Serbia and holocausts, etc.

[buzuxi02]

I can't imagine all those Jewish people living in Israel saying, "well, if I could bring grandpa and grandma back to life, my three dead brothers, my cousin, and my mom and dad all back to life, I'd let them stay dead because this State of Israel sure was worth it!"

Well thats why I said 60 years removed from the event. I don't expect one generation removed from those horrors to think that.

Or can you imagine the victims of 911 saying, "I'm glad my husband died in tower one that day when the plane hit him because thanks to that bombing we finally caught Bin Laden like a decade later plus we got a more robust homeland security out of it along with a safer Iraq!"

Completely different thing, there will never be any benefits to anyone in the future.

Can you imagine all those Russians after World War II saying, "wow, I'm glad the Nazis pulverized Leningrad and crushed six hundred thousand plus of our comrades and killed my wife and my daughter! Thanks to that whole thing, we won the war and got East Germany and some superb expansion for communism! Woo-hoo!"

Same as above, not the immediate generation that lived through it, but those removed by a couple of generation.

If you go to the financial district of manhattan, and meet those who makes millions of dollars and are living the highlife, many are bleeding hearts, they have remorse over the Indians being pushed out, some may even suffer guilt.

But would they go back in time and board a ship from Ellis Island to the old world to tend the fields? Is there even any successful immigrant that thinks they should personally pay reparations to Indians or slaves or that they owe them anything at all? No, the reason why millions of immigrants came here is precisely because that ruthlessness of old created this land of opportunity.

Do you think the Turks are crying for expelling the Christians from Turkey or Cyprus? Believe me if a Cypriot refugee went back to his house in northern Cyprus asking for his land back, the Turk may empathize with him but in the end of the day he would tell him to get lost. Likewise, what happened in Kosovo was tragic but I still would of preferred Serbian aggression victorious over the Albanian.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think we're at the point of a dog chasing its tail, Thekla. On the playground, whenever I'm on yard duty (which I happen to have this week, sigh), I see a kid kicking another kid. I confront him on it. The first thing the kid says is, "yeah, I wasn't the only one! That kid over there! And that kid over there! And yesterday another kid did the same thing!"

I guess I'd like to just focus on the first kid and ask him if he thinks it's ok to kick another kid. I don't care about the other three or four kids in other situations. I can talk to them right afterward. But the fact is, I saw this kid kick another kid.

These kinds of discussions, as I feared, always end up in U.S.-bashing or "yeah, but what about Americans!? They did x, y, and z." Perhaps we can just stick with the country in question. It always seems to divert to Americans and their hypocrisy. And no amount of admission of American bad behavior ever gets us back on the topic. Americans have been bad. I get it. The government is crooked. Got it.

But the Serbian massacres, that was believed by priests and folks I've talked to, to be a hoax. I don't buy it. And I guess I wonder why we can so easily turn a blind eye because the perps are Orthodox and so are we? Just bugs me, that's all.

And all the defense of bad behavior, the "yeah, well, you guys do it, too!" added with buzuxi's arguments that death and mayhem yield good stuff, so let's not lament butchery, all these arguments only trouble me all the more!

As I've pointed out before, there was a vast amount of mis-information in the US media; for example, the claim that there were 100,000 Albanians missing and feared killed by Serbs in Kosovo (David Scheffer, US State Dept.). The number was later claimed by the US to be up to 500,000. This indeed swayed public opinion toward the NATO bombing. By the end of the conflict, the number had been downgraded to 10,000 Kosovars missing or dead - all of these allegations were stated to be based on claims of missing persons (no lists were provided). Which - if any of these numbers - have been verified as factual (FBI teams visited the region following the war and failed to find anything close to these numbers).

There are two sorts of mis-information; the sort above, and selectively failing to provide information - and this was also the case. Atrocities committed against Serbs were rarely if ever reported past the 80s. (Prior to the US support for UCK the NYTimes, for example, ran stories reporting the intimidation and killing of Serbs living in Kosovo.)

Given the misinformation and lack of information, and the often outright bigotry toward Serbs in this country, as I said before it is not altogether surprising that what is reported would not be trusted.

And as before, how many in the US have expressed remorse for our participation in the ethnic cleansing of Croatia (estimates of deaths vary, but hover around 1,200 iirc), the pre-conflict support for UCK (KLA), etc. ?

Perhaps if we in the US do discuss and show remorse for our contribution to the mess, then others will be more free to do so as well.

 

[buzuxi02]

These kinds of discussions, as I feared, always end up in U.S.-bashing or "yeah, but what about Americans!? They did x, y, and z." Perhaps we can just stick with the country in question. It always seems to divert to Americans and their hypocrisy. And no amount of admission of American bad behavior ever gets us back on the topic. Americans have been bad. I get it. The government is crooked. Got it.

I think that's more because we are the policeman of the world, so very easy to find situations that can be taken as hippocrisy. Like that John Kerry speech this past week about how no one should behave like still in the 20th century as a pretext for invasion (or something to that effect). I swore he dusted off an old speech from his days when he was criticizing Bush for the Iraqi invasion. I'm thinking to myself, 'these talking points sound familiar, where did I hear them before'. We are re-using our old speeches used to criticize ourselves and they work perfectly because we do the same.

And all the defense of bad behavior, the "yeah, well, you guys do it, too!" added with buzuxi's arguments that death and mayhem yield good stuff, so let's not lament butchery, all these arguments only trouble me all the more!

Well that wasn't exactly what I wanted to convey. More about how in war each person has vested interest in a particular side to win and when it comes to self preservation desperate times call for desperate measures. You wont hear anyone say, "even though we were victorious I wish we didn't slaughter their military aged men, I would have preferred to lose and for the victors to have sold me and my family into slavery and have my wife serve in a harem". We may have some guilt years later but we wouldn't want to reverse the outcome.

 

[Thekla]

I think we're at the point of a dog chasing its tail, Thekla. On the playground, whenever I'm on yard duty (which I happen to have this week, sigh), I see a kid kicking another kid. I confront him on it. The first thing the kid says is, "yeah, I wasn't the only one! That kid over there! And that kid over there! And yesterday another kid did the same thing!"

I guess I'd like to just focus on the first kid and ask him if he thinks it's ok to kick another kid. I don't care about the other three or four kids in other situations. I can talk to them right afterward. But the fact is, I saw this kid kick another kid.

As a mom, I never respond to the first fist reported; surely, I address the punch that's thrown -- but also, it is my responsibility to get to the root of the problem. More often than not, there were earlier events that informed this last bit of malfeasance; provocations, earlier strikes, etc. If I haven't gone past the final punch to the root of the problem, it's a disservice to both children involved. It's wrong ( tacitly approving the provocation and thus potentially allowing the problem to continue).

I do not consider my position to be aligned with your example ("Yeah, but he did so and so ..."). Instead I am noting that the US press (and govt., and most US folks I spoke with and read) didn't care to or know about the fist punches thrown but focused on the counterattack. Ignored were Tudjman's evocation of the Ustashe past; the unaddressed repeated murder of Serbs, the naming of a state building after the Croatian author of the "Serbian solution" (convert 1/3, exile 1/3, exterminate 1/3 of Serbs), the recall of a Ustashe strongman from Argentina to a government position (who stated, re: his actions against the Jews he'd "do it again"), the suspension of pensions etc. only for Serbs. In Kosovo, the repeated attacks against Serbs (including unaddressed killings) and moderate Albanians, the US covert support of the UCK/KLA and their (violent) provocations ... etc.

Does this justify the subsequent slaughter ? I do not claim it does. I don't desire to support any of the slaughter -- of Albanians or Serbs.

These kinds of discussions, as I feared, always end up in U.S.-bashing or "yeah, but what about Americans!? They did x, y, and z." Perhaps we can just stick with the country in question. It always seems to divert to Americans and their hypocrisy. And no amount of admission of American bad behavior ever gets us back on the topic. Americans have been bad. I get it. The government is crooked. Got it.

We agree that governments can be ... wonky. That is not my point. US citizens joined in; how often I heard the response to the violence against Serbs perpetrated by Albanians after the war - "well, given what the Serbs did this is understandable". But then wouldn't what the Serbs did in response to earlier actions also be "understandable" ? The same response was given by folks I spoke with for the US sponsored ethnic cleansing of Serbs (and some 1200 civilian deaths in the process of Operation Storm alone) -- it was understandable given what the Serbs had done in Croatia. Always attacks against Serbs were "understandable", even justifiable; attacks against others were horrors.

But the Serbian massacres, that was believed by priests and folks I've talked to, to be a hoax. I don't buy it. And I guess I wonder why we can so easily turn a blind eye because the perps are Orthodox and so are we? Just bugs me, that's all.

I am not denying massacres happened; again, given the tidal wave of (known to be just) plain false information given in the press - is it any surprise the people who were often unjustly vilified in the press and among the populace might consider many or more reports to be false as well ? Children of Serb origin were publicly vilified in this country as 'monsters'. Read "Arabs after 9/11". (Including a Jewish friend of mine who was picked up because he 'looked the part'.)

And all the defense of bad behavior, the "yeah, well, you guys do it, too!" added with buzuxi's arguments that death and mayhem yield good stuff, so let's not lament butchery, all these arguments only trouble me all the more!

Then I haven't made myself clear. I am not defending "bad behavior" -- except I won't defend it for Serbs, for Kosovar Albanians, for Croatians. I won't single out one group when all were involved. And I don't find it surprising that when a group has been vilified, and the subject of blatantly false reporting, that they might consider other reports false as well.

Finally, my point is this - why focus on the other guy's sins ? How many times when the press reports critically the use of depleted uranium, a list of conflicts is given except in Serbia ? Clearly, there is not sympathy for some people's suffering.

Instead of focusing on your priest's shortcomings, what about opening trust, sympathy (making it safe for people to change their minds, openly) by saying something like "I regret that the US vilified and lied about the Serbian people." "It's tragic that so many Serbs were killed and ethnically cleansed from their homeland." "It's a shame we supported the training of the UCK, who used violence, instead of giving more support to moderates."

By your example, by your sympathy, by your brotherhood, make it easier to face these things; and then, give it prayer, support, and time.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I don't focus on my priest's shortcomings, Thekla. I'm sad where this discussion has gone. I figured starting this thread would get into the "something's wrong with YOU, gurney" stuff. In Orthodoxy, criticizing something a priest says usually ends up that way. I disagree with what he said. It's not the first time I've heard it. It bothers me. Denying atrocities and tossing them to the wind with conspiracy theory angles isn't healthy imho. I'm not going to approach it from the sympathy to the Serb people angle. We're not talking about vilifying people and what not, we're talking about massacre denial. Most Germans are ASHAMED of World War II. It's a sore spot with them. I've not only heard that about Germans, I've seen it. They are terribly ashamed, and that has been generations away. They still are sick about it. But with Serbs, I've seen a lot of denial. Just an observation. But for some reason, every criticism has to turn toward someone else. Ok, the Serbs got vilified. I understand that. And as Orthodox Christians they should be willing to own up to the sins of their soldiers and leadership and accept the criticism WITHOUT pointing fingers at the Bosnian Muslims or Albanians or Croats and other antagonists. Orthodox Christians accept responsibility for the sins they control. And it was within their control NOT to commit atrocities in the name of ethnic cleansing. I don't care what the media said. I don't care what Americans have done. I don't care if they felt picked on. I don't care what their feelings are that made them do those things. They did them. They need to live with it, own up, and man up. Denial is for cowards. I don't like it, period.

I'm bowing out of this thread now. It is predictably the way most TAW threads go that criticize Russia, the Balkans, or anything that involves Orthodox Christians. It's a taboo in here to lay any blame EVER at the table of the East. And it doesn't speak well for our faith if you ask me.

I'm out.

God bless everyone.

Instead of focusing on your priest's shortcomings, what about opening trust, sympathy (making it safe for people to change their minds, openly) by saying something like "I regret that the US vilified and lied about the Serbian people." "It's tragic that so many Serbs were killed and ethnically cleansed from their homeland." "It's a shame we supported the training of the UCK, who used violence, instead of giving more support to moderates."

By your example, by your sympathy, by your brotherhood, make it easier to face these things; and then, give it prayer, support, and time.

 

[AcquirePeace]

As a Serbian Orthodox Christian from Bosnia and Hercegovina, there’s a lot I could say about Srebrenica and the Balkan war. However, I don’t find it appropriate to go into great detail about it during this time of Great Lent. I will say this though, many innocent people were killed on all sides, Serbians, Croats, Albanians, Bosniaks, etc. However, I refuse to agree with the way the media has portrayed Serbians as the “bad guys” in this war.

As this is the time of Great Lent (and this post was posted on Forgiveness Sunday), I don’t think it’s appropriate to point out what you perceive as faults of this priest’s viewpoint. Rather than judge, maybe it would be best if you try to find some understanding as to why this is such a touchy subject in the Serbian community. I think in order to do so, you’d have to dig up a lot of the past. Problems have been going on there for hundreds of years. As for the Serbian holocaust, I suggest you read up on Jasenovac and other concentration camps in the Balkans. I also recommend watching the documentary, The Weight of Chains, which discusses the role that the United States, NATO, and EU played in the breakup of former Yugoslavia.

 

[Tallguy88]

I wouldn't want to stop the Spanish inquisitions and whatever other 'immoral' techniques they used to rid Europe of the Moors. Bottom line is we are all glad there is no Caliphate of Cordoba.

The Inquisition happened after the Reconquista was completed.

Jews despised what happened to their ancestors at WW2. But would any modern day Jew 60 years removed from the events want to undo it? Obviously in hindsight the benefits outweighed the costs, sounds harsh but its the truth and we all know it.

Translation: The Holocaust was good for the Jews, on the whole.

I've met a Jewish lady who was in Auschwitz. She still has the tattoo. Her twin sister died there. I guarantee you, she would undo the Holocaust if she could.

 

[Tallguy88]

I'm bowing out of this thread now. It is predictably the way most TAW threads go that criticize Russia, the Balkans, or anything that involves Orthodox Christians. It's a taboo in here to lay any blame EVER at the table of the East. And it doesn't speak well for our faith if you ask me.

I'm out.

God bless everyone.

I agree. The Russians/Greeks/Serbs/whoever-can-do-no-wrong-ever mentality that I see is a stumbling block to me in investigating Orthodoxy. Fortunately, my own parish is OCA and about half convert with a very level-headed priest.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

I agree. The Russians/Greeks/Serbs/whoever-can-do-no-wrong-ever mentality that I see is a stumbling block to me in investigating Orthodoxy. Fortunately, my own parish is OCA and about half convert with a very level-headed priest.

The Russians/Greeks/Serbs/whoever-can-do-no-wrong-ever - . This is your stamp. We (Russians) eat, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], sleep, dream,...like anybody else. So can do mistakes, wrong/ bad things also. I met same mentality in ppl from usa, eu... and some neighbors...
Dislike russian, greece, serbs, but have interest in Orthodoxy - can start from old fathers which lived in other countries and will have no need in our (R,Se,Gree) Orthodox legacy.

 

[Tallguy88]

The Russians/Greeks/Serbs/whoever-can-do-no-wrong-ever - . This is your stamp. We (Russians) eat, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], sleep, dream,...like anybody else. So can do mistakes, wrong/ bad things also. I met same mentality in ppl from usa, eu... and some neighbors...
Dislike russian, greece, serbs, but have interest in Orthodoxy - can start from old fathers which lived in other countries and will have no need in our (R,Se,Gree) Orthodox legacy.

I'm sorry, did you think I was insulting Russians, Greeks, and Serbs? Let me clarify.

It is a stumbling block for me when Orthodox people white-wash bad things done by their ethnic homeland (or converts trying to be hyperdox).

Does it happen in American Protestantism? All the time! But I'm not inquiring into American Protestantism because I don't believe it's the one true Church. I am inquiring into Orthodoxy, and I find the ethnic-clubs to be a hindrance. Fortunately, as I stated, my own parish is about half converts and half ethnic, with a good priest.

 

[Tallguy88]

My continued participation in this thread is contrary to the spirit of Lent. If I have offended, I ask for forgiveness.

Unsubscribing.

 

[buzuxi02]

I'm sorry, did you think I was insulting Russians, Greeks, and Serbs? Let me clarify.

It is a stumbling block for me when Orthodox people white-wash bad things done by their ethnic homeland (or converts trying to be hyperdox).

Most people here know that I consider slavs to be an odd bunch, with both russians and ukraines on top of that list.

One thing though is I defend Russians because I have never met a group of people maligned as much as the Russians. Ukrainians are now guilty of this in the passed month of which they are basically of the same tribe. Stalin is as much ukranian as he was russian. And He was 100 percent Georgian! In the past month I've heard accusations that russians are evil and to just look at their history!

The 30 years war killed a significant portion of western europe making it one of the bloodiest battles in human history and it didn't involve Russia. Britain was a ruthless empire which treated Indians like animals and to this day even the irish still have a problem with them. So what transgressions are Russians guilty of? And if its during the soviet era we all acknowledge this especially the ROCOR and this evil atheist empire would include Ukraine of which many Soviet leaders were Ukrainian with the most evil being a non-Slavic Georgian.

From Napolean to Mussolini to Hitler these are all products of the west and not from Russia. One of the most ruthless empires was the mongol dynasty nothing to do with russians. But why haven't the self righteous hippocrites ever questioned why there's an ever expanding military league of 27 or so countries for the sole purpose of destroying Russia???

Is this not the height of paranoia? Am I wrong to question the mental health of the west with such a bizzare animal known as Nato? What would you think if China starts a similiar military coalition consisting of India and Iran and Cambodia and Thailand and Vietnam and Sri Lanka and it grows westward by each passing year with the excuse that they are protecting themselves from the boogeyman? Do you see the paranoia of the west? The boogeyman 'Russian bear' is coming to get them???? NATO does not reflect a coalition of peaceful freedom loving democracies it reflects a paranoid old man suffering from a mental illness.

 

[SeventhValley]

Good point from one newscast Ukraine gave up it's nukes. How can we expect other countries to give up nukes if we do not honor their soviengnty after.
Hopefully once the Crimera votes to leave Ukraine Russia will tone down the rhetoric and Ukraine can move on.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hopefully once the Crimera votes to leave Ukraine Russia will tone down the rhetoric and Ukraine can move on.

Honestly..

As much as it's hoped Russia will tone down the rhetoric and Ukraine will move on, it seems that there's way too much at stake to do so - and as it has been with other world theaters when war is involved, it's not so much about the people as the profits that are a focus.

There was an interesting article on the issue which I thought was amazing...

• Why Much Of What You've Read About Ukraine Isn't Quite Right, As Explained By Ukrainians | ThinkProgress
• What The Russian (And Chinese) Papers Are Saying About Ukraine | Zero Hedge
• Ukraine: Follow The Energy | Zero Hedge
• Why Bankers Want Control of Ukraine | Zero Hedge

I tend to be skeptical whenever the U.S comes in claiming that another country doesn't have the right to invade another despite the history of expansionism and Imperialism of the U.S (done in the name of "liberating" other countries - even when they didn't ask for it - or trying to police other countries we don't want as a threat to us) - and using conflict as a pretext to do war-games. And with the Ukraine situation, I can't help but look at who tends to profit at the end of the day with the conflict - as well as seeing how much of it has been engineered and how much people in the Ukraine (as well as other places like Iraq or Vietnam and other places) are left out..

But I am thankful others aren't automatically of the mindset that Putin is supposedly an aggressor whille the U.S is the "savior" for standing up to him when it's really not our affair.

As said in one of the articles:

“President Putin told reporters that the damage to all countries involved is mutual:

“We can cause damage to each other– mutual damage. And this needs to be thought about. . . We believe our actions are fully justified. And any threats to Russia are counterproductive and harmful.”

Mr. Putin added that Russia is still preparing for upcoming G8 meeting.

“If [the other countries] do not want to come, they don’t have to,” he told reporters .

The Russian President also expressed the opinion that the U.S. has historically created its own geopolitical goals, and then dragging along the rest of the world underneath them:

“Our partners, especially in the U.S.– they always clearly formulate their geopolitical interests and pursue them very aggressively. Guided by the well-known phrase, “you are either with us or against us,” they drag the rest of the world along, underneath them. And whoever doesn’t go along is beaten and usually killed,” the President told reporters.

He emphasized that Russia’s actions come from legitimate grounds.​

So on one hand, the Chinese are essentially making the West out to be the belligerents, the Russians to be defending their interests, and the Chinese as the strong diplomats who are pushing for peace.

And on the other hand, the Russian papers are highlighting the utter hypocrisy of US foreign policy– it’s OK for America to invade whatever country it likes, but not for Russia to defend its own interests.

Average:​

We all know about the important military consequences of controlling Ukraine to the US and Russia, but an equally important and overlooked topic is why bankers want control of Ukraine’s monetary supply and ultimately control of Ukraine through controlling its debt (the proposed $1 billion loan from the IMF). All major Western military invasions in the past several years – Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and attempts in Syria – involved countries in which the Bank for International Settlements had not yet gained control of the monetary supply at the time of these invasions.

The international banking cartels represented by the World Bank, the IMF and the Bank for International Settlements are unhappy with their low level of influence in controlling the debt of emerging economic powers like China and Russia and know that they very well can’t directly declare war on Russia and China to effect regime change in order to obtain control of their debt as they accomplished with the aforementioned much smaller countries that didn't have the military strength to withstand a US/EU/banking led invasion. However, these global banking cartels know that they can gain influence through regime change without direct military intervention in the 15 newly independent states of the former USSR a la John Perkin's Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (or at least this was their first initial thought in Ukraine). Below, JS Kim of SmartKnowledgeU discusses the above neglected topic and the gravity of the growing military escalation in Ukraine at the current time


Why Bankers Want Control of Ukraine - YouTube[/URL]

.​

__________________

Outside of that, when you see the actual history of the country, it does seem that it is truly a LONG-TERM issue for whoever controls the area since Crimea has long been a strategic and geopolitical prize. Apparently, long under the protection of the Ottoman Empire, the Crimean Khanate ruled the area for more than 300 years until Catherine the Great annexed the peninsula in 1783, part of a broad expansion of the Russian Empire under the Tsarina's reign - and these five maps that follow illustrate how Crimea continued to change hands from the 18th century to the present.

A vassal state of the Ottoman Empire since 1478, Crimea evolved into several political entities after the Russo-Turkish Treaty in 1774.

As a consequence of the Russian Revolution, Crimea changed hands and officially took on several new names over this three-year period.

After the reassertion of Soviet control in late 1920, Crimea became an autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, until the territory was annexed by Nazi Germany in 1941, returning to Russian control in 1945.

During the late Soviet era, Crimea was transferred to Ukraine, with its administrative status being upgraded on the eve of the dissolution of the U.S.S.R.

With the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, Crimea became part of an independent Ukraine. Crimea's communist authorities proclaimed self-government in 1992, which ultimately led to the territory being granted expanded autonomous rights by Kiev.​

In light of how often the country dynamics keep shifting and have for various reasons, it seems that it may not end anytime soon - history alone says otherwise.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

.. I am noting that the US press (and govt., and most US folks I spoke with and read) didn't care to or know about the fist punches thrown but focused on the counterattack. Ignored were Tudjman's evocation of the Ustashe past; the unaddressed repeated murder of Serbs, the naming of a state building after the Croatian author of the "Serbian solution" (convert 1/3, exile 1/3, exterminate 1/3 of Serbs), the recall of a Ustashe strongman from Argentina to a government position (who stated, re: his actions against the Jews he'd "do it again"), the suspension of pensions etc. only for Serbs. In Kosovo, the repeated attacks against Serbs (including unaddressed killings) and moderate Albanians, the US covert support of the UCK/KLA and their (violent) provocations ... etc.

Does this justify the subsequent slaughter ? I do not claim it does. I don't desire to support any of the slaughter -- of Albanians or Serbs.



We agree that governments can be ... wonky. That is not my point. US citizens joined in; how often I heard the response to the violence against Serbs perpetrated by Albanians after the war - "well, given what the Serbs did this is understandable". But then wouldn't what the Serbs did in response to earlier actions also be "understandable" ? The same response was given by folks I spoke with for the US sponsored ethnic cleansing of Serbs (and some 1200 civilian deaths in the process of Operation Storm alone) -- it was understandable given what the Serbs had done in Croatia. Always attacks against Serbs were "understandable", even justifiable; attacks against others were horrors.




I am not denying massacres happened; again, given the tidal wave of (known to be just) plain false information given in the press - is it any surprise the people who were often unjustly vilified in the press and among the populace might consider many or more reports to be false as well ? Children of Serb origin were publicly vilified in this country as 'monsters'. Read "Arabs after 9/11". (Including a Jewish friend of mine who was picked up because he 'looked the part'.)

... I am not defending "bad behavior" -- except I won't defend it for Serbs, for Kosovar Albanians, for Croatians. I won't single out one group when all were involved. And I don't find it surprising that when a group has been vilified, and the subject of blatantly false reporting, that they might consider other reports false as well.

Finally, my point is this - why focus on the other guy's sins ? How many times when the press reports critically the use of depleted uranium, a list of conflicts is given except in Serbia ? Clearly, there is not sympathy for some people's suffering.

Essentially,

It seems what you're noting is the simple reality of what Proverbs 18:17 notes when it says "The first to present His case seems right - till another comes forward and questions him." And what we all have to ensure is to not simply go by a presentation from the media that shows one side to be negative and all others positive if we don't have all the facts - nor should we be quick to defend a side we value as innocent if we don't know all variables.

And in an age of violence and war, it does seem that we have to be more aware of the people on all sides who are harmed because of us not always having all the facts....or having those facts left out. This also goes with the hunt to find facts on how others are off even though we may not have cleared our own records to show where we're at least honest with ourselves as equally - as Jesus noted in Matthew 7:5 and Luke 6:42, it's hard to remove specks from the eyes of others when we have beams in our own eyes that are essentially poking the eyes of one another out and keeping us at a distance since the beam will always provoke anger/aggression from others we may wish to reach in our attempts of study/research if it is not addressed - but when we also deal with our beams, we simultaneously challenge others to consider where they may have things in their eyes that need to change......

With the beams in our own eyes, we end up poking the eyes of one another out continually - and that can be challenging, in the same way that it can be challenging when others in the U.S wish to speak on the Serbia issue to see it for what it is while not simultaneously setting the record straight on our side so that there's balance/accuracy - or making things confusing in trying to sort out issues since the thing we may say is a problem (as it concerns what other Orthodox do in calling out the sins or genocides of other nations) is something that one may not be willing to do if it concerns a highly valued ethnic group within Orthodoxy whose group did the same....and thus, because of our prior devotion to the ethnic side of things, we cannot call things as they are.

And with the beam aspect, there's an aspect of considering that we'll NEVER fully remove the beam from our own eyes in this lifetime since it takes a lifetime to be perfected - thus, we're continually (be it on the personal or the global level) challenged to work on ourselves and yet be hopeful that in doing so our example challenges others to more self-introspection - and opens the door for others who do slander/not share truth to consider how wrong it is what they do.

For many concerned with the Serbia issue, I'm amazed at considering how many have noted that there's more power in a changed lifestyle than voices calling for change or speaking on the issue...

But as it concerns the focusing on the protests, I do think some of it has been planned and not merely an image of people responding asking for freedom. For a good presentation on the issue, one can go to
IMF Sponsored "Democracy" in The Ukraine - or the following:

The Truth About Ukraine - A US Coup? - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMpktnHKRCY

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Re: Russia and Ukraine -- I tend to withhold opinion until more facts are known. What I do know (that is not being reported) is Kiev's abolishing the office of pres. for Crimea (a semi-autonomous region) as Crimeans were too frequently voting pro-Russian presidents; Kiev unilaterally abolished the office and appointed a pm instead in the mid 90s (so much for desiring democracy).The parliament in Crimea asked for Russian support before the Russian parliament approved the sending of (requested by Crimea) troops into Crimea. Also, before this happened, Kiev rescinded minority language rights and threatened to rescind Russia's port rights. Ie, there was more than mild (stupid imo) provocation on the part of Kiev over the long haul and recently.

Not that any of this will make the decision "for me"on this matter; what is the case is that the situation is not how it has been presented to us. (And follows on a promise to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand to include former Warsaw Pact countries - abrogated.) As for honoring sovereignty, territorial integrity, and UN charter -- we threw that out the window with Kosovo. (And not a few countries warned us about setting that precedent; we are reaping what we sowed.) And have continued to fail to honor sovereignty - in Iraq, Libya, etc. etc.

Thankfully, especially as it concerns Lent, what we have to keep in mind is that all we really can be certain of is that prayer for all involved is what we can be certain makes eternal difference.

Wars, rumors of wars and other things are what Christ promised....Matthew 24:5-7 and Mark 13:6-8. And thus, we have to guard our hearts from reacting too soon - or responding too late.....and in both cases, not seeing how Christ would call us to be. For even His people (the Jews) often did acts of corruption and physically harmed other groups (even as they themselves were harmed) - and yet you never see him doing what many of us do today when it comes to global protesting against actions done....he didn't focus on the evils of Rome in its expansionism/wars nor did you see him focusing on the revolts of the Jewish people for freedom (seeing how they didn't trust in the Lord overall and thus any protests/revolts were pointless in regards to the Kingdom to come). He stayed focused on the Kingdom and the Gospel - seeing how all problems were a symptomatic of a world gone sick and in need of the Great Physician....

And it's the same today, in many ways. As much as we can discuss these issues or debate them, there does seem to be a battle that goes on with not having Christ as the focus and not being aware of how slowly the media can shift us to fighting battles we were never called to fight..

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am inquiring into Orthodoxy, and I find the ethnic-clubs to be a hindrance. Fortunately, as I stated, my own parish is about half converts and half ethnic, with a good priest.

yeah, that does happen. as someone once said, Orthodoxy is the right faith filled with all the wrong people. you'll see that kinda stuff from time to time, but it sounds like you have a good Church that you are looking in to.

 

[Thekla]

Essentially,

It seems what you're noting is the simple reality of what Proverbs 18:17 notes when it says "The first to present His case seems right - till another comes forward and questions him." And what we all have to ensure is to not simply go by a presentation from the media that shows one side to be negative and all others positive if we don't have all the facts - nor should we be quick to defend a side we value as innocent if we don't know all variables.

And in an age of violence and war, it does seem that we have to be more aware of the people on all sides who are harmed because of us not always having all the facts....or having those facts left out. This also goes with the hunt to find facts on how others are off even though we may not have cleared our own records to show where we're at least honest with ourselves as equally - as Jesus noted in Matthew 7:5 and Luke 6:42, it's hard to remove specks from the eyes of others when we have beams in our own eyes that are essentially poking the eyes of one another out and keeping us at a distance since the beam will always provoke anger/aggression from others we may wish to reach in our attempts of study/research if it is not addressed - but when we also deal with our beams, we simultaneously challenge others to consider where they may have things in their eyes that need to change......

With the beams in our own eyes, we end up poking the eyes of one another out continually - and that can be challenging, in the same way that it can be challenging when others in the U.S wish to speak on the Serbia issue to see it for what it is while not simultaneously setting the record straight on our side so that there's balance/accuracy - or making things confusing in trying to sort out issues since the thing we may say is a problem (as it concerns what other Orthodox do in calling out the sins or genocides of other nations) is something that one may not be willing to do if it concerns a highly valued ethnic group within Orthodoxy whose group did the same....and thus, because of our prior devotion to the ethnic side of things, we cannot call things as they are.

And with the beam aspect, there's an aspect of considering that we'll NEVER fully remove the beam from our own eyes in this lifetime since it takes a lifetime to be perfected - thus, we're continually (be it on the personal or the global level) challenged to work on ourselves and yet be hopeful that in doing so our example challenges others to more self-introspection - and opens the door for others who do slander/not share truth to consider how wrong it is what they do.

For many concerned with the Serbia issue, I'm amazed at considering how many have noted that there's more power in a changed lifestyle than voices calling for change or speaking on the issue...

But as it concerns the focusing on the protests, I do think some of it has been planned and not merely an image of people responding asking for freedom. For a good presentation on the issue, one can go to
IMF Sponsored "Democracy" in The Ukraine - or the following:

The Truth About Ukraine - A US Coup? - YouTube

The Truth About The Ukraine "Revolution" - YouTube

Thank-you for expressing what I was trying to say so well

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank-you for expressing what I was trying to say so well

Glad to know I was able to catch where you were coming from - and on the issue, I think you did a good job expressing the issue.

On a side note, I came across this and thought it was a thought-provoking (although disturbing) facet that I've not heard mentioned in many places - as it concerns the drive for natural resources and the ways that certain discriminatory groups have been given support from the U.S. in many ways:

• Natural Gas is What Detonated the Ukraine Crisis | Global Research

• The Geopolitical History of Ukraine: Geopolitics of the Ukrainian Breadbasket

• Ukraine “Color Revolutions”: At the Crossroads of Euro-Atlantic and Eurasian Power Politics

• Ukraine and the “Politics of Anti-Semitism”: The West Upholds Neo-Nazi Repression of Ukraine’s Jewish Community

• A New Cold War? Ukraine Violence Escalates, Leaked Tape Suggests U.S. Was Plotting Coup - Democracy Now!

 

[Thekla]

Glad to know I was able to catch where you were coming from - and on the issue, I think you did a good job expressing the issue.

On a side note, I came across this and thought it was a thought-provoking (although disturbing) facet that I've not heard mentioned in many places - as it concerns the drive for natural resources and the ways that certain discriminatory groups have been given support from the U.S. in many ways:

• Natural Gas is What Detonated the Ukraine Crisis | Global Research

• The Geopolitical History of Ukraine: Geopolitics of the Ukrainian Breadbasket

• Ukraine “Color Revolutions”: At the Crossroads of Euro-Atlantic and Eurasian Power Politics

• Ukraine and the “Politics of Anti-Semitism”: The West Upholds Neo-Nazi Repression of Ukraine’s Jewish Community

• A New Cold War? Ukraine Violence Escalates, Leaked Tape Suggests U.S. Was Plotting Coup - Democracy Now!

Thank-you, as this is yet another dimension of the conflict. And thank-you for the maps demonstrating the history of Crimea ( truly important in this matter); history matters. And as in other conflicts, history is often jettisoned in the interest of simplifying things; I think this must be the case in foreign policy as well.

The media timeline tends to exclude the history of Crimea, its autonomous status within Ukraine, and Kiev's recent historic treatment of Crimea.

To add to your list (before I've read the links admittedly) ZeroHedge pointed out that the majority of Russia's oil is shipped through the Black Sea (Kiev stated last week that Russia's agreed port arrangements would be 'up for discussion' around the same time minority language rights were revoked; imperiling standing agreements per the economic sector - especially oil - tends to "get the US's interest" roused as well when our shipping routes are involved.)