Scriptural vs Unscriptural CCM

[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

What you mention has been a problem not just in CCM but also some supposed P&W music. So conceptually we're on the same page.

I disagree with some of your "unscriptural and / or have nothing to do with Scripture and / or could easily be a song to a boyfriend or girlfriend with a few edits" list.

Couple of specifics - Need You Know is clearly crying out to God. It is extremely parallel to some of the lamentation Psalms in theme and flow. How much more scripture relevant can you be than:

"How many times have you heard me cry out
"God please take this"?
How many times have you given me strength to
Just keep breathing?
Oh I need you
God, I need you now."


I Can Only Imagine - you pulled it out of context. They specifically mention the things you believe would happen, but why do you see dancing as an option that isn't biblical? Psalms 149 "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with timbrel and harp." If it's an option to praise Him on earth, why do you discount it as one in heaven???????

"Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
Will I dance for You Jesus or in awe of you be still
Will I stand in Your presence or to my knees will I
fall
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all "

There are more, but to say it again, I agree with your premise that there is a lot of "jesus is my boyfriend" or unclear Christian songs out there. I just disagree with much of your list.

 

[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

Well, I agree with some too!! That Jason Gray song, while really nice musically, is IMHO theologically incorrect. And "Hold Me", a song I also enjoy musically, isn't clearly indicative that she's talking about God. Very much a song that can have two meanings.

I'm not as aligned with your comments on Tobymac, though he is an interesting one. Certainly he has some songs that are clearly directed at his family, etc. But he has a lot that are also explicitly God focused (Lose My Soul, Steal My Show). The thing about Tobymac, I see few of his songs as true worship songs, but almost all of them are at least consistent Christian living songs. "Diverse City", which never explicitly mentions God, is completely in line with the scriptures and their instructions (neither Jew nor Gentile). Listen to a whole CD of his and there is no doubt he is Christian who worships our Lord, though you won't get that in every song.

In the end, I'm personally most bothered by supposed Praise songs that can also be interpreted as love songs to a person than I am about what I called Christian living songs. That and songs that miss theologically.

Good topic, BTW. Very enjoyable.

 

[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

The issue with tobymac is more that his music shouldn't be played as "Christian" music, even if he is Christian and some of his songs are explicitly God focused. His music is more like secular music that doesn't involve cursing and vulgar references.

Would you expand on that please? There are a couple of ways I could understand what you were trying to say, and I don't want to respond to an incorrect understanding.

 

[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

So I would interpret that as you believe only songs that are essentially Praise and Worship songs should be called "Christian". I would argue that is why we have a separate P&W designation.

I think it healthy that there are non-P&W songs that are written consistent and adhering to a Christian worldview. It is kind of like our lives on earth. While we may strive do everything to the glory of God, not every action we take is one you would identify as a specific praise or worship action. We work, play, study, socialize, etc. One of the big challenges I see is getting people to move past focusing on God only during Sunday morning and incorporating their relationship with him into all those other activities as well. You agree we should be doing that, right?

And if that is the case, then having songs that are not explicitly P&W but have God as part of them would be a good thing. And, IMHO, could still be called "Christian" even as they are not Praise songs. (But I also don't expect to sing those songs on Sunday morning!)

 

[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

In addition to the gospel, the Bible contains so much more information God wanted us to have. I would think songs related to any part of the Bible would be Christian.

 

[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

So when Tobymac specifically speaks to God in "Steal My Show", asking Him to take control of his work, a concept that is consistent with Christian teaching (and excluded by many other religions), by saying:

"My Life, my friends, my heart, It's all yours, God, take it away, my dreams
my fears, my family, my career, take it away, It's all yours, God
Take it away, take it away, It's You I want to live for"

and you know he professes to be a Christian, you assume it's general theism? I do not understand that.

It becomes particularly hard to understand when I look at the lyrics of some of the other songs you posted.

One Thing Remains never even mentions God, much less Christ. If you make a negative assumption about Toby, why do you make a positive one here, on less direct evidence? Oh, certainly you can grab the Christian context of the words "grave" and "debt is paid", but without clearly saying God or Christ, isn't this just another song that could be sung to a person, or another deity?

A City On a Hill never mentions Christ, only using Lord. From your logic, it could just as easily be about the Muslim God. Nothing Christian distinctive about that song.

I fear you are falling into the trap of letting musical style and preference influence how Christian you feel a song to be. I also see that issue in our church, and ironically in another thread you're participating in. The one if the poster who called anything not liturgy music to be "secular". You seem to understand the problem there - it's just a different point on the same path.

 

[WolfGate]

One more thought - I don't see "Christian" music meaning "music I would play in church". Based on our style of worship, we would not play Toby or many other popular artists.

The artists we use frequently in our church are Hillsong, Passion artists (Chris Tomlin, Matt Redmon, etc.), Lincoln Brewster, updated versions of old hymns, Gateway Worship. We don't play old hymns in traditional style and we don't play songs that sound like a romantic relationship with Christ. Not every song has to explicitly mention the gospel, but at least one song in every Sunday will. Some of the others will relate directly to the passage the Pastor will be speaking about.

But during youth functions, you will hear Toby, Newsboys, Skillet, Third Day and other artists that are Christians but we'd never play Sunday morning.

Finally, have you heard "Man of Sorrows" from Hillsong Lives latest release? From what I've seen of you, I think you'll enjoy it. We may be putting it into our Easter worship set (yep, thinking that far ahead already). You can google it and find it pretty easily.

 

[FreedByte]

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[FreedByte]

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[WolfGate]

just listened to it, sounds great!

Glad you enjoyed it! I like how it is very much a hymn, both lyrically and structurally, yet modern musically. I think it will have broad appeal in our congregation.

 

[FreedByte]

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