'elder' or 'mentor' type roles to get their opinions on what's going on... and to humbly and prayerfully consider what they say. When you get down to it though, I think it's the individual's responsibility to make a choice based on careful consideration of the advice and information they've received. I do think it's dangerous to act the part of a child - for either man or woman - when it comes to choosing a lifemate. A responsible adult consults others with a teachable spirit, considers what has been said and tests it for truth, then acts based on what he or she feels to be right.

Also, I would like you to answer a couple of my questions. If you had a daughter, would you be OK with a stranger coming along and getting involved with your daughter, in what could be a permanent relationship? If so, are you suggesting that the stranger has more say over the matter than the father who raised her?

I'd think the verse 'bring up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it all of his days' applies to this situation. If I have brought her up properly and taught her to recognise her own value as God's unique creation, to recognise good and bad character traits in people, to have good boundaries and a loving nature, to respect me and value my advice and opinions... then I will have confidence in her to make a good choice, and to come to me for my opinions and advice. Likewise with a son. I don't think a bad marriage for a daughter would cause me any more heartache than the same for a son.

 

[chanis]

dude just go for it!

 

[TheDag]

Hi Cherub
I have looked at both links in posts # 68 & 73. I started going through the link in post #73 first and am only just under half way through. In response I started making notes and am up to 740 words which by the time I'm finished will be too long to post here I feel. If you like I could email it to you once I'm finished. I will however put a few general points that help sum up my problems with what Pastor Brian said without giving examples here.
Firstly he has clearly taken a number of passages out of context. When the verses are read on their own they seem to agree but when I read the verses before and after it is clearly talking about something else.
Secondly he makes too many vague generalisations. With one of them if I took what he said was true then my mother should be locked up for child abuse simply because she hugged me when I was a child (I still hug my mother when we visit). In another case I could say my friend is gay simply because he invited me to bible study. Clearly this is not the intention but it is his generalisations.
Thirdly I don't believe wearing polyester cotton clothing is a sin. One verse he used to back up his case has a verse shortly after which forbids wearing clothing of a mixed blend. If you take one of them to be right then you must accept the other. I think with those verses we need to work out how it is relevant to us today.
The statistics he used I have my doubts about some of them. This could be simply because of his definition of a phrase is different to mine. I don't think statistics are useful unless you know what questions were asked for a survey, who was asked, how many were asked, where were they asked, were they alone or in a group (in a group could make some people lie to look good in front of friends) and where they live. If you want to find that people are racist then ask people from a minority racial group in a poor area (in Australia ask the aborigines) but if you want to find that people aren't racist then ask in a area where you'll find white middle class males. Ask the question are you rich? Compare yourself to Bill Gates and the answer would be no. Compare yourself to the entire world population and most people in Australia and the US would have to answer yes

 

[TheDag]

To answer your question cherub your right. I wouldn't like my child (son or daughter) going out with a total stranger. It might be a problem in the US with the dating culture that seems to exist there but here in Australia I would raise and educate my kids in such a way where I doubt they would go out with a total stranger. They would get to know the person first and I would raise my kids in the manner intheflame mentioned. One other thing I would say is that remember leader does not mean the same thing as decision maker. A bible study leader should not be telling anyone in the group what to think. Their role is to help the others look at scripture in relation to the question and come up with an answer for themselves. So as leader of the household I don't make decisions for my wife but rather I would try and make sure she has considered everything.