Secret rapture? David Pawson says no!

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Hi all,
One thing that had me convinced of the pre-trib rapture was in Rev. 3, where the church of Philadelphia is told, ‘I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world’ as being a reference to the last-days church escaping the great tribulation in the rapture, being a type of church as part of a succession of churches described as being equivalent to the progression of churches throughout the whole church age.
This only works if you believe that this theory of churches throughout the church-age is true. It can also mean that specifically, the church of Philadelphia, the actual church, was to escape the Roman persecution, which would sweep through the entire Roman world at that time.
I have always had doubts about a secret pre-trib rapture, as it seems to conflict with Matthew 24, when it says that Christ’s return will be very dramatic, visible and worldwide in scope. As David Pawson points out, (in his book ‘When Jesus Returns) what’s the point of having all that information in the book of Revelation, after chapter 3, if the church is missing? Who is going to be reading it? The converted Jews? Pawson writes that the converted Jews and Church are one unity in the book of Rev. referred to as the elect or saints.
I have been influenced in my thinking by writers such as Grant R. Jeffrey and Derek Walker, who both teach the reasons for a pre-trib rapture. However, as I had thought before, the church escaping the coming wrath of God is about escaping the condemnation of hell and wrath of judgement, rather than a specific escape to heaven in a time of tribulation.
There is also a strong indicator in chapter 14 of Rev. where the text states, that Jesus is soon to return and for the saints to persevere.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the church will remain on the earth all the way through until the return of Christ, to experience a time of terrible persecution, although likely to be protected from the worst of it by God, perhaps, in a similar way that the Israelites being protected from the tribulation which plagued the Egyptians during the plagues of Egypt.

One last thing, is that the detailed outlining of events, such as a seven year tribulation and a mid-term division, and return of Christ after the seven year period, goes against the ruling that nobody knows the time of the return of Christ, as you could work it out by the indicators such as the antichrist entering the rebuilt temple halfway through the tribulation; being able to work out the times of events would go against the ruling. I tend to go back to a previous stance, which is that Revelation is both historicist and future at the same time.
I believe that Mystery Babylon and the Great Harlot is Rome and the Babylonian Church.
The two witnesses are both the witness of historic Judaism and Christianity, and Elijah and Enoch returned. And as Luther thought, the antichrist is the head of the Church of Babylon throughout the history of the church age, - and the figure involved with the imposition of the mark of the beast in the latter days. One world religion and political power will be centred on Rome.
I do however think that Daniel's 70th week has been put on hold until the last seven years of history, before the millenium. The temple to be re-built, and desecrated mid-week. But, one thing that is never clear, is when exactly the rapture would occur, if it was to be, just before the great tribulation of seven years?

 

[Biblewriter]

The problem with citing human authorities for any debate about the scriptures is that It is possible to draw up an impressive list of "authorities" on each side of essentially every debate that has ever plagued the church.

 

[Partaker of Christ]

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Although this was a letter to the Church in Philadelphia, the Lord says; Rev 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. So, I guess this applies to all the Churches. Jesus also says "[FONT=&quot]Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly:"[/FONT]

Those who have kept the word of His patience.
I am not at all a Greek scholar, but the word 'kept' is in the Aorist tense and indicative mood, so I believe that this is a simple past action.

" I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

Jesus does not say that He will keep them from the tribulation of the saints, but from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[FONT=&quot]For me that could well mean post trib, pre wrath.[/FONT]

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Although this was a letter to the Church in Philadelphia, the Lord says; Rev 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. So, I guess this applies to all the Churches. Jesus also says "[FONT=&quot]Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly:"[/FONT]

Those who have kept the word of His patience.
I am not at all a Greek scholar, but the word 'kept' is in the Aorist tense and indicative mood, so I believe that this is a simple past action.

" I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

Jesus does not say that He will keep them from the tribulation of the saints, but from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[FONT=&quot]For me that could well mean post trib, pre wrath.[/FONT]

Yes, i forgot that it says ..Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
it does seem to indicate a rapture away from the trying time that comes upon the world. I thought that it dosn't really add up to just the Roman world, but to the whole world.
i suspect that the church will go through some times of trouble, as what would be the point of sending the Revelation to the churches, if the church will not be there to experience chapters 6-18 of Rev. The rapture might occur before the bowls of wrath are poured out upon the earth.
There are also the various passages which describe, one is taken the other left behind. There seems to be a unity of opinion regarding this topic. The question is, when exactly does it occur?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[josephearl]

How else can we show the full bowls are poued out twice? Rev. 18 and Rev. 16. Rev. 16's scene ends as to the final vial, but then Babylon soon gets remembered again by God. Rev. 18 shows that rememberiing Babylon's iniquities -causing her plagues to come down on her. The OT pattern is that when God remembers the iniquities of a place, is when it is time to punish that location.

I do not see what you are saying here. I read the scripture and cannot find the place that says the bowls will be poured out twice.

1 Cor. 15 shows that all die in Adam, so all that sleep (all saints) are in Christ. This would mean that even the two witnesses must die in Christ before the Lord will come with all of the sleeping saints from heaven. The resurrection of the just can't happen before the two witnesses rise at the 7th trumpet hour.
All get changed of the sleeping saints at the same time.

Rev. 14 shows those that die in the Lord are gone after by the beast and the dragon. As mentioned in the first post on here, a pre-trib rapture is not going to occur.

There is not a separate rapture for OT saints and the pre-trib or mid-trib church, even Adam died in Christ.

1 Cor. 15:22
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

1 Thess. 4:16
"...the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

The scripture saying all die in Adam refers to the death that occurs when we sin. It is not a literal death of the body and has no bearing on the rapture. I also do not see any reason how the resurrection of the 2 dead witnesess can be tied to the rapture. Maybe I have not understood what it is you are trying to say.

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

Secret rapture?

Some people who hold to the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view feel that 1 Thessalonians 5:2b supports the idea of a pre-trib, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some thieves like to rob homes via what's called a "home invasion", which is quite obvious, and which can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (cf. John 10:10, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The scriptures themselves make clear that Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27, cf. Matthew 24:43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15); "Behold, he cometh with clouds [cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Instead, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually). Compare: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3b). Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the final stage of the tribulation, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

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With regard to Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:3, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation the unsaved world could come to believe that Jesus has already returned and is already on the earth (cf. Matthew 24:24-26).

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the terrible reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11).

This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12).

The False Prophet's appearing figuratively "like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11) could mean that he will present himself to the world as being a Christian, for Jesus refers to Christians as being figurative "lambs" (John 21:15b, Luke 10:3). Also, Jesus warns Christians against false prophets who falsely present themselves as being "sheep" (Matthew 7:15), meaning falsely present themselves as being Christians, for Christians are figurative "sheep" (Matthew 10:16).

Or the False Prophet could even present himself to the world as being Jesus himself, for Jesus appears figuratively as a lamb in Revelation 5:6. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb 27 other times in the book of Revelation: in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 6:1, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 7:10, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 7:17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 14:4 (two times), Revelation 14:10, Revelation 15:3, Revelation 17:14 (two times), Revelation 19:7, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 21:14, Revelation 21:22, Revelation 21:23, Revelation 21:27, Revelation 22:1, and Revelation 22:3. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb four other times in the New Testament: in John 1:29, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, and 1 Peter 1:19.

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During the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 13:3b-4,8), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny a second coming of Jesus. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God (Jesus in Islam -- Wikipedia). For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God, and he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). (This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen: Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-17, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society.

The False Prophet could miraculously call fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) are the true God (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be a counterfeit of how the true prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person that the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)".

The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53, cf. 1 Peter 2:24), and rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Psalms 16:10, cf. Acts 2:31). He died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament from its first book, Genesis (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), they could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus the Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have the knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4).

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine Son of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20-20:3).

So the second coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the unsaved people of the world. They will have been expecting to wage war against only what they will consider to be (in their words) "that cruel Old Testament god, YHWH", and expecting to wage war against him with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9b). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus (Matthew 24:30b, Revelation 1:7), sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11).

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20). "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come" (Revelation 22:17).

When the unsaved people of the world realize, the moment they see the real Jesus returning, how thoroughly they have been duped (by the devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet), and when they see in the sky all the holy, mighty angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) of the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the unsaved people of the world could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15).

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

One thing that had me convinced of the pre-trib rapture was in Rev. 3, where the church of Philadelphia is told, ‘I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world’ as being a reference to the last-days church escaping the great tribulation in the rapture, being a type of church as part of a succession of churches described as being equivalent to the progression of churches throughout the whole church age.

This only works if you believe that this theory of churches throughout the church-age is true. It can also mean that specifically, the church of Philadelphia, the actual church, was to escape the Roman persecution, which would sweep through the entire Roman world at that time.

That's right.

Note that there's not even any such thing as "the church age", because the church will continue on the earth throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21). The church will continue on the earth during the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4), and then during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), and then on the subsequent new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

The seven epistles to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b), just as Paul wrote epistles to seven different literal first-century local church congregations in seven places in the Roman Empire: Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica.

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) would be kept safe from a persecution which would come upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman Emperor Domitian. For John saw his Revelation vision near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and according to many historians, Domitian heavily persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of ten days (Revelation 2:10).

The first-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (ek) that persecution, for, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the earth) in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the classroom) in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can still be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first-century persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

I have always had doubts about a secret pre-trib rapture, as it seems to conflict with Matthew 24, when it says that Christ’s return will be very dramatic, visible and worldwide in scope.

That's right.

Note that nothing at all in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture. Instead, the Bible makes clear that the rapture will be immediately after the tribulation. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry in the clouds the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5), before they mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of partial preterism or full preterism or historicism or spiritualism) could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful physical suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

As David Pawson points out, (in his book ‘When Jesus Returns) what’s the point of having all that information in the book of Revelation, after chapter 3, if the church is missing? Who is going to be reading it? The converted Jews?

The pre-trib view sometimes claims that Revelation 4:1 shows the rapture of the church after chapter 3. But Revelation 4:1 refers to only the apostle John, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to only the apostle Paul, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century. Neither Revelation 4:1 nor Corinthians 12:2 is referring to the future rapture of the entire church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 4:1's "After this" simply means after John had been instructed in Revelation chapters 2-3 what to write to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b).

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Also, the pre-trib view sometimes claims that the lack of the word "church" after chapter 3 means that the church will be gone from the earth. But no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1-15.

The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters are referring to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b).

The church (in the general sense) will definitely be in the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 (and Matthew 24), because believers will definitely be in the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 and Matthew 24 (e.g. Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Also, just as the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation 19 includes references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should admit that Revelation chapters 6-18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

Pawson writes that the converted Jews and Church are one unity in the book of Rev. referred to as the elect or saints.

What "converted Jews", i.e. what scripture, is being referred to?

Converted Jews have always become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13), just as converted Gentiles have always become part of Israel. For just as all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), so all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

Pawson writes that the converted Jews and Church are one unity in the book of Rev. referred to as the elect or saints.

By "the converted Jews", is the 144,000 meant? If so, the 144,000 are indeed Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they're indeed members of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They're the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4b) in the sense of being its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They're male virgins (Revelation 14:4) who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century and who could all be alive on the earth today. They will all be alive on the earth when the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 begins, and so they will all enter into it (Revelation 7:4, Revelation 9:4), just as all the rest of the church alive on the earth when the tribulation begins will enter into it (cf. Revelation 7:9,14), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Mark 13:24-27).

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But the 144,000 can include both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. For just as all genetic Jews in the church remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).

A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's a part of, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the twelve tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:5-8), because the Israel the 144,000 are from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes (Genesis 49:28) which include Dan (Genesis 49:17), but rather spiritual Israel, which is different than genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-8), and which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

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All obedient believers will be spiritually protected during the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). And some in the church will also be physically protected during some or all of that time, while others in the church won't be physically protected during that time.

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others in the church, will be physically protected so that they will survive the first stage (Revelation 6) of the coming tribulation, while many others in the church won't be physically protected, so that they will die during that first stage, and their souls will enter into heaven (Revelation 7:9,14).

After the first stage is over, the 144,000 part of the church will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection (Revelation 9:4) before the seventh seal of the tribulation is unsealed (Revelation 8:1). Out of the seventh seal will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). The events of the first six trumpets up to Revelation 9:19 will be the second stage of the tribulation. The seal that the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all other believers receive: Ephesians 1:13b) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4). Everyone else in the church still alive on the earth at that time won't necessarily be physically protected, but at least some will be.

This physical protection of some in the church but not others in the church during the coming tribulation will be similar to how the first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) was physically protected during one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 3:10) while the first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) wasn't physically protected during that one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 2:10).

After the second stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, the 144,000 male virgins part of the church (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies into heaven: Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11) will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 12:5; Revelation 14:4-5, TR), right before the third stage of the tribulation, the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), begins (Revelation 12:5-6, Revelation 13:5-8). This 3.5-year time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will remain up in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, TR) during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-10) while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents all those in the church who will flee into wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of the woman's seed (Revelation 12:17) who will be all those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). These seven vials will be the fourth and final stage (Revelation 16) of the tribulation.

Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 while remaining on the earth. They are those who will be alive on the earth at the second coming of Jesus to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (cf. Psalms 91) throughout the entire tribulation, without having to have been part of the 144,000.

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The number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 is a literal number of people, which will consist of twelve groups with 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8).

Similarly, the 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

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There is such a thing as the best part of the church, for the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church is the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). This doesn't create a schism in the church, for as believers the 144,000 are still an integral part of the one and only body of the church made up of all believers (Ephesians 4:4-6). But in this one body, all believers "have not the same office" (Romans 12:4); some believers have better offices/gifts than others (1 Corinthians 12:28-31).

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During the coming tribulation, the unsaved (and the apostate) people who will be assigned to have the mark of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) placed on their foreheads (instead of on their right hands) (Revelation 13:16) could be those who will be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian (Revelation 13:4) and a Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbidding marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17) on their foreheads, this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

I had thought before, the church escaping the coming wrath of God is about escaping the condemnation of hell and wrath of judgement, rather than a specific escape to heaven in a time of tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and it applies to God's wrath no matter whether it's temporal or eternal (John 3:36, Revelation 14:10-11).

The pre-trib view sometimes claims that the entire tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 will be God's wrath, so that the church can't be here for it, because of 1 Thessalonians 5:9. But note that nothing requires that the entire tribulation will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be God's wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will be alive on the earth during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4). Most of the tribulation could be the wrath of Satan working through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster upon the earth, just like when Satan was allowed to work through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster upon righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The first five seals of the tribulation (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, because after the first four seals are over the martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11b), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus unsealing the seals of the tribulation (Revelation 6) doesn't mean that the events that are unsealed will be God's wrath; it simply means that every event that's unsealed will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, cf. Revelation 6:12b), whereas the day of the Lord/day of wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15) won't begin until the second coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19 (see Revelation 19:15b), immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:29-30).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. Just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quotes in Revelation 6:17.

After the sixth seal of the tribulation will occur the seventh seal of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1). And out of the seventh seal of the tribulation will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). None of the events of the first six trumpets from Revelation 8 up to the end of Revelation 9 are referred to by John as being God's wrath. Also, it doesn't say that any of those events will be directed only at the unsaved; all those events could affect mankind in general, both the saved and the unsaved.

The events of the fifth trumpet will be the work of a swarm of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the events of the sixth trumpet will be the work of a huge army of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the river Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets of Revelation chapters 8-9, this could simply be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy one-third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause one-third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:4,9).

God allows saved people to be affected by the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10), knowing that even if they're killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but even gain (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8).

The events of the first six trumpets from Revelation 8 up to the end of Revelation 9 will all happen before the start of the 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian (Satanic) reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18). And the events of Revelation chapters 8-9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then he could claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make mankind suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind. In this way, Satan could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). The seven vials of God's wrath will then be poured out upon the followers of the Antichrist as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7) during the prior 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5,7,10, Revelation 14:12-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation on the earth just for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22) and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). People in the church will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4, 2 Timothy 4:2-4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). People in the church will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15b, Revelation 20:4).

And all of this, of course, will be the wrath of Satan against the church (Revelation 12:17), not the wrath of God against the church. For the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath does come subsequently in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the final stage of the tribulation, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Only after the seventh vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2) will Jesus Christ return and bring the second-coming day of wrath/day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). And before that wrath begins, again because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-13) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he brings the second-coming wrath of God upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

After that, Jesus and the obedient portion of the just-resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will be on the earth ruling the surviving unsaved nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2). During that time, Jesus will have to employ his wrath against the surviving unsaved nations in order to bring them into forced submission to him (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2).

After the 1,000 years are over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), but it will be defeated by God's wrath against it (Ezekiel 38:19-23, Revelation 20:9b). After the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion, the earth will remain in existence for at least seven more years (Ezekiel 39:9b). After those at least seven more years are over, the white throne judgment will occur, in which all the unsaved of all times will be resurrected and judged and cast into God's eternal wrath of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

One last thing, is that the detailed outlining of events, such as a seven year tribulation and a mid-term division, and return of Christ after the seven year period, goes against the ruling that nobody knows the time of the return of Christ, as you could work it out by the indicators such as the antichrist entering the rebuilt temple halfway through the tribulation; being able to work out the times of events would go against the ruling.

Matthew 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37b,42b,44b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually), his second coming will happen when they aren't expecting it (cf. Revelation 3:3b). In the immediate context of Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus suggests that it's possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future some men will know the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens.

Compare the following two verses:

"...of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36).
"...the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11).

If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of Jesus' second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the second coming happens. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13); he can currently guide believers into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens. For, again, Jesus suggests that it's possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of Jesus' second coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15; Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

I believe that Mystery Babylon and the Great Harlot is Rome and the Babylonian Church.

By "Rome and the Babylonian Church", are you referring to the RCC? If so, note that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (as well as of other churches) are certainly included in what "Babylon" represents, she represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only place on the earth where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the RCC the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:7,9-10).

The symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11) and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire all that "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17a) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19; cf. Isaiah 14:17), possibly with nukes (and possibly with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17b) of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, right before Jesus Christ's second coming from heaven (Revelation 19:2-20:3, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Satan/Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12,17), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

But how could Lucifer possibly convince the ten kings to burn up their own world? How could he convince them to "hate the harlot" (Revelation 17:16) when she represents their very own world-system? What Lucifer could do is revert to the ancient lies of Gnosticism, an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is utterly evil, while only that which is pure spirit is good. Gnosticism teaches the lie that all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in heaven, the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the Creator of the material universe and all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became the main enemy of the early church, just as it will become the main enemy of the end-time church during the coming tribulation. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

So near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, right before the second coming of Jesus in Revelation 19:7-21, what Lucifer could do is say to the Antichrist and the ten kings something like: "The great battle of humanity against YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, cf. Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so humanity will finally be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this evil material universe, and return to the Pleroma. So let us completely destroy this awful prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, completely burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up everything, all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break every chain of attachment to this vile material realm, that we might more freely ascend back into our rightful place in the Pleroma".

Of course this will be a total lie. For at his second coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, cf. Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:1-6). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1).

And then God himself will come down out of the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4). For there's nothing evil in itself about God's material creation. What he's created was created very good (cf. Genesis 1:31). And Jesus, God himself, became flesh (John 1:1,14), and remains flesh even after his resurrection into immortality as a man (Luke 24:39). And Jesus remaining wholly without sin even in the flesh (Hebrews 4:15) proves that there's nothing evil in itself about matter.

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

I believe that Mystery Babylon and the Great Harlot is Rome and the Babylonian Church.

Some people feel that instead of being Rome, the symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents only the United States. But, while the corrupt aspects of the U.S. (as well as of other countries) are certainly included in what "Babylon" represents, she represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place on the earth where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:7,9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by the "Babylon" in Revelation may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of the corrupt world-system represented by "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the second leg of the corrupt world-system represented by "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the third leg of the corrupt world-system represented by "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the first century (Matthew 23:35-38).

Ultimately, all three legs of the corrupt world-system represented by "Babylon" could become headquartered in the literal rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist could make the capital of the world during his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7). He could build a central temple to himself (and Lucifer/Satan) there, for a temple will be built to wickedness in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the destruction of New York City and Washington DC by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what's sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7), and two nuclear bombs were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. at some point in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking God and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women and children in New York's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

New York City and Washington DC could be destroyed by terrorist nuclear bombs before the Antichrist even arises on the world stage. For there's someone currently keeping the Antichrist from taking over the world; it's only when this "restrainer" is taken out of the way that the Antichrist will be able to take over the world (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8a, Revelation 13:7). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:1-3). The powerful angel restraining the Antichrist could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). At the same time, Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that the U.S. supports Israel.

Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough so as to allow the Antichrist to take over the world, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S., just enough to allow both New York City and Washington DC to be nuked by terrorists. This could happen shortly before or after the war of Revelation 6:4-8, and could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its financial and political capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering the U.S. dollar close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy and military. Its days as a superpower will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage and begin his takeover of the world (Revelation 13:7).

If New York City and Washington DC are attacked with nukes, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadists? Or could the nuke-attack on the U.S. be merely a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadist attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to arise and take over the world?

Could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal secretly train and equip some Islamic-jihadist group in Pakistan with two nukes and the means to get them into the U.S. and detonate them in New York City and Washington DC? For example, could the two nukes be secretly built in North Korea, secretly sold to Iran, secretly delivered to Iran via a plane crossing China, secretly handed off by Iran to the cabal's Islamic-jihadist group in Pakistan, secretly boated over to Thailand, and then secretly brought into the U.S. via two shipping containers from Thailand into the Port Newark, New Jersey Container Terminal?

Could the two shipping containers have been lined with enough lead so as to thwart any radiation-detectors at the Terminal? And could these shipping containers have been filled mostly with tile, kitty litter, or bananas, which give off a natural radiation, so that if the containers are opened up and checked by hand for radiation it will be thought that the radiation is just from the tile, kitty litter, or bananas, and not from nuclear bombs packed inside lead sarcophagi hidden in the center of the containers?

Could both containers in this way get past U.S. inspection? (And could the cabal also be careful to have its own hand-picked and extremely-well bribed and blackmailed inspectors on duty when the containers are passing through U.S. inspection, to make sure that the containers aren't among the relatively few which get scanned by x-rays?)

After passing inspection, could one of the containers then be trucked to a New Jersey warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a smaller, lead-lined, tile-filled delivery truck, which will then be driven into the very heart of Manhattan, where the nuke will be detonated? And could the other container be trucked to an Alexandria, Virginia warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a large SUV? Could the SUV then drive to a small, local airport in northern Virginia, where the nuke will be loaded in the dead of night onto a small, private jet? Could the jet then fly in the dead of night over the very heart of Washington DC, where the nuke will be detonated?

(And even besides this, could a third nuke-containing shipping container from Thailand end up in a vast shipping-container lot in the Port of Long Beach, California, right next to Los Angeles? And could the cabal not even bother to have the nuke extracted and driven into or flown over downtown L.A., but simply have the nuke detonated right there in Long Beach harbor, so that it completely destroys the major west coast port of the U.S., and wipes out much of hugely-populated Los Angeles and Orange Counties? And could the "Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked L.A. because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for inappropriate contentographic video production, so that L.A. has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?)

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Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, it may not be until the very end of the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, and at the second coming of Jesus, that the entire city of Jerusalem will be destroyed (Luke 19:44). For at the very end of the coming tribulation the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the armies of the world will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before the second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21), and at the second coming there will be tremendous earth changes which will occur in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all the man-made structures in Jerusalem, including the third Jewish temple (which will be built), and the Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall), being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout Jerusalem (Luke 19:44).

Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4) during his 1,000-year physical reign on the earth with the just-resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

The two witnesses are both the witness of historic Judaism and Christianity, and Elijah and Enoch returned.

Regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12), they could be Moses and Elijah, for the two people seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). They could come down from heaven mid-tribulation just as they came down from heaven at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which will be caused by the two witnesses (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues caused by Moses and Elijah in the Old Testament (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20, 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b), and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, the dead body of Lazarus was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

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The two witnesses will bring their plagues upon the world during the (literal) 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3) of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6). That's why the reign of the Antichrist will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15).

The plagues which the two witnesses will bring upon the earth (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the second woe/sixth trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). The two witnesses will be taken up into heaven before the seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

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The two witnesses may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring awful plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because at least two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could also be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9), for the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

And as Luther thought, the antichrist is the head of the Church of Babylon throughout the history of the church age, - and the figure involved with the imposition of the mark of the beast in the latter days.

Regarding the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2), it will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to humans, because otherwise they couldn't tell whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17), and because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads, and probably by scarification. For one of the definitions of "charagma" (the original Greek word used in Revelation 13:16 to refer to the mark) is a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the name of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) "or" the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hands (probably on the palms) of people "or" on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hands of some people and on the foreheads of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the mark of the Antichrist won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the mark of the Antichrist or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, they will subsequently be resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the church) at Jesus Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus himself in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

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In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palms, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have the initials of their loved ones placed by scarification on their palms (cf. also Isaiah 49:16). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their foreheads, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the foreheads of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the mark of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's Christ/God, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is Christ/God: 1 John 2:22).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hands or foreheads, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hands or foreheads. The gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18). But because some people could refuse to have this number placed on their bodies, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", "WWW", "VVV", "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", and it's transliterated into English either as a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" also has a numerical value of 6, in English gematria.

In a curious coincidence, "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb with which the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will burn up the cities of the world near the end of the coming tribulation (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has already been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has already been placed across many UPC codes on products, are harbingers of when Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2c, cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist's placing of his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's own, personal name (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses currently having "WWW", nor by some products currently having "|| || ||", because Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people themselves will be given the Antichrist's mark, either on their right hands or their foreheads.

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

The temple to be re-built, and desecrated . . .

That's right.

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation. It will coexist with the church like the second Jewish temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). It could be built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem by the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Shortly after the ultra-Orthodox Jews complete the third temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22). Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a) permitting them to keep the temple and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a huge wall between the temple and the southern part of the Temple Mount, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Shortly after that reign, at the very end of the coming tribulation, the temple could be completely destroyed (Matthew 24:2), along with the entire city of Jerusalem (Luke 19:44). For the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the armies of the world will attack and pillage Jerusalem right before the second coming of Jesus Christ (Zechariah 14:2-21), and at the second coming there will be tremendous earth changes which will occur in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all the man-made structures in Jerusalem, including the temple, and the Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall), being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another (Luke 19:44).

Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4) and he will build a fourth temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the coming millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) as the second temple served for the church in the first century (Luke 24:53) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (cf. Revelation 7:15).

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One reason that the third Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is because the current, secular government of Israel has been careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina) in order to clear the Temple Mount for the building of a third Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel, because Muslim armies and militias could in their total rage attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad, invading Israel simultaneously from three directions, overwhelming its defenses and quickly overrunning its tiny territory, defeating it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel are no doubt aware of this danger to Israel should the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever be destroyed by Israelis, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that the third Jewish temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the first and second Jewish temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could eventually be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel with its capital in the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and to build on the Temple Mount a third Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

(This could point to another reason why the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a third temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a third temple.)

The ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel are currently well-armed, for they're allowed by Israel to even have machine guns for self-defense against the Palestinians. If the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel start to get squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank) and East Jerusalem, because of some "peace deal" handing those areas over to a Palestinian "state", the ultra-Orthodox Jews in their rage could resort to violence, for they (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea and Jerusalem as being the historically most important and most holy parts of the land of Israel promised by God to the Jews since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13).

A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea and East Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from actually requiring any such hindrance (instead, the U.S. simply gives lip service in support of a hindrance). But if pressure from the Arab world's masses for a Palestinian state becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state.

If the IDF then starts forcing the evacuation of all the settlements, this could so enrage the ultra-Orthodox Jews they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, all armed with machine guns, and led by three huge bulldozers they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. They could then begin to build a third Jewish temple and declare the walled Old City of Jerusalem to be the capital of a new, purely ultra-Orthodox state of Israel, where the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law will be the law, and where no non-kosher person or thing will be allowed within the walls of Old Jerusalem.

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could help tip the scales so that the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel will become violent is the rising up of a false, miracle-working ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel. He could rise up and say something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the reaction of the Muslims when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham.

"Our God gave us back the Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into such a high state of religious zeal that they will all without any hesitation or fear march in their tens of thousands upon the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God for his great victory.

Something else that could help tip the scales with regard to the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant. It could be found, for example, buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step").

The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the secular Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, all armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it's out and the IDF troops actually see it, it's unlikely that they're going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount; they'll be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it's unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could even order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical-weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #1:

The temple to be re-built, and desecrated . . .

Some people claim that this is impossible, because they say that now only the church is the temple of God. But while the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it co-exists as the temple of God with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole-temple can currently co-exist with all these other temples of God, then the church-as-a-whole-temple will be able to co-exist with the future, third-earthly-literal temple building which the scriptures show will exist during the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4), which third temple will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the second temple was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and will perform animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12); that's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19); and that's why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the second temple's Mosaic practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26, cf. 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus Christ-rejecting motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Mosaic third temple in itself and Mosaic animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

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Acts 7:48-50 / Acts 17:24 is referring back to the principle of Isaiah 66:1-2a, which principle was true even at the time of Solomon's temple (2 Chronicles 2:6). It means that God is too big to dwell only in temples made with hands, not that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. For God did dwell in Solomon's temple (1 Kings 8:11), and God did dwell in the second temple (Matthew 23:21). And so nothing requires that God won't dwell in the third temple, which will be built during the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

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hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #4:

There are also the various passages which describe, one is taken the other left behind. There seems to be a unity of opinion regarding this topic. The question is, when exactly does it occur?

Note that Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 are referring to what will happen at the second coming of Jesus, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37b,39b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), when Jesus will bring the second-coming day of wrath/day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Those "taken" at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be people who will be taken where they will be killed and birds will eat their corpses (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (e.g. John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by the devil after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at the second coming, saved people will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), the purpose of which rapture meeting is so that saved people can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky to bring his second-coming wrath upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

Partaker of Christ said in post #3:

Although this was a letter to the Church in Philadelphia, the Lord says; Rev 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. So, I guess this applies to all the Churches.

Revelation 3:13 didn't mean that Revelation 3:10 applied to all seven of the literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b), for that would have contradicted Revelation 2:10. Instead, Revelation 3:13 was referring back to Revelation 3:12, which can apply to any believer of any time.

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Partaker of Christ said in post #3:

Jesus also says "Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly:"

While Revelation 3:10 (like Revelation 2:10) was fulfilled in the first century AD, the second coming of Jesus spoken of in Revelation 3:11 (and also in, for example, Revelation 16:15, spoken during the final stage of the future tribulation) hasn't yet been fulfilled. The second coming won't occur until Revelation 19:7-21, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, even though some 2,000 years will have passed between the time Revelation 3:11 was spoken in the first century AD and the time of the fulfillment of the second coming in our future, Jesus will still come "quickly" (Revelation 3:11), just as all the preceding events of the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-18) will unfold "shortly" after John saw his vision in the first century AD (Revelation 1:1,3). For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of the tribulation and second coming in Revelation chapters 6-19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (cf. 2 Peter 3:9).

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Partaker of Christ said in post #7:

I also do not see any reason how the resurrection of the 2 dead witnesess can be tied to the rapture.

The future raising of the two witnesses from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the resurrection of the church into immortality, but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40).

And the future ascension of the two witnesses into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the rapture of the church, but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the mortal bodies of Enoch and Elijah into heaven (Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11).

For the resuscitation and ascension of the two witnesses will occur during the tribulation, as part of the second woe/sixth trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), sometime before the seventh trumpet of the tribulation sounds (Revelation 11:15); and then out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet will come the seven plagues of the seven vials of the tribulation (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1), the final stage of the tribulation. But the resurrection of the church into immortality and its being raptured won't occur until after the entire tribulation is over, after the last trumpet/the trumpet of God has sounded at the second coming of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, the two witnesses, like Enoch and Elijah (and also like the apostles Paul and John did, temporarily: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend all the way into the third heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

---

Some people feel that the seventh trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15-19), which will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, must be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. But the "last trump" won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:29-31), which doesn't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Some people feel that Revelation 11:15-19 means the second coming will occur immediately after the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's (the beast's) 1,260-day worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) with the reign of Jesus (Revelation 11:15). But a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come" (Revelation 11:18), for the plagues of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1).

The vials of God's wrath could then last for 75 days, for they could begin immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36); and Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation:

-

Daniel 12:11-12 (and Revelation 16:15) could mean that exactly 1,335 (literal 24-hour) days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15), Jesus will return, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day.

If the 3.5 years/1,260 (literal 24-hour) days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6b) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 3.5 years/1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5-16:1), and if the first six vials will be poured out over a period of 30 days, then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12/Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus returns on the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12, Revelation 16:15). The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the armies of the world to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

But before Jesus defeats them, at his second coming the church (which is the elect: Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2) will first be raptured into the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) to be judged by the returned Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to him (Revelation 19:7).

-

Also, regarding Jesus' second coming, he won't return and take de facto, physical possession of the earth until after the seventh vial of the tribulation has occurred (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-20:3). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves to California to live in that house.

At Jesus' return, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry it (Revelation 19:7). Immediately after that, Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And because a "time" can last awhile, this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' return won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within the "time" of Revelation 11:18, because the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

 

[josephearl]

I have always had doubts about a secret pre-trib rapture, as it seems to conflict with Matthew 24, when it says that Christ’s return will be very dramatic, visible and worldwide in scope. As David Pawson points out, (in his book ‘When Jesus Returns) what’s the point of having all that information in the book of Revelation, after chapter 3, if the church is missing? Who is going to be reading it? The converted Jews? Pawson writes that the converted Jews and Church are one unity in the book of Rev. referred to as the elect or saints.

David makes some good points.

I recently read a point another author was making and really enjoyed his illustration. I will give my account of it.

Imagine the Bible describes in plain language the return of Christ as occuring in secrecy, silent, invisible unnoticable by the unsaved man. Then along comes a man teaching that when Christ returns its going to be with great noise, brilliant and that every man, woman and child will be aware of what is transpiring. Now what would your reaction to this teaching be?

 

[Biblewriter]

David makes some good points.

I recently read a point another author was making and really enjoyed his illustration. I will give my account of it.

Imagine the Bible describes in plain language the return of Christ as occuring in secrecy, silent, invisible unnoticable by the unsaved man. Then along comes a man teaching that when Christ returns its going to be with great noise, brilliant and that every man, woman and child will be aware of what is transpiring. Now what would your reaction to this teaching be?

My reaction is quite simple. This man has never understood that the New Testament describes more than one future return of Christ. See my current thread on this subject here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7636041-4/

I have not bothered to answer the arguments against this thread because they simply deny the indisputable nature of the points I made.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

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