"scientific" view of afterlife

Status
Not open for further replies.

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
ThaiDuykhang said:
Not me but something called science.
I believe after one's death it's time for God's judgement. and "go to another universe" isn't a possible outcome. however science thinks differently!

There is no "go to another universe" in thought experiment you are talking about, in the many-worlds idea there is no interaction between these universes so if you are in one you cannot go to another. You are reading metaphysics into science, metaphysics are supernatural and cannot be investigated by science. All it states is that if you die in the universe you are in, you die, but there may be other universes where another "you" did not die. It says nothing about you moving to a universe where you will not die.
 
Upvote 0

ThaiDuykhang

Active Member
Jan 9, 2006
360
1
✟8,005.00
Faith
Christian
LewisWildermuth said:
All it states is that if you die in the universe you are in, you die, but there may be other universes where another "you" did not die. It says nothing about you moving to a universe where you will not die.

Did you read the article carefully? the article clearly states one don't know he's dead, though other may think he's dead. the person involved doesn't even know he has died in another universe.

according to that article, while you're discussing with me. one of us perhaps has already caught a stroke and died in another universe.
 
Upvote 0

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
ThaiDuykhang said:
Did you read the article carefully? the article clearly states one don't know he's dead, though other may think he's dead. the person involved doesn't even know he has died in another universe.
ThaiDuykhang said:


according to that article, while you're discussing with me. one of us perhaps has already caught a stroke and died in another universe.




Ummm, no. it does not say that.



“If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct, then the gun will eventually be triggered and the physicist will die.”



Here the scientist dies no matter what.



“If the many-worlds interpretation is correct, then at each run of the experiment the physicist will be split into a world in which he lives and one in which he dies. In the worlds where the physicist dies, he will cease to exist. However, from the point of view of the physicist, the experiment will continue running without his ceasing to exist, because at each branch, he will only be able to observe the result in the world in which he survives, and if many-worlds is correct, the physicist will notice that he never seems to die therefore proving himself to be immortal, or at least according to quantum immortality.”



Here the scientist in one universe dies and one in another universe lives. Since in you die you can’t know the result of the experiment (remember science is silent on the afterlife) the result would be that no matter how many times the experiment is run, in one of the universes the scientist will survive it, giving him the illusion of immortality as far as the experiment goes. But in another universe another scientist dies, since there is no interaction between these universes, the scientist that lives cannot know about all the others that died.



The last line of the article seems to argue against what you are saying the article says.



“He argues that under any sort of normal conditions, before someone dies they undergo a period of diminishment of consciousness, a non-quantum decline (which can be anywhere from seconds to minutes to years), and hence there is no way of establishing a continuous existence from this world to an alternate one in which the person continues to exist.”



See where it says “there is no way of establishing a continuous existence from this world to an alternate one”? That seems to contradict your idea of moving from one universe to another.
 
Upvote 0

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
shernren said:
(this by the way highlights one thing I've been saying for a while: Zen Buddhist / maya interpretations of quantum mechanics pose a far, far, far greater threat to Christian theistic thought in this postmodern time than anything evolutionism can come up with.)

After this short exchange with Thai, I would have to agree with you, it seems like too many people want to jump right into some zen like belief if this is true without thinking that this thought experiment has nothing to do with metaphysics, the soul or any other spiritual/theological position. :sigh:

Well, I'll try my best to show them that this is not the case.
 
Upvote 0

*Starlight*

Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time
Jan 19, 2005
75,337
1,471
37
Right in front of you *waves*
Visit site
✟133,073.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

ThaiDuykhang

Active Member
Jan 9, 2006
360
1
✟8,005.00
Faith
Christian
:: Starlight :: said:
That's interesting :) If it's true, then why do you want to fight it?
It says human can't feel death. that's one never finds himself in heaven purgatory or hell. that's against all Christian theology.

or many heavens, many hells.

or according to LewisWildermuth. instead of just entering heaven or hell, soul splits at death.
 
Upvote 0

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
ThaiDuykhang said:
or according to LewisWildermuth. instead of just entering heaven or hell, soul splits at death.

Now, not only are you misrepresenting what the article said, you misrepresented what I said. The article says nothing about souls, and I have not said that I think the soul splits.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
LewisWildermuth: What I'm referring to is not what Thai is talking about. He's got a completely wrong and whacked-out interpretation (no offense) of quantum physics, reading all of it from a single article about a controversial issue that cannot be proved / disproved experimentally under current theory, which no scientist would themselves believe. What I'm talking about is the damage that scientifically valid interpretations can do to Christianity.

For example: the idea that a particle lies in quantum superposition of all its possible states, and then collapses randomly to one of those states once its state is measured (the Measurement Principle) is taken by some scientists to mean that we as observers are in fact the ones responsible for "actualizing" the universe around us by making observations. That's the Indian concept of "maya" in modern, humanistic reinvention. That's why I want to go into quantum physics: to look at all this stuff first-hand and see what a Christian theist can make of it.

To Thai: Honestly, you've got the whole article wrong. I'll go into an indepth explanation of the many-universes idea and show you what it really means.

According to quantum physics, at the subatomic scale a particle may have many possible states at once, a phenomenon known as "superposition". For example, electrons have a property called "spin" which can be either "up" or "down". Before we measure an electron's spin, the electron's spin is both up and down. Simultaneously. But then, when we measure the electron's spin (using a device called a Stern-Gerlach analyzer) we will get only one result - either it is spinning up, or it's spinning down. (In technical terms the wavefunction collapses.) The probability of getting this result is random, distributed according to the physical state the system is in.

Another example is that the position of the electron itself may be randomly distributed within the atom, given certain constraints. There is something called an "electron probability cloud" that mathematicians can construct within an atom and where the cloud is more dense there is a greater possibility of finding the electron. It's something like saying that there's a 40% chance that I am in Malaysia, a 20% chance that I am in Singapore, a 2.56% chance that I am in China ... but before you've "measured" my position and found out where I am, I am mysteriously in Malaysia and Singapore and China and ... all at once. That's how an electron behaves in an atom until it has been detected / observed / measured.

The question is: what exactly has the measurement done? If we measured the electron in spin-up, what happened to its spin-down state? If we measured the electron in a particular place, what happened to it everywhere else? The many-worlds interpretation is that at the exact moment of the measurement, the universe split into two: one where the electron was measured in spin-up, say, and the other where the electron was measured in spin-down.

Here's what you need to know about the model:

1. It's an interpretation. The scientists look at the math they get in quantum mechanics and try to come up with some sort of physical rationale for the results they're getting: this is one of them. There are other hypotheses as well, and they all give the same math, so there's no reason to stick to this particular one at the moment.

2. When interpreted properly this isn't even testable. The scientist who just measured spin-up can't open a door, walk out of one universe, and ask the scientist in the next "Hey, did you measure spin-down?" There is no information exchange between the universes and there is no interaction between them. For all practical purposes there is only one universe to everyone who is inside a particular universe.

3. This phenomenon applies only to interactions at a very, very, very small scale of mass and spacetime. We're talking about atomic radius and electronic mass measurements. By comparison, a typical bullet will have at least 6 * 10^22 atoms (0.1 moles of iron; is my estimate on track?), which would amount to something like 10^25 (10 with 25 zeroes after it) times the mass of an electron. On that scale, the uncertainty in measurement of position is probably anywhere within a few picometers - narrower than the breadth of a hair and certainly not enough to save anyone pointing a gun to his or her head.

In the quantum suicide experiment, the scientist may escape death from the gun because the gun is being triggered by a measurement of an event at quantum scale. But in time he will simply age and die, no matter how many deaths he avoids. The aging processes of our body don't occur at quantum scale (as far as I know) and there's no question of there being a universe where all the right reactions magically occur to keep the scientist alive.

It is an interesting thought experiment, though.

(If you want to read further on this, here are a few keywords you might want to use:
"counterfactual definiteness"
"locality" / "violation of locality" / "nonlocality"
"EPR paradox"
"Bell's theorem" / "Bell's inequality"

But be warned that you will probably get hit by a morass of mathematics. This I've posted is quantum mechanics with kid gloves. The real reasoning behind the Many Worlds Interpretation is heavy and deep and I would recommend you go do some extensive reading before jumping to any more conclusions.)
 
Upvote 0

artybloke

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
5,222
456
65
North of England
✟8,017.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Politics
UK-Labour
You know, it occurs to me that one of the problems with a "literal" view of the Bible is that it tends to lead to people taking a "literal" view of everything. Thought experiments like this are a case in point: they're essentially stories that help the scientist to speculate about the possible consequences of this or that theory. They're not unlike parables. They're no more meant to be taken literally than the first chapter of Genesis or the parables of Jesus. The most famous case of a story used to illustrate a bit of quantum theory is Schrodinger's Cat. No-one could (or would) actually perform such an experiment, but it is a reasonably down-to-earth image that is reasonably graspable by those without the maths to understand quantum mechanics. But it's essentially metaphorical, as are these stories about "quantum bullets."

I don't see how a thought experiment that is used as a means of speculation in a highly complex field like quantum mechanics can have any theological implications whatsoever. It may be true, it may not be true in a quamtum sense. But as quantum events are incredibly tiny, what has that to do with human beings' relationship with the divine?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Metaphor

Active Member
Dec 19, 2005
50
3
33
Visit site
✟7,685.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Numenor said:
I suggest you get rid of all the technology in your house then if science is such a waste of time.
Technology and science are two different things.

Science is for learning about the natural aspects of the world around you and how they all work.

Technology Science uses the material gained by natural science to create devices that can be beneficial to human life.




Mixing these two form of science is a grave mistake and misunderstanding.

-John
 
Upvote 0

Numenor

Veteran
Dec 26, 2004
1,517
42
114
The United Kingdom
Visit site
✟1,894.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Conservative
Metaphor said:
Technology and science are two different things.

Science is for learning about the natural aspects of the world around you and how they all work.

Technology Science uses the material gained by natural science to create devices that can be beneficial to human life.

Mixing these two form of science is a grave mistake and misunderstanding.

-John

You seem confused. All technology is based on science, it is the appliance of science if you will. There are no "two forms" of which you are talking.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.