Sarcasm (debate)

[JimB]

I guess it depends on how you define “sarcasm”. If it is (according to the English language ) “a form of humor that is marked by irony, sometimes conveyed in speech with vocal over-emphasis. Saying something that is opposite of what is intended to be meant” then it is obvious to the objective reader from the scriptures that Jesus was making use of sarcasm/irony in those verses. Of course, as with any written text, we read into it what we want (a/k/a, eisegesis).

~Jim

“Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia” is the fear of long words.​

 

[Svt4Him]

Judas, the one who would betray him, also asked, “Rabbi, am I the one?” And Jesus told him, “You have said it.”

Don't see any irony here. Judas asked, Jesus answered. The way Jesus answered in no way means anything different than yes.

Jesus responded, “Do wedding guests fast while celebrating with the groom? Of course not.

No, they don't. Do wedding guests fast while celebrating? No, of course they don't. If I say it, I can't think of any way I can make it sarcastic.

When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” 13 Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’[a] For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

This is a great verse when Jesus said He in fact was sent to those who know they need help. God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble. But again, who is Jesus being sarcastic to?

“But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

This one kills me. I can't tell you how many times I jokingly tell my friends they have to be better than self-righteous sanctimonious people otherwise they'll go to hell. We always laught at that one.

Then Andrew brought Simon to meet Jesus. Looking intently at Simon, Jesus said, “Your name is Simon, son of John—but you will be called Cephas” (which means “Peter”[a]).

Yes, this one is pretty funny as well. Only he was called Cephas/Peter and he did become a rock. Seems more prophetic than sarcastic, but it sure cracks me up at a party when we change people's names.

26 But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27 When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”

 

[Jpark]

Remember, this is the discussion forum. I'll post it in the debate forum for those who would like to, um, use a little sarcasm.)

~Jim

Love is not blind; it sees more, not less. But because it sees more, it is willing to see less.​

Remember, when I use , it's because I'm in a happy mood.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Personally I love witty conversation. I like listening to it and I also find it quite fun when I can get in a witty retort or pun etc.

With certain people I have a lot of fun with that because we all know that we're joking around and we don't really mean to cut anyone down maliciously etc.

HOWEVER, I have been convicted often times about the way I respond to people in the forums. I get into lots of conversations and its not uncommon to run across some really bad arguments and really bad responses and often times the people with the stupidest responses are also the most arrogant and insulting.
In those cases there is nothing my flesh would love more than to rip into them with some really biting sarcasm.
There are two motivations in this that I see in myself. One is pride. My impulse is to use sarcasm to demonstrate my superiority to that person. By rideculing them and poking fun at them, I exalt myself and demonstrate how much more I know/better I am etc.
Another is essentially repaying slights and insults. When someone treats me badly I would like to pay them back in kind by rideculing them with sarcasm etc.

Numerous times I've been in the midst of typing a reply and had to delete the whole thing and just bite my tongue because I was convicted that my motivations were wrong. Usually the primary one for me is pride.

Sarcasm has its time and place as does everything, but I think it is generally a mistake to use it seriously on fellow Christians and even non-Christians most of the time.
I guess my final guide would be that its generally fairly difficult to be sarcastic lovingly Not impossible, but the two often don't go together.

 

[He put me back together]

I've often thought that sarcasm was likely to be an idiomatic oddity not present in all cultures, difficult to understand by cultures who do not share it, and probably not used by the ancient Hebrews.

but
I
was

WRONG

When in doubt, always consort an angry wife:

[FONT=&quot]2Sa 6:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Dawid[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot] returned to bless his household, and Mik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]al the daughter of Sha’ul came out to meet Dawid[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and said, “How esteemed was the sovereign of Yisra’ĕl today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the female servants of his servants, as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!”[/FONT]

While this proves that the Israelites did use sarcasm in some respect, it does not prove that God Himself uses sarcasm, or that He would have us use sarcasm to prove a point. There is, however, a passage where a prophet of YHWH, under the inspiration of the Spirit, uses sarcasm perhaps not only to prove a point, but maybe to mock:

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the sovereign of Yisra’ĕl gathered the prophets, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Do I go against Ramoth Gil[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ʽ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ad[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to battle, or do I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] does give it into the hand of the sovereign.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Yehoshaphat said, “Is there not here a prophet of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] besides, that we might inquire of him?” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the sovereign of Yisra’ĕl said to Yehoshaphat, “There is still one man, Mik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ayehu son of Yimlah, to inquire of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by him. But I hate him, because he does not prophesy good concerning me, but evil.” And Yehoshaphat said, “Let not the sovereign say so!” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] So the sovereign of Yisra’ĕl called an officer and said, “Bring Mik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ayehu son of Yimlah at once!” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the sovereign of Yisra’ĕl and Yehoshaphat sovereign of Yehud[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ah were sitting, each on his throne, dressed in their robes, at a threshing-floor at the entrance of the gate of Shomeron. And all the prophets were prophesying before them. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Tsid[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]qiyah son of Kena[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ʽ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]anah had made horns of iron for himself, and said, “Thus said [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot], ‘With these you push the Arameans until they are destroyed.’ ” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And all the prophets were prophesying so, saying, “Go up to Ramoth Gil[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ʽ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ad[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and prosper, for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] shall give it into the hand of the sovereign.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the messenger who had gone to call Mik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ayehu spoke to him, saying, “See now, the words of the prophets with one mouth are good towards the sovereign. Please, let your word be like the word of one of them, and you shall speak good.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Mik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ayehu said, “As [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lives, whatever [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] says to me, that I speak.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And he came to the sovereign, and the sovereign said to him, “Mik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ayehu, do we go against Ramoth Gil[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ʽ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ad[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to battle, or do we refrain?” And he answered him, “Go and prosper, for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] shall give it into the hand of the sovereign!” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Ki 22:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the sovereign said to him, “How many times have I made you swear that you do not speak to me, except the truth, in the Name of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]?"

1Ki 22:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] So he said, “I saw all Yisra’ĕl scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd. And [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] said, ‘These have no master. Let everyone return to his house in peace.’ ” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
1Ki 22:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the sovereign of Yisra’ĕl said to Yehoshaphat, “Have I not said to you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
1Ki 22:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then he said, “Therefore hear the word of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: I saw [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] sitting on His throne, and all the host of the heavens standing by Him, on His right and on His left. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
1Ki 22:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “And [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] said, ‘Who shall entice Ah[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̣[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ab[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to go up and fall at Ramoth Gil[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ʽ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ad[/FONT][FONT=&quot]̱[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?’ And this one said this, and another said that. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
1Ki 22:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “And a spirit came forward and stood before [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and said, ‘Let me entice him.’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
1Ki 22:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “And [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] said to him, ‘In what way?’ And he said, ‘I shall go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And He said, ‘Entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
1Ki 22:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “And now, see, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] has spoken evil concerning you.”[/FONT]

 

[upinarms]

So here the problem speak to some christian in a state of love and they jump on you like a pack of dog's. God forbid if you don't feel the same way. Oh-well life goes on. Let me tell you all how I fill for real. I love you all above anything that I am or will be, you are the best! My pray as all ways is "Father take each and every one of them to the top of the top." And that's for real-truly from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Svt4Him]

Who jumped on who like a pack of dog's when spoken to in a state of love? Here? Please link as I've never seen it.

 

[upinarms]

Try going agianst the grian on something and see what happean. Touch a gold calf of doctrine and ask way is this so and where is it in the book. Look out here comes the name calling when they have no answer to the question.

 

[Svt4Him]

You're asking me to prove your point? I'm still waiting for where Jesus used sarcasm, I don't have time to try and prove a point I don't think is valid. See, I don't think people trying to prove doctrinal points are doing it from a state of love.

 

[JimB]

You're asking me to prove your point? I'm still waiting for where Jesus used sarcasm, I don't have time to try and prove a point I don't think is valid. See, I don't think people trying to prove doctrinal points are doing it from a state of love.

I would say Jesus used sarcasm (ie. “a form of irony in which apparent praise conceals another, scornful meaning&#8221 on several occasions. For instance:

Jesus said to them (the Pharisees), “Have you never read in the Scriptures?” Matt. 21.42

“For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! … For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.” Matt. 23.23-24, 27

He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” Mark 7.9
​

~Jim

If we could only know each other, we would neither idolize nor hate.​

 

[Simon_Templar]

First off, I would make the point that sacrasm doesn't belong in serious debate. Real, honest debate is about trying to prove a point, or to discover truth based on logical argument from evidence.

Sarcasm, on the other hand, is primarily an emotional ploy and in MOST of its uses, it is used to avoid the content of someone's argument via mockery.

Moving on to my own opinion. Sarcasm is a form of mockery. Its purpose is to point out the foolishness or stupidity of the target, and invoke humor at the expense of the target.

There are times when sarcasm is warranted and useful. (prime example being Elijah and the Prophets of Baal)

However, speaking purely for myself, I find that when I am tempted to use sarcasm most frequently, especially in conversation with other Christians, it is designed to elevate myself and my wit at the expense of the other person and making them look foolish.
Usually it is because I'm irritated by something someone has said, and I want to assert my dominance over them in wit, as well as pay them back for whatever it is they said that irritated me.

As such, I often find my own motivation to use sarcasm is unchristian and is often rooted in my pride and lack of care for others.


I also do enjoy sarcasm because it is witty and clever. I generally like things that are witty and clever. I don't find it wrong to enjoy such things in and of themselves, but I do find I have to be wary of employing them simply because I want to appear to be witty and clever, especially at other people's expense.


As I said earlier, there are times when sarcasm is warranted. One example is that in some cases people are truly incapable of seeing the foolishness of their current belief, or practice etc, and using sarcasm against them can be a jarring experience to open their eyes to the foolishness of their situation. This is kind of the slap principle, like in the movies when the person is hysterical and someone has to slap them to get their attention or to snap them out of hysteria etc.

Also, there are simply some things that deserve to be mocked and made fun of.

 

[JimB]

*****

As I said earlier, there are times when sarcasm is warranted. One example is that in some cases people are truly incapable of seeing the foolishness of their current belief, or practice etc, and using sarcasm against them can be a jarring experience to open their eyes to the foolishness of their situation. This is kind of the slap principle, like in the movies when the person is hysterical and someone has to slap them to get their attention or to snap them out of hysteria etc.

Also, there are simply some things that deserve to be mocked and made fun of.

IMO, this is exactly how Jesus used sarcasm in those few instances where he used it (see examples #30 above).

~Jim

If we could only know each other, we would neither idolize nor hate.​

 

[Spirit Compass]

Sarcasm (discussion only, please)

Some in this forum frequently use sarcasm in their responses to posts they disagree with (yep, I’m one) and others have said that sarcasm is not the Christian way to debate.

Question:
Can you think of instances in the Bible where people (e.g., Jesus) used sarcasm?
Or, on the other hand, can you provide scripture to say that using sarcasm is, um, “unchristian”?

Working definition (Merriam-Webster):

sar·casm

Pronunciation: \sär-ka-zm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwars- to cut
Date: 1550

Definition:

1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
b : the use or language of sarcasm
​

Remember, this is the discussion forum. I'll post it in the debate forum for those who would like to, um, use a little sarcasm.)

~Jim

Love is not blind; it sees more, not less. But because it sees more, it is willing to see less.​

--Sarcasm is the tone level of discourse between Puke & Snot at the Renaissance Festival.

--The Roman Legionaires used it at the time of torture when they wanted Jesus to show he was the Son of God.

--Puke, Snot and Torture set the standard for sarcasm.

 

[JimB]

*****

--Puke, Snot and Torture set the standard for sarcasm.

Perhaps (from your POV). But I believe Jesus used sarcasm in the proper way, Puke and Snot notwithstanding.

~Jim

If we could only know each other, we would neither idolize nor hate.​

 

[hislegacy]

bump