" sharia patrols " harassing European citizens

[LivingWordUnity]

So in that case rather than 613 laws of the Torah being reduced to ten, it was in fact increased to thousands by virtue of the authority which Jesus gave the Church.
I'm glad we cleared that up.

How do you figure that?

 

[smaneck]

How do you figure that?

You insist that the Church has the authority to interpret Christ's Laws. At first you said Jesus reduced to the Laws to Ten, but then you insist that gay marriage, not mentioned in the Ten Commandments is prohibited as well. That brings the count up to eleven. But if Jesus gave his authority to the church then we now have have to include the thousand upon thousand pieces of canon law. That's actually what Luther was referring to when he insisted on Sola Scriptura. He was denying the authority of canon law.

 

[smaneck]

Perhaps this will help ...

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.​

That's closer to the way I heard it as a child, that Jesus reduced the Commandments to two. I don't think that is precisely correct, knowing now that Jesus was merely repeating what the Pharisees had already established, but I can at least see where the notion came from.

 

[NightHawkeye]

That's closer to the way I heard it as a child, that Jesus reduced the Commandments to two. I don't think that is precisely correct, knowing now that Jesus was merely repeating what the Pharisees had already established, but I can at least see where the notion came from.

Remember that the Pharisees should have already known this ... the very choice between life and death ... since the days of Moses.

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
​

Noting that radical Islamists are simply engaging in death cults.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

but then you insist that gay marriage, not mentioned in the Ten Commandments is prohibited as well. That brings the count up to eleven.

No it doesn't. A so-called "gay marriage" is an invention of men. It is not how God created marriage.

"Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one.What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." - Jesus (Mt 19:4-6)​

 

[LivingWordUnity]

That's closer to the way I heard it as a child, that Jesus reduced the Commandments to two. I don't think that is precisely correct, knowing now that Jesus was merely repeating what the Pharisees had already established, but I can at least see where the notion came from.

When you say you were a Christian did you only accept the parts of the Bible where Jesus is directly quoted and reject the rest? If so, most Christians consider that unorthodox. Anyway, here's what else Jesus said:

"And behold, one came up to him [Jesus], saying, 'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?' And he said to him, 'Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.' He said to him, 'Which?' And Jesus said, 'You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' The young man said to him, 'All these I have observed; what do I still lack?' Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.' When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions." - Matthew 19:16-22​

 

[smaneck]

Remember that the Pharisees should have already known this ... the very choice between life and death ... since the days of Moses.

Known what? There is nothing in that passage which says which two are the most important commandments.

Noting that radical Islamists are simply engaging in death cults.

ISIS is but that is not true of Islamists in general. However, what ISIS is doing does grow out of the apocalyptic vision of some Islamists, just like most of the Christian militias are fired up by an apocalyptic worldview.​

 

[smaneck]

When you say you were a Christian did you only accept the parts of the Bible where Jesus is directly quoted and reject the rest? If so, most Christians consider that unorthodox. Anyway, here's what else Jesus said:

"And behold, one came up to him [Jesus], saying, 'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?' And he said to him, 'Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.' He said to him, 'Which?' And Jesus said, 'You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' The young man said to him, 'All these I have observed; what do I still lack?' Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.' When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions." - Matthew 19:16-22​

He only mentions six commandments there, so it was obviously not his intent to reduce the Law from 613 to ten. And if that was his intent, then the Church got rid of it when they established all those canonical laws. As for what I accepted of the Bible, I gave more weight to what Jesus said than anything else, but certainly not exclusively. And given the fact I still have my hands and eyes I'd have to say I didn't take everything Jesus said literally either.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Known what? There is nothing in that passage which says which two are the most important commandments.

It seems pretty clear that loving the Lord is the most important. I would argue that includes a reverence for truth as well.

Extending that love to others as you would they to you is a theme through the enumerated commandments a few chapters previously.

The Levites shall recite to all the people of Israel in a loud voice:

“Cursed is anyone who makes an idol—a thing detestable to the Lord, the work of skilled hands—and sets it up in secret.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who dishonors their father or mother.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who moves their neighbor’s boundary stone.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who leads the blind astray on the road.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his father’s wife, for he dishonors his father’s bed.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who has sexual relations with any animal.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his mother-in-law.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who kills their neighbor secretly.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

“Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”​

ISIS is but that is not true of Islamists in general.

It does seem to be just as true for other radical Islamists as for ISIS, however.

However, what ISIS is doing does grow out of the apocalyptic vision of some Islamists, just like most of the Christian militias are fired up by an apocalyptic worldview.

No. Few Christian militias have engaged in any sort of aggressive campaign of killing people.

Such killing sprees have been the preferred tactic for radical Islamists though.

 

[Cearbhall]

Is there such thing as being too tolerant ? European countries are now allowing and tolerating "sharia patrols" to go out and harass europeans who are not following sharia in public ...

sharia patrol in London jailed for harassing couple holding hands in public and men drinking

I don't think I've ever seen someone shoot their own argument in the foot in post #2. Impressive.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

He only mentions six commandments there, so it was obviously not his intent to reduce the Law from 613 to ten. And if that was his intent, then the Church got rid of it when they established all those canonical laws. As for what I accepted of the Bible, I gave more weight to what Jesus said than anything else, but certainly not exclusively. And given the fact I still have my hands and eyes I'd have to say I didn't take everything Jesus said literally either.

Jesus was interrupted before he could finish listing the Ten Commandments. It comes back to the fact that Jesus established a Church and gave that Church his authority to teach on his behalf. And that Church has always held that the Ten Commandments are still in effect but not all of the 613 Mosaic laws of the Torah.

 

[smaneck]

It comes back to the fact that Jesus established a Church and gave that Church his authority to teach on his behalf. And that Church has always held that the Ten Commandments are still in effect but not all of the 613 Mosaic laws of the Torah.

Apparently you missed my point that they in fact added thousands and thousands of other laws through canonical law. If the Jews ended up with 613 laws because of their sinfulness, as you stated, then Christians must have been really sinful to get that many extra laws.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Apparently you missed my point that they in fact added thousands and thousands of other laws through canonical law. If the Jews ended up with 613 laws because of their sinfulness, as you stated, then Christians must have been really sinful to get that many extra laws.

It's true that Catholics struggle with sin, as all of us are prone to sin, so perhaps the same principle is applicable. In secular society, more laws get put on the books in proportion to the misbehavior of some. So there ends up being tons of secular laws. For example, in the United States, there are schooled tax experts to help people do their taxes because of our complicated tax laws. And tax law only accounts for a tiny piece of the entire system of civil laws. Church canon law is actually very short and simple by comparison. There are not "thousands and thousands" of canon laws. I just checked, and there appear to be 1,752.

See:
Code of Canon Law