Serious question.

Sojourner1

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CriticalThought said:
Many of the lessons taught by the bible are "obsolete" in today's political climate or with our current understanding of the world. As one would expect a book that was written so long ago, though it may contain accurate bits of history the book teaches things that should be found to be completely horrible by any person. Regardless of your personal prejudice. For example:
I was going to post a link, but I am not allowed. Please excuse the long version.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

Leviticus 25:48-53 "After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him."

Does God condone slavery in the Bible?
I'm giving you a link to the best article I have ever read on the topic of Slavery in the Bible. Sorry it's a long article, but it is really good so it's well worth reading.
 
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Does God condone slavery in the Bible?
I'm giving you a link to the best article I have ever read on the topic of Slavery in the Bible. Sorry it's a long article, but it is really good so it's well worth reading.

I will give this a read. Thank you for moving this question. However, I will not be able to read this until later tonight.
 
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Catherineanne

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So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?

So, we are now in Exploring. Most excellent.

In which case, here is an answer for you; The Bible is indeed imperfect, which is why Christians are NOT called to follow it. We are called to follow Christ, who is perfect. The clue is in the name; Christian.

The Bible helps us to find God, and tells us something about him, but the Bible is not God, and is not equal in status, perfection or infallibility with God. If it were, it would say so, and it does NOT say so. Neither does it say that God dictated it word for word. The Koran may claim that, but the Bible does not.

Those who hold the belief that the Bible is infallible or inerrant do so without any Scriptural justification whatever. It is done on the basis that 'inspired by God' necessarily denotes perfect. It does not. There are only two references in the whole of Scripture to God breathing into anything; the first is Adam when he is created, to give him life, the second is Scripture, in Timothy. Therefore, on the basis of Genesis, we can safely conclude that God gives life when he breathes into something.

However, according to Genesis, Adam was created good, but it does not say that he was perfect. Therefore there is no Scriptural basis to assume that God breathing into anything results in it sharing his perfection. Far from it, if we consider that Adam proceeded to sin, even after being breathed into by God.

Therefore, it is safe to conclude that Scripture too may be regarded as good, but may not be regarded as perfect.

This means that perfection is reserved for God alone; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Only he is worthy of our worship. The Bible is a book, perhaps even the foremost of all books. But it is still only a book.

I hope that helps. :)
 
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Catherineanne

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Shouldn't you be more lax about the rules? I mean if Jesus Christ only cared that the rules of his supposed word were enforced there would be no repentance. Am I not correct?

The Lord was very concerned to ensure that the rules of his word were enforced, but he wanted them first to be written on our hearts, not on paper or even on stone. When a rule is written on our heart, then it is the heart which enforces it. And the heart cannot enforce a rule without love, mercy and compassion playing a part.

:)
 
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Thank you for that point of view. That is exactly the answer I was looking for. I was raised to be Baptist and I was taught that every lesson in the bible was something I should live by. Your point of view was most enlightening.

Also concerning your above post I was mostly trying to express that in the Christian faith you are expected to be weak or in other words mortal when it comes to following the lessons and "rules" of the faith. That is to say that we are expected to break one rule or another. And VCViking doesn't seem to feel that breaking any rules ever is good for anyone. Sometimes rules need to be broken in order for us to progress.
 
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Catherineanne

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Ok, never mind the rules then. Just keep that in mind next time I break one.

You already did, in the fundamentalist forum. You broke several rules of hospitality, or perhaps the same rule several times; one or the other.

Here you are as much of a guest as the rest of us, so you can no longer be inhospitable, which is good for everyone.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Now I know a lot of you don't agree with my point of view. I know this. And I'm not here to try and shove my point of view in your face. No, rather I want to get a serious discussion going. Personally I am an atheist. Don't bother preaching to me I only came here to ask one question. Here goes. So, it's common knowledge that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ. That is a fact. Now according to the Christian faith, people no matter who they are, are imperfect. So my question is basically this: If Jesus did not write the bible, the lessons and text contained therein are an interpretation of his word. So if the word of God was interpreted by a man, would it not be imperfect? If the bible is imperfect, why follow it? Please refrain from getting upset and lashing out at me, I am only interested in serious discussion. I would like it to be known that I do not necessarily disagree with most of the lessons that Christianity can teach us, however I feel that many of those lessons are in almost all cases taken out of context and people put their idea of "God" before the lessons that he supposedly taught. So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?

There are a lot of arguments concerning the notion of biblical inerrancy, I'll let those who believe in it to defend and argue their case.

Since biblical inerrancy isn't part of my theological vocabulary, I'm going to approach this perhaps differently:

The Bible isn't intended as an inerrant document that forms the basis of Christian faith. The Bible is not the Christian version of the Qur'an.

What I mean by that is that in Islam the Qur'an is God's Revelation, given explicitly from God, through Gabriel, to Muhammad who relayed it to the people and which was recorded down. It is, as such, a holistic document that is presented as God's Word and Revelation to humanity.

That's not the Bible, at least not historically. The Bible is a collection of disparate texts written by different people at different periods of history in different places. All these different texts are of differing literary genres. We have, e.g., the Books of Chronicles which presents an historical unfolding of Israel's history; we have the the Psalms, a collection of song and poetry; we have Proverbs, a collection of wisdom sayings; we have Job, a philosophical poem asking about the problem of suffering; we have the Gospels, accounts of the Jesus Story integral to the Christian community/communities; we have apocalyptic material such as Daniel and the Revelation of St. John; we have the Prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah, calling the People of God to repentance and faithfulness; we have epistles, letters to church communities and individuals exhorting them about specific problems and situations.

The Bible evolved, it developed over a period of time. Specifically it evolved in the context of community and liturgy. Like Jews, Christians gathered together for worship which included prayer, song, and readings from Sacred Scripture. Christian communities not only used Jewish Scripture (the Law, Prophets and Writings), but also began to read the letters of the Apostles. St. Paul may have written his Epistle to the Romans for the Christians in Rome, but it didn't take long for the letter to be copied and sent to other communities, read aloud. The reading of these specifically Christian writings was joined to the reading of the Law and Prophets, and were thus also called Holy Scripture.

Then the Church, as a whole, had to deal with which of these writings should be read and which shouldn't be read. That was the essential question behind the Biblical Canon--what do we read during worship for the exhortation of God's people? Lucky for us we can actually see this conversation happening in the writings of early Christians.

Sometime in the 2nd century an anonymous author wrote about what books were being received in the churches, we call it the Muratorian Fragment, and it's usually dated to the last quarter of the 2nd century (c. 170-200 CE) with some dating it as early as the Bar Kochba Revolt in 135 CE, the Fragment lists accepted books as follows (an English translation of the Fragment can be found here):

The Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Paul's Epistles to the Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians; Paul's Pastoral Epistles to Philemon, Titus and Timothy; An Epistle Jude, Two Epistles from St. John; the Book of Wisdom [of Solomon]; The Apocalypse of St. John and the Apocalypse of St. Peter (with some regarding Peter as spurious); The Shepherd of Hermas;

Rejected are the spurious and forged epistles claiming to be from Paul to the Laodiceans and the Alexandrians.

Not mentioned: The Third Epistle of John, the two Epistles of Peter, the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Epistle of James.

Through time the Canon became more refined, a process that was quite fluid and dynamic. Until the Council of Trent in the 16th century in response to the Protestant Reformation there had not been an attempt at a formal, final, definition of the entire Canon.

Even as late as the 14th century, when John Wycliffe made his translation of the Bible into English, he included (from the Latin Vulgate) the Epistle to the Laodiceans. The Revelation/Apocalypse of St. John was not fully accepted in the Christian East until the last quarter of the first millennium, with St. John Damascus defending its full inclusion.

The Bible, therefore, is quite messy. Even today Christians aren't in full agreement over what exactly constitutes the Biblical Canon (i.e. do we accept the Deuterocanonicals (whether in full or in part) or don't we?).

The whole point of the Bible, however, was as liturgical texts: Books to be read in the liturgy of gathered Christian worshipers to receive exhortation, teaching, and be built up in their faith in Christ.

In Christianity God's Revelation is not seen as being delivered to us in a book (as in Islam), but rather God's Revelation has been delivered to us as a Person. God's Word became flesh, Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's Revelation, God's Divine Word.

The Bible points us to Christ. It directs us toward Jesus. We believe that this collection of literature is uniquely inspired by God, and that because of this God can speak to us, and what He speaks is His Word (Jesus); and therefore we, in faith, recognize one Word or Utterance, one Sacred Subject of the whole of Holy Scripture: that Word, Utterance and Subject being Jesus Christ Himself.

We don't need a "perfect Bible", a perfect book, for this to hold true. All we need is that God is active speaking to us in these books, and speaking Christ to us, directing us to Jesus Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith. God is perfectly capable of doing this through an imperfect medium. Even in Biblical history we see a grand narrative of God working through fragile, imperfect, faltering human beings: Through Abraham, Moses, David and St. Paul as some obvious examples.

The Biblical narrative continually speaks of God working with messy people and working through messy people to accomplish His purposes and to speak His Word to them. Why should it be any different with this beautiful and often messy tapestry of Holy Scripture which Christians call the Bible?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Catherineanne

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Thank you for that point of view. That is exactly the answer I was looking for. I was raised to be Baptist and I was taught that every lesson in the bible was something I should live by. Your point of view was most enlightening.

Yes, certainly we ought to live by every lesson in the Bible, but the problem of interpretation remains. The Bible does not interpret itself.

Also concerning your above post I was mostly trying to express that in the Christian faith you are expected to be weak or in other words mortal when it comes to following the lessons and "rules" of the faith. That is to say that we are expected to break one rule or another. And VCViking doesn't seem to feel that breaking any rules ever is good for anyone. Sometimes rules need to be broken in order for us to progress.

It really depends on the rule, and the reason for breaking it. If the reason is charity, then in our faith that generally is allowed - not always, but very often. If the reason is simply that we can't be bothered, then that is not sufficient.

None of us is capable of being perfect all the time, which is why in my own tradition we have a very clear focus on confession and absolution. I find this amazingly helpful in preventing me from falling into sin; just knowing that I don't just have to kneel down, tell God and put it behind me, but that for serious sins I am obliged to request to see Father for confession and tell him is enough to deter me from the majority of things that I would otherwise not be too troubled by. It doesn't mean I can go without erring at all, but it certainly helps. Confessing to God is easy. Confessing to a priest is one of the hardest things I ever have to do, and also one of the most sublime experiences; afterwards it is like walking in the Garden of Eden for a couple of hours, until I slip again.

And in relation to what we do, it is essential that we make mistakes, becasue this is the only way we can learn, and grow, whether in relation to our work or our faith. I don't think we should be too afraid of that.
 
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Well thank you all for having this discussion with me. I am now, however going to take my leave. I do appreciate the new insight into the beliefs of all of you. Not that I'm sure it matters, but I am leaving an atheist. As for VCViking; you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And maybe you should consider that when Jesus Christ was inhospitable perhaps he was experiencing what might be called just anger. You seem to be directionless and self-centered with your comments. I did not appreciate the things that you said and you did nothing to contribute to this debate. Goodbye everyone and again thank you for discussing with me.
 
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golgotha61

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Now I know a lot of you don't agree with my point of view. I know this. And I'm not here to try and shove my point of view in your face. No, rather I want to get a serious discussion going. Personally I am an atheist. Don't bother preaching to me I only came here to ask one question. Here goes. So, it's common knowledge that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ. That is a fact. Now according to the Christian faith, people no matter who they are, are imperfect. So my question is basically this: If Jesus did not write the bible, the lessons and text contained therein are an interpretation of his word. So if the word of God was interpreted by a man, would it not be imperfect? If the bible is imperfect, why follow it? Please refrain from getting upset and lashing out at me, I am only interested in serious discussion. I would like it to be known that I do not necessarily disagree with most of the lessons that Christianity can teach us, however I feel that many of those lessons are in almost all cases taken out of context and people put their idea of "God" before the lessons that he supposedly taught. So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?


I don't know if you are still around since in the last post you were leaving, but in case you are still here: I am one who supports the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible. I will give you five elements that help define inerrancy: (1) the divine element—God the Holy Spirit superintended the writers, ensuring the accuracy of the writing; (2) the human element—human authors wrote according to their individual styles and personalities; (3) the result of the divine-human authorship is the recording of God’s truth without error; (4) inspiration extends to the selection of words by the writers; (5) inspiration relates to the original manuscripts(The Moody Handbook of Theology).

Ryrie provides a syllogism for logically concluding the biblical teaching of inerrancy: “God is true (Rom. 3:4http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ro+3:4); the Scriptures were breathed out by God (2 Tim. 3:16http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=2Ti+3:16); therefore, the Scriptures are true (since they came from the breath of God who is true).”

Also, I believe one of the reasons Christ calls us to peace is for the spreading of the Gospel, how can I make the "good news" good if I am angry and confrontational?
 
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I am in fact still here. Even after my "last post" I began reading in the "exploring Christianity" section and noticed this was bumped. Anyway, you say you support the idea that the bible is perfect? Would you mind giving me your opinion on the points I have raised thus far?
 
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golgotha61

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I am in fact still here. Even after my "last post" I began reading in the "exploring Christianity" section and noticed this was bumped. Anyway, you say you support the idea that the bible is perfect? Would you mind giving me your opinion on the points I have raised thus far?

Sure, I would like that. If you would be so kind as to give me the most pressing for you, one at a time so that we may discuss them in a systematic fashion. I really desire for you to have a sound explanation so you can get a fuller understanding. Perhaps not an understanding that would change you mind but I would at least like to give you a clear picture of what I believe and understand so that you can make an informed conclusion.
 
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Well let's start out with this idea. The bible states that everyone has free will. The bible also states that God knows everything you can or will ever do. If God already knows exactly what we are going to do no matter what, how does this count as free will? This seems to be a large inconsistency to me.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well let's start out with this idea. The bible states that everyone has free will. The bible also states that God knows everything you can or will ever do. If God already knows exactly what we are going to do no matter what, how does this count as free will? This seems to be a large inconsistency to me.

Without getting into the theological complications concerning the issue of the freedom or bondage of the will (it's a pretty huge theological topic in Protestantism's history and the Reformation itself); this question seems to be far more about a philosophical model of "free will", i.e. not fatalism/determinism.

As such the question needs to be approached by first discarding any notion of God as simply another actor in space-time who just happens to have the super ability to look into the future.

That is, of course, difficult to do, but once gives up this idea it becomes much easier to talk about the atemporality of God and what more traditional [Christian] theists are actually talking about.

Rather than saying "God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow", think of it like this: Tomorrow, when I do whatever it is I might do, God observes it in that moment. That moment, however is equal with all moments in space-time and are all observed by God in His eternal now.

Imagine taking a line drawn:

---------------------------------

You can observe every point along that line instantaneously.

Then let's put some "events" along a line:

----X-------Y------Z---

That you can see Z at the same time as X does not make Z predetermined.

That God is as much present in my present as in my tomorrow does not make my choices tomorrow predetermined, God is as much in my tomorrow "seeing" what I do as I do it as He is now in my present "seeing" what I'm doing right now.

God is not in my present looking at my tomorrow; but is simultaneously present in my tomorrow just as much as my present. God sees Z just as much as He sees Y and X, simultaneously. This is the timelessness or atemporality of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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golgotha61

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Well let's start out with this idea. The bible states that everyone has free will. The bible also states that God knows everything you can or will ever do. If God already knows exactly what we are going to do no matter what, how does this count as free will? This seems to be a large inconsistency to me.

I believe you are referring to election and predestination. Election is an activity on God’s side of salvation that took place in eternity past (Eph. 1:4). This is somewhat in line with what ViaCrucis has referenced.


Predestination is also a part of God’s side of salvation in that He has marked out beforehand those whom He has elected. The word predestination occurs six times in the New Testament (Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11). This is also accomplished in eternity past.


As I understand it, this is accomplished because God knows what we will choose to do, accept His Gospel or reject it. The ability to choose and the responsibility of choice are never abrogated since God simply knows what we will choose, He does not choose for us nor does He force us to believe.



I know a college professor of Old Testament at Moody Bible Institute who believes God’s knowledge of our choices is a prescient foreknowledge, meaning God’s election is based on His omniscience. He chooses based on what He knows will happen. Others tend to ascribe the foreknowledge to a “relational” foreknowledge, meaning God knows the people as opposed to the facts. Relational means God has a relationship with us before we even exist. I prefer the former view, prescient foreknowledge.

The idea of election and predestination are never used as an excuse in the Scriptures for man being lost. Man is responsible for his choices. The emphasis of Scripture is that man is lost because he refuses to believe the Gospel. It is not that God forces us to choose to believe, but rather He knows who will accept His Gospel and who will not.

As an example: My son hated brussels sprouts when he was very young. I know this because of what I experienced with him when he tried them once and almost gagged on them. From that time on, I never offered them to him since I knew what he would do: he would reject them. This knowledge is based on a relationship with him previously. I could not have known any other way since I have no omniscient ability. Never the less, I never offered the sprouts to him again since I knew the outcome. He still had the ability to choose but I never gave him the opportunity since I already knew what his choice would be.
 
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Now I know a lot of you don't agree with my point of view. I know this. And I'm not here to try and shove my point of view in your face. No, rather I want to get a serious discussion going. Personally I am an atheist. Don't bother preaching to me I only came here to ask one question. Here goes. So, it's common knowledge that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ. That is a fact. Now according to the Christian faith, people no matter who they are, are imperfect. So my question is basically this: If Jesus did not write the bible, the lessons and text contained therein are an interpretation of his word. So if the word of God was interpreted by a man, would it not be imperfect? If the bible is imperfect, why follow it? Please refrain from getting upset and lashing out at me, I am only interested in serious discussion. I would like it to be known that I do not necessarily disagree with most of the lessons that Christianity can teach us, however I feel that many of those lessons are in almost all cases taken out of context and people put their idea of "God" before the lessons that he supposedly taught. So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?

If we had free will, this would be concern. However, if you'd refer to the link in my signature, you'd see that the Bible is very much in favor of determinism set by God. Scripture is written by people, yes, but God was in charge of every stroke of their pens. They wrote the words He wanted them to write, partially by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and partially from the circumstances and personalities given to them by God to use.
 
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Catherineanne

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If we had free will, this would be concern. However, if you'd refer to the link in my signature, you'd see that the Bible is very much in favor of determinism set by God. Scripture is written by people, yes, but God was in charge of every stroke of their pens. They wrote the words He wanted them to write, partially by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and partially from the circumstances and personalities given to them by God to use.

Regardless of what your signature has to say, free will is a central tenet of Christianity. Man is free to sin, and free to return to God.

If you replace that with determinism, then you make a nonsense of the whole Incarnation. You can do that if you want, but it is very difficult to see how the resulting belief could be regarded as Christian.

God did not dictate the Bible.
 
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Catherineanne

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Well let's start out with this idea. The bible states that everyone has free will. The bible also states that God knows everything you can or will ever do. If God already knows exactly what we are going to do no matter what, how does this count as free will? This seems to be a large inconsistency to me.

We are in time. God is not.

We are free at any given moment to choose how to behave. God is outside time, and he can see past, present and future; he can see what choice we make. But we are still free to either make it or not.
 
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Albion

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Regardless of what your signature has to say, free will is a central tenet of Christianity. Man is free to sin, and free to return to God.

Oh, it certainly is not that. Christianity is divided on this matter and it doesn't interfere with the real basics of the faith--the nature of God, the incarnation, the vicarious atonement, the resurrection, etc.

If you replace that with determinism

If you replace that with determinism, sure. However, few believers do that; many more are believers in election.
 
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GrayAngel

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Regardless of what your signature has to say, free will is a central tenet of Christianity. Man is free to sin, and free to return to God.

If you replace that with determinism, then you make a nonsense of the whole Incarnation. You can do that if you want, but it is very difficult to see how the resulting belief could be regarded as Christian.

God did not dictate the Bible.

Looks like somebody needs to review the rules for Exploring Christianity sub-forum. There is no interaction allow except between OP and Christian repliers. Your comment was not worth breaking the rules for. I've heard such baseless opinions countless times, but I don't care about your opinions. I care about what the Bible teaches. And if you care too, you'll actually read the verses in the signature and think about what they're saying rather than dismissing them mindlessly.
 
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