Serious question.

[CriticalThought]

Now I know a lot of you don't agree with my point of view. I know this. And I'm not here to try and shove my point of view in your face. No, rather I want to get a serious discussion going. Personally I am an atheist. Don't bother preaching to me I only came here to ask one question. Here goes. So, it's common knowledge that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ. That is a fact. Now according to the Christian faith, people no matter who they are, are imperfect. So my question is basically this: If Jesus did not write the bible, the lessons and text contained therein are an interpretation of his word. So if the word of God was interpreted by a man, would it not be imperfect? If the bible is imperfect, why follow it? Please refrain from getting upset and lashing out at me, I am only interested in serious discussion. I would like it to be known that I do not necessarily disagree with most of the lessons that Christianity can teach us, however I feel that many of those lessons are in almost all cases taken out of context and people put their idea of "God" before the lessons that he supposedly taught. So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?

 

[Albion]

If Jesus did not write the bible, the lessons and text contained therein are an interpretation of his word. So if the word of God was interpreted by a man, would it not be imperfect?

The interpretation might be. That doesn't make the word itself imperfect.

If the bible is imperfect

You haven't shown us any reason to think the Bible is imperfect, just that some people, who are imperfect, might misread or misunderstand it.

I would like it to be known that I do not necessarily disagree with most of the lessons that Christianity can teach us, however I feel that many of those lessons are in almost all cases taken out of context and people put their idea of "God" before the lessons that he supposedly taught.

Maybe some do.

So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?

Because there is good reason to believe that he inspired humans to write what he was revealing to us through them...just as the Bible itself explains the process.

 

[CriticalThought]

How can you be so certain that the word of god was not misrepresented by these "profits?"

Again I would like to state that I'm not arguing that there is good moral code at the base of every religion, however, what makes you so certain that the text is perfect? You haven't disproved my argument either.

Edit: Another point I would like to bring up is that if the text is in fact holy. That means that it is perfect. If it is perfect it would require no revision over any period of time. This is not the case as many of the lessons in the bible do not fit with today's political climate which is understandable. However, if this text were holy it should require no revision and the lessons should be perfect and timeless.

 

[Albion]

How can you be so certain that the word of god was not misrepresented by these "profits?"

Do you mean "prophets?" If so, most of the Bible was not written as prophesy or by prophets. The Gospels, for instance, were written by Apostles of Jesus who were otherwise ordinary men.

That aside, we are not asking anyone to buy a pig in a poke with the Bible. But although it is the most-criticised, doubted, and second-guessed book ever written, it has stood up to all the critics. There is a consistency to the prophesies and history contained in it, although it was written by different men over many centuries, the historical details contained in it have been verified, the dates and events have been shown to be accurate or at least reasonable, and so on. It has shown a high probability of being what it says it is.

Edit: Another point I would like to bring up is that if the text is in fact holy. That means that it is perfect. If it is perfect it would require no revision over any period of time.

That's true so far as the original is concerned. But we do not read that language today, so the issue you are referring to is about translations, meanings of idioms and expressions we aren't familiar with anymore, etc. There's no reason to question the original revelation because of these considerations.

However, if this text were holy it should require no revision and the lessons should be perfect and timeless.

Most of us think that they are indeed timeless and applicable to us today no less than they were in the past. The Good Shepherd, the Wise and Foolish Virgins, the Prodigal Son, are all timeless.

 

[CriticalThought]

Many of the lessons taught by the bible are "obsolete" in today's political climate or with our current understanding of the world. As one would expect a book that was written so long ago, though it may contain accurate bits of history the book teaches things that should be found to be completely horrible by any person. Regardless of your personal prejudice. For example:
I was going to post a link, but I am not allowed. Please excuse the long version.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

Leviticus 25:48-53 "After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him."



This website (wasn't allowed to post links but there are several more) quotes several verses from the bible condoning slavery. Lessons like this one should rightfully be found appalling. Not only because of how slaves were treated, they were slaves of course, but because Christ taught to be compassionate and love thy neighbor. Doesn't this seem inconsistent? I was raised by and around Christians but every single one of them just dropped these topics from the lessons they taught because they knew these lessons didn't fit with how we see the world today. So if the bible is perfect, why then do you not follow it exactly as it was written? If the bible is perfect, why are so many lessons that are written in the bible dropped and forgotten? Is it because an ancient text cannot possibly know how the rest of the world's political climate might evolve over centuries? I think so. In your first post you said: "Because there is good reason to believe that he inspired humans to write what he was revealing to us through them...just as the Bible itself explains the process." But you offer no evidence. Show me why there is good reason to believe. I understand that many of the lessons in the bible are very good morals to live by and some are in fact timeless. However, why is so much of it inconsistent?

Edit: I have recently been informed of some very bad news (it's personal) and will not be able to complete this argument without bias. I apologize for interrupting your life.

 

[VCViking]

Personally I am an atheist. Don't bother preaching to me I only came here to ask one question.

If you don't want ot be preached to, don't come here for we are commanded to preach the Gospel,




"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures..."

"The Gospel is called the ‘good news’ because it addresses the most serious problem that you and I have as human beings, and that problem is simply this: God is holy and He is just, and I’m not. And at the end of my life, I’m going to stand before a just and holy God, and I’ll be judged. And I’ll be judged either on the basis of my own righteousness – or lack of it – or the righteousness of another. The good news of the Gospel is that Jesus lived a life of perfect righteousness, of perfect obedience to God, not for His own well being but for His people. He has done for me what I couldn’t possibly do for myself. But not only has He lived that life of perfect obedience, He offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice to satisfy the justice and the righteousness of God.


[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]If you were to die today, would you go to Heaven? Here's a quick test. Have you ever told a lie, stolen anything, or used God's name in vain? Jesus said if you look at someone with lust you have committed adultery with them in your heart. Have you looked with lust? Will you be guilty on Judgment Day? If you have done those things God sees you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. The Bible warns that if you are guilty, God's wrath will be upon you and you will end up in Hell and then be cast into the Lake of Fire because of your rebellion and sin. But that's not God's will. He sent His Son to suffer and die on the cross for you. Jesus took your punishment upon Himself. Jesus bore your sin. The sin of God's people and all the fierce wrath of God that should fall upon you, fell on His only begotten Son, Jesus. -"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Then He rose from the dead and defeated death. Please dear friend, ask yourself if you were to die today, where would you spend eternity, Heaven or Hell? Please repent (turn from sin) today and trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior and God will grant you everlasting life. Please, repent and believe the Gospel before it's too late. God Bless."
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[VCViking]

Here goes. So, it's common knowledge that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ...So if the word of God...

That is your first problem, God is the author of the Bible and Jesus is God. And you even refer to it as the word of God.


Second problem is you are not able to understand the Bible,

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


Therefore, before troubling yourself any further,

Repent and trust Christ as your Lord and Savior, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." - Jesus

 

[Albion]

nt

 

[dollarsbill]

The Bible is the 'words of God'!!!

 

[Sojourner1]

Edit: I have recently been informed of some very bad news (it's personal) and will not be able to complete this argument without bias. I apologize for interrupting your life.

I'm sorry. I hope everything works our alright with the situation and you can come back and discuss this topic with us. You might want to start a thread in the Exploring Christianity forum to find out more about what Christians believe.

 

[Simonline]

Now I know a lot of you don't agree with my point of view. I know this. And I'm not here to try and shove my point of view in your face. No, rather I want to get a serious discussion going. Personally I am an atheist. Don't bother preaching to me I only came here to ask one question. Here goes. So, it's common knowledge that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ. That is a fact.

I strongly recomend that you get a good modern translation of the Bible and look up each of the Biblical references as you work your way through my replies to your post. The Biblical references are really integral to my arguments. Thanks.

Actually, it isn't a fact at all. The Bible declares that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2Tim.3:16; 2Pet.1:20-21) in other words the Bible has a Divine author as well as multiple human authors.

Now, if the Messiah/Christ is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator as the Scriptures themselves declare (Isa.43:10-13; Matt.1:23; Rom.9:5; Titus.2:13; Heb.1:8-12 etc.) then it cannot be true to say that the Messiah/Christ is not the author of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures?! He may not be a human author of the Scriptures but if He is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator YHWH (1Jn.4:1-3) then as the discarnate Divine Creator Himself (Jn.4:24) He most certainly is the author (Jn.1:1; 1:14; 14:6; 17:17)?!

Now according to the Christian faith, people no matter who they are, are imperfect.

Again, not true. The Judeo-Christian faith teaches that as a result of Adam's sin (Gen.3) all Mankind is by nature inherently sinful (Rom.3:9-18,23(a)) but there is an exception to this rule and that exception is the Messiah/Christ. Since He is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator He has not been included 'in Adam' and so, unlike the rest of Mankind, was not born with an imparted sinful nature (Adam's rebellious nature having been legally imputed and spiritually imparted to all his offspring). The Messiah/Christ lived a perfect righteous life before God and voluntarily sacrificed that perfect life for His sinful Creation (Matt.26:53-54; Jn.1:29; Jn.10:17-18; 1Jn.2:2).

So my question is basically this: If Jesus did not write the bible, the lessons and text contained therein are an interpretation of his word.

If the Divine Creator Himself did not co-author the Judeo-Christian Scriptures then yes, those 'scriptures' would be nothing more than a mere human 'interpretation' (impudent conjectural assumption more like?) of the Divine Word but since the Divine Creator has co-authored the Judeo-Christian Scriptures then that is simply not the case.

So if the word of God was interpreted by a man, would it not be imperfect?

Yes but the original Scriptures in their original languages (but not any subsequent translations into different languages) are not merely a human interpretation. They are the very Word of God communicated through men by Divine inspiration.

If the bible is imperfect, why follow it?

The Bible in its original languages isn't imperfect (though subsequent translations into different languages may well be). The history and influence of Judeo-Christianity upon the world (indeed human history is still focused around the life of the Messiah/Christ as the human incarnation of God - Before Christ and Anno Domini (In the year of our Lord - a reference to the amount of time it is taking to reach His Second Advent when He will return - as the Scriptures prophesy) is a testimony to the utter truthfulness of the Judeo-Christian faith itself (rather than the lives of those who claim to represent it) over and above all other faiths including that of atheism.

Please refrain from getting upset and lashing out at me, I am only interested in serious discussion.

Why would I do that (2Pet.3:15)? Your question deserves a serious answer and so that is what I am giving you.

I would like it to be known that I do not necessarily disagree with most of the lessons that Christianity can teach us, however I feel that many of those lessons are in almost all cases taken out of context and people put their idea of "God" before the lessons that he supposedly taught.

If you think that Judeo-Christianity is merely a moral code of conduct for life then you have missed the point completely. Judeo-Christianity is not about man making himself right with God on the basis of his own moral conduct. This is because, as a result of the Fall (Gen.3), man is no longer morally perfect and therefore incapable of making himself morally perfect. Since God by both Nature and Character is morally Perfect then His Nature and Character abhors anything that is morally imperfect and it is for this reason that the sinful Creation is destined for everlasting Perdition (Rom.3:23; 6:23(a)).

However, God is Love (1Jn.4:8) and because of this He does not want His Creation to be consigned forever into Perdition so He has made a way for His fallen Creation to be redeemed from the catastrophic curse of sin but to satisfy God's perfect sense of justice this involves God sacrificing Himself to atone for the sin of His fallen Creation. It is for this reason that God Himself has incarnated as a man (because God as God is incapable of experiencing death) and has sacrificed Himself upon the cross giving His Life in order to redeem His Sinful Creation (Acts.20:28(b)); Heb.9:22).

It is a living and continuous faith (Isa.7:9(b); Hab.2:4; Rom.1:16-17) in God and in His own sacrifice of Himself through His Messiah/Christ (Acts.20:28(b)) that is the sole basis of the Judeo-Christian faith and not in any assumed ability on our part to live a 'good' or 'moral' life (Eph.2:8-10). The righteous works of the believer are the by-product of living an authentic life of faith (Jas.2:14-26). Any works that are not based on true faith are anathema to God. He absolutely loathes them with every fibre of His Being (Isa.64:6; Jn.3:31).

So let's get some serious discussion in here. Why do you follow the bible if it was not written directly by God?

"The fool has said in his heart 'There is no God!'" Psalm 14:1

Simonline.

 

[CriticalThought]

That is your first problem, God is the author of the Bible and Jesus is God. And you even refer to it as the word of God.

First off, thank you for your reply. Second, I was saying that the bible is supposedly the word of god, written by man. I only referred to it as the "Word of God" in a hypothetical sense. And
third telling me "What my problem is" sounds a little personal to me. I would like to refrain from this argument getting personal. I do not believe that any of you are bad people and I do not wish to insult you or otherwise degrade you as individuals or believers in the Christian faith.

I'm sorry. I hope everything works our alright with the situation and you can come back and discuss this topic with us. You might want to start a thread in the "Exploring Christianity" forum to find out more about what Christians believe.

Thank you for your kind words. I have come to terms with my loss and I do believe I will be able to contribute to this debate without bias once again. Also if a mod wants to move this thread feel free. I do not wish to start another one right now just because we have some good discussion going here.

As for Simonline I did not want to pick apart your entire post, but I do agree with a few points. Namely that I have not read the bible in the language it was written in originally. And perhaps many things that were initially written in the text did not translate well. That is a possibility. I wonder though, if all the text in the bible (let's just leave out the parts where Jesus Christ supposedly did have a direct influence) was inspired by God there should be no contradiction in the text itself. And some lessons don't line up with one-another. Christ teaches compassion and yet people are outcast for their sins. If Christ wanted us to love our neighbors why were so many people killed in the name of God? Let's use Sodom and Gomorra (sp?) as an example. If we are to be compassionate and if we are to forgive and try and teach others to live in ways without sin -- not to be confused with doing so in a violent fashion. Why was that city destroyed? If all sin is equal in the eyes of God, why would he kill an entire city just because they were sinners? There cannot possibly be a civilization that is beyond God's help according to Christianity. If there were our civilization today would also be smited. I personally find it interesting that all of these works come from a time when we did not know anything about mental illness. People who suffer epilepsy often claim to hear the voices of God or angels. People who are schizophrenic hallucinate frequently and see the world in a very different way than you or I may. Recent discoveries in the field of psychology suggest that by stimulating the temporal lobe in the brain with electromagnetic pulses the sensation of "feeling God" or "God phenomena" can be re-created in a laboratory environment. It is unclear what other external forces may influence this. Our earth is basically one giant magnetic field and some places are more electromagnetic than others. Is it possible that certain geographical locations can possibly stimulate the temporal lobe in the brain? Places such as Mecca for example; many people who visit mecca claim to have very meaningful religious experiences. There is certainly nothing wrong with living your life as the bible asks one to, however I personally believe that living life without ever asking questions is a very unfulfilling.

 

[Catherineanne]

Edit: I have recently been informed of some very bad news (it's personal) and will not be able to complete this argument without bias. I apologize for interrupting your life.

I am sorry you have had some bad news; that must be very difficult for you.

God be with you, CT.

 

[Catherineanne]

Also to the above poster, thank you for your kindness, it is appreciated.

You are more than welcome.

And there are other parts of the forum where you might get a more rounded response to your question, when you feel ready to ask it again. I am not a fundamentalist, but an Anglo Catholic (or perhaps here I ought to say, 'so called Anglo Catholic'), and any answer I give in this part of the Forum would risk contradicting some fundamentalist belief or other. That wouldn't particularly bother me in itself; I have done that before now, and no doubt will do so again, but it wouldn't be good manners. In any case, your personal situation takes priority; people before dogma every time.

All I will say, for now, is that Christians will tend to accept that the whole Bible is inspired by God (written in Timothy; by extension applied to the whole of Scripture), but nowhere does the Bible itself define exactly what is denoted by that term, and so this is left to the traditions of each particular church to determine. Fundamentalist churches will tend to define, 'inspired by God' to mean something very close to inerrant and infallible. There is no Biblical justification for that interpretation; it is an assumption, perhaps made on the basis that if God inspires something it must be close to perfect; that is certainly one way of looking at it. However, apostolics do not share it, and as I am a member of an apostolic church I don't share it; ironically enough on the basis that it is not found in Scripture. To be clear; the Bible is inspired by God, but it does not tell us what this denotes; we are left to interpret this according to our Church tradition.

I hope I have been fair to both points of view.

So, maybe in some other place? Meanwhile, take care, and give yourself time. Whatever the loss was, I suspect it won't be overcome quite as easily as you think.

 

[CriticalThought]

Since I was asked in a respectful manner, I will oblige. To all of you who answered me, take care in your respective walks of life. I wish you all peace and love.

There was no respect in your answer. I'm not sure if you are aware but you come across as very conceded and I do not wish to deal with you. I was respectful toward everyone else's beliefs. I used to have to tell myself this all the time, maybe it could benefit you: "If you are the only one in a room with a problem. You ARE the problem."

 

[VCViking]

"If you are the only one in a room with a problem. You ARE the problem."

The Bible disagrees and that is what matters.

 

[CriticalThought]

Then you are free to live your life without showing respect to others. This is my final post, so I don't actually care if you get the last word in here. I offer one last piece of advice. You will get much farther if you respect other's points of view instead of supplementing your own.

 

[Sojourner1]

Then you are free to live your life without showing respect to others. This is my final post, so I don't actually care if you get the last word in here. I offer one last piece of advice. You will get much farther if you respect other's points of view instead of supplementing your own.

I am going to move this thread to the Exploring Christianity forum so stick around and post with some members there okay.

 

[Sojourner1]

Mod Hat On​

​

​

Thread has been moved to the Exploring Christianity Forum.


Mod Hat Off​

 

[Sojourner1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that section is for questions only and not for debates. He clearly stated he wants to debate.

He has a question about Christianity that he wants to discuss. Let's relax a bit and try to answer his questions. There are lots of Christians who post in this forum who would love to sit down and have a chat with him.