" sharia patrols " harassing European citizens

[LivingWordUnity]

We are talking about the standard Protestant understanding, not Mormons or anything weird. That would be more like Shi'ism to Sunni Islam, not the NOI.

Which Protestant denominations are you talking about?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Yes, that would be a problem if the Shariah mediation courts operate that way. But the way these meditations work in West is that both parties have to agree to it. So if a woman doesn't not think she will get a fair shake in a Shariah court she is perfectly free to appeal to a secular court.

Yes, of course she is ...

 

[smaneck]

Which Protestant denominations are you talking about?

The ones who believe in sola gratia, sola fide and sola scriptura, beginning with Luther.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The ones who believe in sola gratia, sola fide and sola scriptura, beginning with Luther.

Lutherans don't believe that Christians have to observe 613 laws of the Torah.

 

[smaneck]

Lutherans don't believe that Christians have to observe 613 laws of the Torah.

You're obviously not paying attention if you think I said that. In fact I already told you I did not say that. Please read my previous posts again. That is not the point I challenged you on. What the NT said (or at least Paul) is that Christians are not saved by any works of the Law. Not 613, not 10. Now how many times do you need to hear this before you stop misrepresenting what I said?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

You're obviously not paying attention if you think I said that. In fact I already told you I did not say that. Please read my previous posts again. That is not the point I challenged you on. What the NT said (or at least Paul) is that Christians are not saved by any works of the Law. Not 613, not 10. Now how many times do you need to hear this before you stop misrepresenting what I said?

Are you claiming that Lutherans reject the Ten Commandments?

 

[smaneck]

Are you claiming that Lutherans reject the Ten Commandments?

<sigh?> He did not believe they were saving. And he never said Jesus reduced the Laws of the Torah to ten. Nor did he say that the number of Laws were increased to 613 because Israel worshiped the Golden Calf. He was an Old Testament scholar and would have known better.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

<sigh?> He did not believe they were saving.

I never said that Christians are saved by the law. So I don't know how that entered into this discussion. We are saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

And he never said Jesus reduced the Laws of the Torah to ten. Nor did he say that the number of Laws were increased to 613 because Israel worshiped the Golden Calf. He was an Old Testament scholar and would have known better.

If the Lutherans believe in the Ten Commandments but not more than ten then the number of God's laws they believe in is ten. And I'm pretty sure that the Lutherans believe in the Ten Commandments.

 

[smaneck]

I never said that Christians are saved by the law. So I don't know how that entered into this discussion.

What you did say is that Jesus reduced the number of Laws to just the Ten Commandments yet you can't post a shred of evidence to prove this. The only record we have of what Jesus said or did is in the Gospels.

If the Lutherans believe in the Ten Commandments but not more than ten then the number of God's laws they believe in is ten. And I'm pretty sure that the Lutherans believe in the Ten Commandments.

And I know for a fact that Luther never said Jesus reduced the number of Laws to ten.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What you did say is that Jesus reduced the number of Laws to just the Ten Commandments yet you can't post a shred of evidence to prove this. The only record we have of what Jesus said or did is in the Gospels.

And I know for a fact that Luther never said Jesus reduced the number of Laws to ten.

Christians believe in the Ten Commandments. It used to be 613 under the Old Law. So that means it was reduced down to ten.

 

[smaneck]

Christians believe in the Ten Commandments. It used to be 613 under the Old Law. So that means it was reduced down to ten.

Not by Jesus it wasn't. Otherwise, you'd be able to come up with the verse where Jesus said that.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Not by Jesus it wasn't. Otherwise, you'd be able to come up with the verse where Jesus said that.

I can show you a verse where Jesus says to listen to the Church.

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. - Jesus (Matthew 18:15-17)

After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road. Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town....He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me. - Jesus (Luke 10:1-12;16)​

 

[smaneck]

I can show you a verse where Jesus says to listen to the Church.

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. - Jesus (Matthew 18:15-17)​

Don't see the relevance. But if the Law is reduced to Ten Commandments then gay marriage is okay, right?​

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Don't see the relevance.

Jesus gave his authority to the Church. So it matters what that Church says.

But if the Law is reduced to Ten Commandments then gay marriage is okay, right?

Jesus defined marriage as being between one man and one woman. The Church has authority to speak on behalf of Jesus but not to go against him. And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to prevent the Church from falling into doctrinal error.

"Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one.What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." - Jesus (Mt 19:4-6)​

In Christian theology, marriage prefigures the marriage between Jesus and the Church. On marriage, St. Paul said, "This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the church" (Eph 5:32). But a so-called "marriage" between two men or between two women symbolizes the opposite of that relationship between Jesus and the Church. So SS'M' is actually satanic because it symbolizes the Church without Jesus.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The Commissioning of the Disciples
Matthew 28

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

 

[NightHawkeye]

Christians believe in the Ten Commandments. It used to be 613 under the Old Law. So that means it was reduced down to ten.

Perhaps this will help ...

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

...

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
​

 

[com7fy8]

We have the Two Love Commandments; Jesus clearly talked about the Two Love Commandments, in the gospels > for example, in Mark 12:28-34. So, there are more than just the "reduced-to" Ten

And this feeds to the issue about "Sharia patrols". If ones go out on "patrol", we can reach them for Jesus

 

[smaneck]

Jesus gave his authority to the Church. So it matters what that Church says.

He gave them the authority to excommunicate not put words in his mouth.

Jesus defined marriage as being between one man and one woman. The Church has authority to speak on behalf of Jesus but not to go against him. And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to prevent the Church from falling into doctrinal error.

"Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one.What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." - Jesus (Mt 19:4-6)​

He was talking about divorce, not gay marriages. In any case, your tune has just changed. now instead of reducing the 613 laws of the Torah to just ten, we have thousands and thousands of pieces of canon law by virtue of the authority Jesus supposedly gave to the church.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Here's what I quoted before except this time with added emphasis:

After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road. Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town....He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me. - Jesus (Luke 10:1-12;16)​

 

[smaneck]

Here's what I quoted before except this time with added emphasis:

After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road. Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town....He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me. - Jesus (Luke 10:1-12;16)​

So in that case rather than 613 laws of the Torah being reduced to ten, it was in fact increased to thousands by virtue of the authority which Jesus gave the Church.
I'm glad we cleared that up.