1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

  2. Faith Options in Your User Profile
    Please click on the following regarding this important notice in Announcements:

    Faith Options in Your User Profile.

Seniors sue over Religious Freedom

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Voegelin, Oct 29, 2003.

  1. Voegelin

    Voegelin Reactionary

    Messages:
    19,713
    Likes Received:
    345
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Dayton Daily News/AP
    Bobby Ross, Jr.

    BALCH SPRINGS, Texas — For years, senior citizens gathered at the Balch Springs Community Center on Monday mornings to enjoy a gray-haired gospel band known as "Silver Threads" and hear an inspirational message from the Rev. J.B. Barton.

    Until a few weeks ago, nobody seemed to mind.

    But then three residents said they were offended by religious activity at the city-owned center. So, officials in the Dallas suburb put a stop to it.

    "The bottom line and the central issue was the fact that the city operates a public-funded community center, not a church," said David Berman, attorney for Balch Springs, a city of 19,000 southeast of Dallas.

    The ban on gospel music, preaching and blessings before meals at the center drew an immediate backlash from senior citizens such as Marcelline Green, 75, who recently picketed outside City Hall with a sign that read "Don't mess with Grandma. She's mad."

    "Our rights are being taken away from us," said Green, one of 16 plaintiffs in a civil rights lawsuit filed against the city in federal court. "We are being discriminated against by the minority."

    In the 20-page lawsuit filed last month by the nonprofit Liberty Legal Institute, the plaintiffs argue that Balch Springs officials violated their constitutional rights of free speech and religious expression. They "desire to engage in voluntary and non-disruptive religious speech and expression at the center," the petition states.

    "Citizens don't lose their First Amendment rights because they are in public or in a public building," said Jeff Mateer, an attorney with Liberty Legal Institute, a Plano-based firm that handles religious freedom cases.

    In response to complaints from seniors who like the religious programming, Balch Springs modified the ban. The city now allows voluntary prayer and gospel music to continue, but bars any minister from delivering "a sermon, an inspirational or a devotional at the center."

    The compromise is spelled out in a two-page memo posted on the center's door. The memo states that the city must maintain "the constitutional wall which prevents an intermingling of religious activities and local government."

    But allowing the music back without the preaching didn't satisfy everyone.

    "I think they're trying to throw us a bone to see if we'll take the bone and run with it, but we're not," said Barney Clark, a 77-year-old World War II veteran who plays guitar for the Silver Threads.

    "I fought for love of freedom and country," said Clark, a plaintiff along with his wife, Peggy. "And here I've got old and useless, they say, and I ain't got no freedom no more."

    continued here

    A freight train is bearing down on radical secularists and they don't even hear it. If granny wants gospel music and a preacher at her Senior Center, she is going to get gospel music and a preacher. Anyone who stands in her way is going to be squashed.

    WWII vet Barney Clark probably remembers the newsreels of FDR singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" on the deck of the HMS Prince of Wales and isn't about to have anyone tell him where and when he can listen to gospel music or to a minster.

    All these people remember when it wasn't illegal to put up a Nativity Scene on the town green, when it wasn't illegal for a coach to say a prayer before a HS football game, when it wasn't illegal to display the Ten Commandments in a courthouse.

    Because those restrictions didn't affect them much, they let those infringements on freedom slide. But the radical left has taken the fight to them, to their Senior Centers and nursing homes.

    And they will fight back. Nobody bucks the Senior lobby and gets reelected to talk about it.

    Btw....the children of seniors don't like this either. Even if they are secular themselves, they don't want anyone messing with what gives their parents enjoyment in their waning years.
     
  2. SirKenin

    SirKenin Contributor

    Messages:
    7,367
    Likes Received:
    180
    Faith:
    Baptist
    AMEN!!!

    And that's all I have to say about that.
     
  3. Bushido216

    Bushido216 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,339
    Likes Received:
    128
    Marital Status:
    Engaged
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Eh... so long as the center doesn't do this sort of thing at like town meetings and such, and allows other groups equal access, it's kinda ****.

    It's not like a school where kids have to go.
     
  4. Voegelin

    Voegelin Reactionary

    Messages:
    19,713
    Likes Received:
    345
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Bushido216....can't do that. Not legally. Go by stare decisis and these senior programs are illegal. Which is fine with me! The radicals have so entangled the state with religion, there is no way out for them. Even the 9th circuit decision banning "God" from the pledge is justified by precedent (not by the constitution).

    One can't claim this government funded venue or that is OK for religious expression but this one is not. This is the natural progression the left wanted. So let them live with it. It is why Democrats are in the minority after generations of almost unbroken majority rule.

    Btw...the attacks on the Boy Scouts are good too. I want Democrats to boo the Scouts during their 2004 convention just as they did in 2000.

    Let's also hope SCOTUS upholds the 9th circuit court and bans "God" in the pledge. That will ignite a firestorm too.
     
  5. Bushido216

    Bushido216 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,339
    Likes Received:
    128
    Marital Status:
    Engaged
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Catholic
    You can let them use it for religous functions so long as you allow equal usage I believe.

    BTW, the left's logic isn't bad, per se. The idea is that since you can't make sure that everyone will get equal consideration, you make it so that no one can get any consideration.
     
  6. Voegelin

    Voegelin Reactionary

    Messages:
    19,713
    Likes Received:
    345
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Let them? Let them? They paid for it. All their lives. They can do whatever they want in their Senior Centers. No business of mine, yours, the ACLU, the American Jewish Congress (which files most of these lawsuits) or anyone else.

    Besides, the law, which is ALL written by judges not elected officials, on this matter, says you are wrong. All religious expression must be banned. It is not a question of equal protection.

    Of course we all know some religions are more equal than others. Muslims are allowed to pray in NYC schools as are native Americans in schools in New Mexico. Jewish charities receive over $4 billion in Federal aid a year (Catholics who out number Jews 13 to one, get half that amount).New Age stuff is crammed down kids throats in government school. Everyone except Christians are allowed freedom of expression.

    I know many elderly who use Hindu and Buddhist meditation technique to alleviate pain. You want to ban that too? Nah...that is OK...it is just "meditation".

    Of course praying to the Christian God for relief can't be allowed. Separation of church and state you know...

    The left's logic is only their secular humanist view should be allowed anywhere in the public square. One can do or say anything, as far as the left is concerned, in a Senior Center except have a truly free expression of religious belief.

    But...as I have mentioned, I welcome this. I want the left to push this. We all know religious symbols in public cemeteries will be next (the left has already set the stage for this with their attack on the "Mojave Cross" in California).

    Go after our grandparents. Make their lives miserable. I welcome this attack.

    Most people were too busy raising families and trying to get ahead to notice when the left filed lawsuit after lawsuit censoring the Christian faith.

    Americans are tolerant...sometimes too tolerant. We let it slide.

    But this crosses the line.

    This is cruel and nasty.

    Liberals want to go after those approaching death and tell them they can't pray to their God?

    Ok...bring it on....I will enjoy this fight.
     
  7. Philosoft

    Philosoft Orthogonal, Tangential, Tenuously Related

    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    180
    Faith:
    Atheist
    What was that called? The shut-up-and-pretend-like-Christianity-is-the-only-religion-in-America era?
     
  8. Voegelin

    Voegelin Reactionary

    Messages:
    19,713
    Likes Received:
    345
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Why must you distort, on thread after thread, what people say?

    Have you no defense for your radical secularism?

    I don't care if people in these Senior Centers shave their heads, become Hari Krishnas and start banging on drums. That is their business. If they grow nice Hari Krishna flowers, I will probably buy some. I know I will stop in and talk to them to see what they are all about.

    Other religions don't scare me as they apparently terrify you. The more the better is my motto. Let ideas flourish!

    A while back I sold two gilded goat heads from Nepal to an elderly lady who lived outside Gilroy California (I was out of human heads because they were a little dicey to get out of Nepal and import into America...good sellers however).

    Any ways....this lady was going in for a rather serious operation and, as she always does, she told the hospital she is a Rastafarian and, if the operation didn't turn out so good to please contact a Rastafarian priest (or whatever they are called).

    She told me if things were that bad, she just didn't want to see her Lutheran minister and thought a big black guy with dreadlocks smoking a joint might be what she needed.

    Yeah...I am rambling...but I have a purpose...

    Edited by Noddingdog to remove blasphemous content.

    It is not the end of the world if a Christian goes to some senior center which is almost all Christian and preaches to them!It is not a Federal court case! It is none of your business nor mine.


    btw...I've brought Buddhist stuff into senior centers, shown then how to make Kentucky corn broom brooms and just gone in and shot the breeze with them.

    Why? Because this is what life is about. Sharing...making sure the elderly are part of life. Making sure they have as wide range of stimuli as the rest of us.

    I am so sick of intolerants who want this or that censored. If a 90 year old man wants to hear that Good Old Time Gospel he grew up with, if a lady his age, or younger!, wants to dance with him to Gospel music and listen to a fire and brimstone preacher...all I got to say is...

    GOD BLESS THEM!

    And may God bring pestilence, a rain of frogs, hordes of locus, festering itching boils, octopus seat and assorted other annoyances on those who would run to an ACLU lawer to stop them from those moments of joy before they die.
     
  9. armed2010

    armed2010 New Member

    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    132
    Politics:
    US-Others
    Faith:
    Atheist
    You do realise the ACLU has helped christians who have had their rights restricted, right?
     
  10. Voegelin

    Voegelin Reactionary

    Messages:
    19,713
    Likes Received:
    345
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Oh please. Don't insult our intelligence. The ACLU was created because Attorney General Palmer kicked back communists to Russia who had touched off over 30 bombs across America for they May Day celebrations in 1919 (including one bomb at his house designed to kill his wife and kids).

    Baldwin and other Soviet sympathizers decided to use our laws against us; to use our good will against us.

    You read some history on Baldwin, Reingold, Zinoview, Trotsky, Radek, Goldman, the Cheka and Willi Munzenberg.

    The ACLU has never been a defender of the Christian faith. Just the opposite. Roger Baldwin said, in 1935,:
    The goal of the ACLU at its founding was to use the good will of Americans against the American system of law, to turn the constitution on its head, to purge the Christian faith from the public square and to tear down and destroy any civic institution which is not run by the state.
     
  11. Brimshack

    Brimshack New Member

    Messages:
    7,354
    Likes Received:
    320
    Faith:
    Atheist
  12. TruthTraveler

    TruthTraveler Amos 9:6 | Psalm 103

    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Protestant
  13. burrow_owl

    burrow_owl Senior Contributor

    Messages:
    8,617
    Likes Received:
    248
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    "Besides, the law, which is ALL written by judges not elected officials, on this matter, says you are wrong. All religious expression must be banned. It is not a question of equal protection."

    that's quite wrong. the religious stuff is allowed so long as the center provides equal access to other faiths.
     
  14. feral

    feral Dostoyevsky was right

    Messages:
    3,376
    Likes Received:
    282
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    UK-Liberal-Democrats
    Faith:
    Agnostic
    Personally I could care less. My family lives in a very small down and they host religious programs at the public school and have church meetings in the township hall. I think that's fine, but if I ever try to open a Muslim club, have cirlce scouts meetings or anything else they had better allow it. Permitting just one religion public space is not right.
    As for these people...they can't just meet at someones house or rent a private center, pavillion, etc?
     
  15. Philosoft

    Philosoft Orthogonal, Tangential, Tenuously Related

    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    180
    Faith:
    Atheist
    I distort nothing. The years that publicly imposed Christianity went virtually unchallenged has left you numb to the plight of other religions. Your football game prayers, your public-square Nativity scenes, all bits and pieces of Chrisitanity that, according to all-knowing Voegelin, no one has any right to have a problem with.
    I have no desire to remove public displays of religion by individuals. I have said this many times. You either ignore it or offer some laughable argument that Roy Moore is somehow only acting in an individual capacity.
    Heck, teach world religions in junior high from a historical perspective for all I care. Just don't tell me that Christianity-dominated ceremonies are somehow models of religious pluralism.
    Well, aren't you just the model of tolerance? Hey, I have obese, black, lesbian friends, too.
    You still don't get it, do you? I am in favor of religion. Millions of people need it. I do not wish to take it from them. My only issue is the extent to which the government, and its agents, can suggest which religion we should belong to.
    When does it become an issue? Ought they invite Louis Farrakhan for a jam session?
    Yeah? Well, I'm sick of people who have the force of religious majority behind them telling me I'm intolerant because I'd like a little more government neutrality, thank you very much.
     
    Brimshack likes this.
  16. Bushido216

    Bushido216 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,339
    Likes Received:
    128
    Marital Status:
    Engaged
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Senior Center? I thought it was a Community Center.

    In that case, it's ****.
     
  17. ByGrace

    ByGrace New Member

    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    34
    Faith:
    Christian
    I wouldnt let the aclu help me out of a burning building. I dont throw in with satan.

    as for the op, this is disgusting. This country is in shambles and I cant wait to depart it. My citizenship is in Heaven and this country is going down the toilet.
     
  18. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe New Member

    Messages:
    37,157
    Likes Received:
    616
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Agnostic
    And they couldn't even come up with an original-sounding acronym... :D
     
  19. ByGrace

    ByGrace New Member

    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    34
    Faith:
    Christian
    Heres one for ya, NGTH
     
  20. Noddingdog

    Noddingdog Noderator

    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    16
    Faith:
    Christian
    .:Forum Rule 4:.

    Rule No. 4 - No "Offensive" Posts, Links or Images

    4) You will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, racist, sexist, discriminatory, blasphemous, satanic or otherwise violative of any local or international laws, or anything that encourages drug use or relates to gambling. This includes links in your signature, profile, bookmarks as well as posted images, photos and avatars. This includes posts in Christian-only forums that promote behavior considered "sin" in the bible. Avatars, fake email addresses or usernames that are blatantly offensive will result in an automatic ban. Staff will ultimately decide if something is appropriate or not.



    Blasphemy is clearly not permitted at Christian Forums. If you want to stay active here, please abide by the rules. Any more of this in here and this thread will have to be closed.

    We now return to the discussion topic.
     
Loading...