Discussion Salvation study peanut gallery.

[hislegacy]

Here it is.

You will note that I will bring limited illustrations or examples of modern life or personal experiences.

My goal is to stay in scripture

 

[Alithis]

• http://www.christianforums.com/threads/a-study-on-salvation.7953628/#post-69828783

Re this partial text.
To whom is he writing? The saved or the unsaved... ? To those who are being saved.
What has he written that led up to him saying this...?what does he go on to complete. What he is saying ?
These are not instructions on how a person is to be saved.

The full gospel message is found in acts..
Repent...be baptized..recieve the holy Spirit...

 

[Biblicist]

SP, in your post #6 you stated "you will be saved. Future tense, not past tense", are you referring to how someone will be saved after their confession, or that salvation is a "now but not yet experience" where we are both saved and are being saved, where our salvation is a process that is only realised once we stand before the Lord.

 

[hislegacy]

The scripture speaks for itself.

 

[Biblicist]

The scripture speaks for itself.

If it did then I would have seen no need to ask you for some further qualification!

 

[hislegacy]

word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Sounds plain to me

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The moment you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. You. Are. Saved.

I do not believe in the teaching of now but not yet. Not scriptural my based IMHO

It comes from a misunderstanding and mixing of Salvation with Sanctification.

 

[Biblicist]

Sounds plain to me

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The moment you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. You. Are. Saved.

I do not believe in the teaching of now but not yet. Not scriptural my based IMHO

It comes from a misunderstanding and mixing of Salvation with Sanctification.

Thanks for your reply. Even though I believe that our salvation is both an event and an ongoing process (which is why I asked for a qualification), we can at least agree that when a person repents and confesses that Jesus is their Lord that they are indeed Born Again as a result of their repentance and confession.

 

[hislegacy]

Again as a result of their repentance and confession.

The reader will note that in the verses quoted repentance is not mentioned. It is mentioned other places that we will get to, but these verses, nor the chapter itself doesn't address the subject of repentance.

 

[Biblicist]

Again as a result of their repentance and confession.

The reader will note that in the verses quoted repentance is not mentioned. It is mentioned other places that we will get to, but these verses, nor the chapter itself doesn't address the subject of repentance.

You know what, you’ve raised a really interesting question, where I now have to ask myself if it is actually possible for someone to confess Christ as their Lord and Saviour without there being an aspect of repentance involved . . . as of today, even though I have always held to this position, having thought about the question for a bit, I am now not all that sure.

If we consider how the children of Christian parents grow into the Lord, where we know from the somewhat difficult passage of 1Cor 7:14 that the children of a Christian parent or parents “are holy”, then it may be possible that some children move from this state of inherited or imputed “holiness” where they may never have the need to have what is called a “crisis experience” where they cast away the old for the new; then it could be that for young children at least, that a conscious renunciation of sin (repentance) need not occur.

When it comes to the children of Christian parents who have never placed their trust in the Lord, or with teenagers or adults who have never known the Lord; having thought about your point for most of the day, I would be more inclined to ask if it is possible for someone who has never known the Lord to confess him as Lord without there being any recognition of their inherent sin and that Jesus had to die on their behalf for their sin?

So that I can hopefully shake away what could very well be some preconceived and not well thought out cobwebs, I have just taken the interesting step of slowly working through the NT application of repentance along with looking into the lexical meaning of the term repentance.

 

[Alithis]

Thanks for your reply. Even though I believe that our salvation is both an event and an ongoing process (which is why I asked for a qualification), we can at least agree that when a person repents and confesses that Jesus is their Lord that they are indeed Born Again as a result of their repentance and confession.

i have to question this ..
since he is writing to christians whe he says it .. he is writing to those already born again .
he is going on in a clarification of what he has been saying through out the entire letter .not making a singular instructions on how to be saved .
if a person can be saved by repeating a prayer and because you heard them say it ,you turn around and say .. "your a christian now ."
then why is that NEVER preached by the apostles or the lord jesus ? in the book of acts we never see them saying .. you must say a prayer and you 'will be saved" .. that is just never ever preached .
so why is it preached today when it is not in the scriptures ,any where ,taught, as a means by which to be saved . and is perhaps the reason that we see so few people continue i faith but rather they in small numbers continue in church attendance , but seldom in a life of faith .

 

[hislegacy]

I'll not debate you. You are thoroughly convinced you are right so their is no use.

I'm presenting scripture verbatim.

 

[Biblicist]

i have to question this ..
since he is writing to christians whe he says it .. he is writing to those already born again .
he is going on in a clarification of what he has been saying through out the entire letter .not making a singular instructions on how to be saved .
if a person can be saved by repeating a prayer and because you heard them say it ,you turn around and say .. "your a christian now ."
then why is that NEVER preached by the apostles or the lord jesus ? in the book of acts we never see them saying .. you must say a prayer and you 'will be saved" .. that is just never ever preached .
so why is it preached today when it is not in the scriptures ,any where ,taught, as a means by which to be saved . and is perhaps the reason that we see so few people continue i faith but rather they in small numbers continue in church attendance , but seldom in a life of faith .

Something that you and I should probably keep in mind, is that SP's remarks regarding repentence may not be as easy to either fully accept or reject as we might think; it could very well be that a proper response should not be framed as either a yes or no, but where a better understanding might be obtained with how the question is asked, in that we can all easily address the question from within our own set of preconceptions.

When we look at salvation through the Epistles, as with the above graphic, we see that a believing faith and confession are the two key elements for the commencement of Regeneration.

As time is a bit short at the moment, I am still going through some material if for no other reason but to work out what I actually think about the question. For those who are interested, I have included some of the material that I am using which I've included within the various spoilers. They have not been provided as evidence for any particular position but the material is a part of the process that I utilise to work out a particular doctrine.

Spoiler: Texts that deal with Repentance

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<GK3566//SC3340> μετανοέω metanoeo

1. (Matthew 3:2 NASB) "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

2. From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

3. (Matthew 11:20 NASB) Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.

4. (Matthew 11:21 NASB) "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

5. (Matthew 12:41 NASB) "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

6. (Mark 1:15 NASB) and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

7. (Mark 6:12 NASB) They went out and preached that men should repent.

8. (Luke 10:13 NASB) "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

9. (Luke 11:32 NASB) "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

10. (Luke 13:3 NASB) "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

11. (Luke 13:5 NASB) "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

12. (Luke 15:7 NASB) "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

13. (Luke 15:10 NASB) "In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

14. (Luke 16:30 NASB) "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

15. (Luke 17:3 NASB) "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

16. (Luke 17:4 NASB) "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

17. (Acts 2:38 NASB) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

18. (Acts 3:19 NASB) "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

19. (Acts 8:22 NASB) "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

20. (Acts 17:30 NASB) "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

21. (Acts 26:20 NASB) but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

22. (2 Corinthians 12:21 NASB) I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.

23. (Revelation 2:5 NASB) 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

24. (Revelation 2:16 NASB) 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

25. (Revelation 2:21 NASB) 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

26. (Revelation 2:22 NASB) 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

27. (Revelation 3:3 NASB) 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

28. (Revelation 3:19 NASB) 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

29. (Revelation 9:20 NASB) The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

30. (Revelation 9:21 NASB) and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

31. (Revelation 16:9 NASB) Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

32. (Revelation 16:11 NASB) and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.


<GK3567//SC3341> μετάνοια metanoia


1. (Matthew 3:8 NASB) "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

2. (Matthew 3:11 NASB) "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

3. (Mark 1:4 NASB) John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

4. (Luke 3:3 NASB) And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins;

5. (Luke 3:8 NASB) "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

6. (Luke 5:32 NASB) "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

7. (Luke 15:7 NASB) "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

8. (Luke 24:47 NASB) and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

9. (Acts 5:31 NASB) "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

10. (Acts 11:18 NASB) When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

11. (Acts 13:24 NASB) after John had proclaimed before His coming a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

12. (Acts 19:4 NASB) Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

13. (Acts 20:21 NASB) solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

14. (Acts 26:20 NASB) but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

15. (Romans 2:4 NASB) Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

16. (2 Corinthians 7:9 NASB) I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

17. (2 Corinthians 7:10 NASB) For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

18. (2 Timothy 2:25 NASB) with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

19. (Hebrews 6:1 NASB) Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

20. (Hebrews 6:6 NASB) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

21. (Hebrews 12:17 NASB) For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

22. (2 Peter 3:9 NASB) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Spoiler: Lexical definitions for Repentance

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1. μετανοέω metanoeo <GK //SC3340>

Friberg Lexicon:

18292 μετανοέω fut. μετανοήσω; 1aor. μετενόησα; strictly perceive afterward, with the implication of being too late to avoid consequences; (1) predominately of a religious and ethical change in the way one thinks about acts repent, change one's mind, be converted (MT 3.2); (2) as feeling remorse regret, feel sorry (LU 17.3, 4)

18293 μετανοῆσαι VNAA μετανοέω
18294 μετανοησάντων VPAAGM-P μετανοέω
18295 μετανοήσατε VMAA--2P μετανοέω
18296 μετανοήσῃ VSAA--3S μετανοέω
18297 μετανοήσῃς VSAA--2S μετανοέω
18298 μετανοήσητε VSAA--2P μετανοέω
18299 μετανόησον VMAA--2S μετανοέω
18300 μετανοήσουσι(ν) VIFA--3P μετανοέω
18301 μετανοήσωσι(ν) VSAA--3P μετανοέω
18302 μετανοῆτε VSPA--2P μετανοέω​

UBS Lexicon:

3985 μετανοέω repent, have a change of heart, turn from one's sins, change one's ways​

Louw-Nida Lexicon:

41.52 μετανοέω ; μετάνοια, ας f: to change one's way of life as the result of a complete change of thought and attitude with regard to sin and righteousness - 'to repent, to change one's way, repentance.' μετανοέω: ἐξελθόντες ἐκήρυξαν ἵνα μετανοῶσιν 'they went out and preached that the people should repent' Mk 6.12. μετάνοια: ἀγνοῶν ὅτι τὸ χρηστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς μετάνοιάν σε ἄγει 'do you fail to understand that God is kind because he wants to lead you to repent?' Ro 2.4.

Though in English a focal component of repent is the sorrow or contrition that a person experiences because of sin, the emphasis in μετανοέω and μετάνοια seems to be more specificaly the total change, both in thought and behavior, with respect to how one should both think and act. Whether the focus is upon attitude or behavior varies somewhat in different contexts. Compare, for example, Lk 3.8, He 6.1, and Ac 26.20.​

LSJ Lexicon (Abridged):

28016 μετανοέω
μετα-νοέω, f. ήσω, to change one's mind or purpose, Plat., Xen.
2. to repent, Antipho, etc. Hence μετάνοια​

LEH Lexicon:

5872 μετανοέω
μετανοέω+ - V 0-2-14-3-5-24
1 Sm 15,29(bis); Is 46,8; Jer 4,28; 8,6

to repent [abs.] 1 Sm 15,29; to repent of [ἀπό τινος] Jer 8,6; id. [ἔν τινι] Sir 48,15; id. [ἐπί τινι] Am 7,3; id. [περί τινος] Jer 18,8

to reconsider Prv 24,32; to change purpose not yet executed Jon 3,9

cpr. μεταμελέομαι, κατανύσσω

Cf. BARR 1961, 236-237.252-253; HARL 1986 =1992, 94; 1991=1992, 158; HELBING 1928, 112; LARCHER 1984, 359; 1985, 691-692; LOEWE 1952, 261-272; MIQUEL 1986, 184-185; SPICQ 1982, 452-458; THOMPSON, E. 1908, 1-29; ïNIDNTT; TWNT​

EDNT Dictionary:

3373
μετανοέω metanoeœ turn around, change one's mind, repent
à μετάνοια. [2:415]​

VGNT Dictionary:

2685 μετανοέω [pg 403]
μετανοέω.

A few exx. oi this important verb can be quoted from our sources—PSI V. 4959 (B.C. 258–7) νυνὶ δὲ μετανενόηκεν διὰ τὸ ἐπ@ι]τετιμῆσθαι ὑπὸ κτλ., P Gurob 68 (B.C. 214) e,άμπερ μὴ βούλησθε μετανοῆ@σαι—in a broken context, OGJS 7519 (ii/B.C.) θεωρῶν οὖν ὑμᾶς μετανενοηκότας τε ἐπὶ τοῖ@ς] προημαρτημένοις (cf. 2 Cor 12), BGU III. 747i. (A.D. 139) οἰό@μ]ενος με@τ]ανοή@σι]ν (l. μετανοήσειν) ἡμεῖν ἐπῖχό@ν] (l. ἐπεῖχόν) σοι τῷ κυρίῳ δηλῶσαι, P Tebt II. 4245 (late iii/A.D.) εἰ μὲν ἐπιμένις σου τῇ ἀπονοίᾳ, συνχέ(=αί)ρω σοι· εἰ δὲ μετανοεῖς, σὺ οἶδας, “if you persist in your folly, I congratulate you; if you repent, you only know” (Edd.), BGU IV. 1024iv.5 (end of IV/A.D.) ὑπὸ γὰ]r τοῦ ἐπικιμέν@ου] αὐτῷ ἔρωτος @παρῆλθεν μ]ετανοῶν. In P Lond 897 (A.D. 84) (=III. p. 207) παρακαλῶι δὲ σὲ εἵνα μὴ μεlανήσης, the editor suggests that for μεlανήσης we may perhaps read μετανήσῃς for μετανοήσῃς. See also Menandrea p. 127 where the verb is used of “change of mind.” Its meaning deepens with Christianity, and in the NT it is more than “repent,” and indicates a complete change of attitude, spiritual and moral, towards God. MGr μετανοιώνω, “repent.”​

Gingrich Lexicon:

4221 μετανοέω
μετανοέω feel remorse, repent, lit. ‘change one's mind’ Mt 11:21; 12:41; Mk 1:15; Lk 11:32; 13:3, 5; Ac 3:19; 8:22; 2 Cor 12:21; Rv 9:20f; 16:9. [pg 126]​

LSJM Lexicon (Unabridged):

37255 μετανοέω
Entry words: μετανοέω, μετανοημα, μετανοητικός

μετανο-έω, perceive afterwards or too late, opp. προνοέω, Epich. [280]; opp. προβουλεύομαι, Democr.66; concur subsequently, τισι BGU747 i 11 (ii a.d.).

2. change one's mind or purpose, Pl. Euthd.279c, Men. Epit.72; μ. μ. οὔτε. .τῶν χαλεπῶν ἔργων ᾖ τὸ. . ἄρχειν change one's opinion and think that it is not.., X.Cyr.1.1.3.

3. repent, Antipho 2.4.12; ἐν τοῖς ἀνηκέστοις Id.5.91: freq. in Lxx and NT, Si. 48.15, al.; ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας Act.Ap.8.22; ἐκ τῶν ἔργων Apoc.9.20; ἐπὶ τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ 2Ep.Cor.12.21, cf. OGI751.9 (Amblada, ii B.C.); ἐπί τινι Luc.Salt.84, etc.; περί τινων Plu.Galb.6; τοῖς πεπραγμένοις Id.Agis 19: c. part., μ. γενόμενος Ἕλλην Luc.Am. 36.

4. c. acc., repent of, τὴν ἄφιξιν J.BJ 4.4.5. –ημα, ατος, τό, ultimate concept, Dam Pr.117. –ητικός, ή, όν, given to repentance, Max.Tyr.11.3. [pg 1115]​

2. μετάνοια <GK //SC3341>

Friberg Lexicon:

18303 μετάνοια, ας, ἡ strictly later knowledge, subsequent correction; (1) religiously and morally, as a change of mind leading to change of behavior repentance, conversion, turning about (MT 3.8; 2C 7.10); (2) as a change of opinion in respect to one's acts regret, remorse (a popular Greek usage not found in the NT)​

UBS Lexicon:

3986 μετάνοια , ας f repentance, change of heart, turning from one's sins, change of way​

Louw-Nida Lexicon:

41.52 μετανοέω ; μετάνοια, ας f: to change one's way of life as the result of a complete change of thought and attitude with regard to sin and righteousness - 'to repent, to change one's way, repentance.' μετανοέω: ἐξελθόντες ἐκήρυξαν ἵνα μετανοῶσιν 'they went out and preached that the people should repent' Mk 6.12. μετάνοια: ἀγνοῶν ὅτι τὸ χρηστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς μετάνοιάν σε ἄγει 'do you fail to understand that God is kind because he wants to lead you to repent?' Ro 2.4.

Though in English a focal component of repent is the sorrow or contrition that a person experiences because of sin, the emphasis in μετανοέω and μετάνοια seems to be more specificaly the total change, both in thought and behavior, with respect to how one should both think and act. Whether the focus is upon attitude or behavior varies somewhat in different contexts. Compare, for example, Lk 3.8, He 6.1, and Ac 26.20.​

LS Lexicon (Abridged):

28017 μετάνοια
μετάνοια, ἡ, after-thought, repentance, Thuc., etc.​

EDNT Dictionary:

3374
μετάνοια, ας, ἡ metanoia change of direction, conversion, repentance*
μετανοέω metanoeœ turn around, change one's mind, repent*

1. Occurrences in the NT — 2. Meaning outside the NT — 3. John the Baptist — 4. Jesus — 5. The sayings source — 6. Mark — 7. Matthew — 8. Luke-Acts — 9. The Epistles — 10. Revelation
​

LSJM Lexicon (Unabridged):

37256 μετάνοια
μετάνοια, ἡ, change of mind or heart, repentance, regret, Batr.70, Th.3.36, Philem.198, Plb.4.66.7, Lxx Pr.14.15, Aristeas 188, Plu.2.712c (pl.), etc.; ἀνίατος γὰρ τῶν τοιούτων μ. Antipho 2.4.12; γαμεῖν ὁ μέλλων εἰς μ. ἔρχεται Men.Mon.91; ἡ εἰς τὸν θεὸν μ. Act.Ap.20.21; μ. ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων Ep.Hebr.6.1.

II. Rhet., afterthought, correction, Rutil.1.16. [pg 1115]​

Spoiler: Prayer

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Prayer:

Friberg Lexicon:

23357 προσεύχομαι impf. προσηυχόμην; fut. προσεύξομαι; 1aor. προσηυξάμην; as a religious technical term for talking to a deity in order to ask for help, usually in the form of a request, vow, or wish pray, speak to (God), ask (MT 6.6)


Louw-Nida Lexicon:

33.178 εὔχομαι ; προσεύχομαι ; εὐχή, ῆς f ; προσευχή, ῆς f: to speak to or to make requests of God - 'to pray, to speak to God, to ask God for, prayer.' εὔχομαι: εὐχόμεθα δὲ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν μὴ ποιῆσαι ὑμᾶς κακὸν μηδέν 'we pray to God that you will do no wrong' 2 Cor 13.7. προσεύχομαι: ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος κατ᾽ ἰδίαν προσεύξασθαι 'he went up a hill by himself to pray' Mt 14.23. εὐχή: ἡ εὐχὴ τῆς πίστεως σώσει τὸν κάμνοντα 'the prayer made in faith will save the sick person' Jas 5.15. προσευχή: ἔσται ὁ οἶκός μου οἶκος προσευχῆς 'my house will be a house of prayer' Lk 19.46.

In some languages there are a number of different terms used for prayer depending upon the nature of the content, for example, requests for material blessing, pleas for spiritual help, intercession for others, thanksgiving, and praise. There may also be important distinctions on the basis of urgency and need. The most generic expression for prayer may simply be 'to speak to God.' It is normally best to avoid an expression which means primarily 'to recite.'


VGNT Dictionary:

3619 προσεύχομαι [pg 547]

προσεύχομαι.

An interesting ex. of this verb, which is alway used of prayer to the gods or to God, is afforded by P Cairo Zen 59034 (B.C. 257). A certain Zoilos had been ordered by the god Sarapis to inform a high State official Apollonios that a temple should be erected to him, Zoilo neglected the charge and in consequence was thrown into a serious illness—9 f. εἰς avrrws@τ]i(a@ν] m@ε πε]rie(baλεν μεγάλην ὥστε καὶ κινδυνεῦσai, @με. But on praying to the god and promising to do his bidding he was healed—10 ff. proσευξάμενος δ@ὲ] αὐ@τῶι, ἐ]a,@μ με] ὑγιάσηι, διότι ὑπομενῶ τὴν ληιτο@υρ]gίαν καὶ ποιh(@σει]ν to. ὑφ᾽ αὑτοῦ προστασσόμενον (supply ὑγιάσθην). [An important commentary on the whole letter is supplied by Deissmann Exp. VIII. xxiv. p. 420 ff.]. Cf. Preisigke 3740 (i/A.D.) Ἄττηος προσεύχετα@ι] τοῖς <ἐν> Ἀβύτο<<ν>> θεοῖς, ἵνα υγιαινῃ. See also s.v. εὔχομαι.

 

[Alithis]

I'll not debate you. You are thoroughly convinced you are right so their is no use.

I'm presenting scripture verbatim.

But your not presenting scripture .your presenting a peices of text extracted from scriptire and devided up by verses that did not exist when hd wrote it. So the text taken alone can be presented with a different meaning to what it has when not extracted.
the question is a fair and honest question.
why is it that nither thr lord nor the apostles preached confession from the mouth to be saved.?because the gosoel states repentance and baptism by faith.
in that above text he is speaking to those who have already entered the path to life ,through repentance and baptism. What is already in their heart comes out the mouth and continues to save them .

 

[Biblicist]

. . . in that above text he is speaking to those who have already entered the path to life ,through repentance and baptism. What is already in their heart comes out the mouth and continues to save them .

We should keep in mind that all of Paul's books were written to Believers, where Paul regularly refers to those who are not only lost but also with the previous life of the various Believers that he is addressing. With Romans 9, 10 & 11 Paul spends a lot of time addressing the lost generation of Israel who had chosen to reject their Messiah. With reference to the above graphic of Rom 10:8-10, we find Paul telling the Believers that all an unbeliever has to do is to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised Christ from the dead.

The material within the following spoiler is not intended to support any particular position but as most people do not have ready access to the better lexicons it has been provided for those who might find the material of some use.

Spoiler: NASB usage of Confession

Confession:

NASB Usage:

GK = NIV numbering system SC = Strong's numbers

The numbered paragraphs reflect the NASB use of a particular Greek word; the (A) paragraph provides a more general Lexical definition of the word.

1. <GK2018//SC1843> ἐξομολογέω exomologeo
Meaning: to agree, confess
Origin: from SC1537 and SC3670
Usage: confess (2), confessed (1), confessing (2), consented (1), give praise (2), praise (2).

A. [Gingrich Lexicon] ἐξομολογέω
ἐξομολογέω—1. act. promise, consent Lk 22:6.—2. mid.—a. confess, admit Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5; Ac 19:18; Js 5:16.—b. acknowledge Phil 2:11.—c. praise Mt 11:25; Lk 10:21; Ro 14:11; 15:9.* [exomologesis, public confession of sin] [pg 69]​

2. <GK3933//SC3670> ὁμολογέω homologeo
Meaning: to speak the same, to agree
Origin: from ὁμόλογος homologos (of one mind)
Usage: acknowledge (2), admit (1), assured (1), confess (6), confessed (4), confesses (6), confessing (1), declare (1), give thanks (1), made (1), profess (1), promised (1).

A. [Gingrich Lexicon] ὁμολογέω
ὁμολογέω—1. promise, assure Mt 14:7; Ac 7:17.—2. agree, admit Hb 11:13.—3. confess J 1:20; Ac 24:14; 1 J 1:9.—4. declare (publicly), acknowledge, confess Lk 12:8; J 9:22; Ac 23:8; Ro 10:9; 1 Ti 6:12; 1 J 4:2f, 15; Rv 3:5; say plainly Mt 7:23; claim Tit 1:16.—5. praise, w. dat. Hb 13:15. [homologate, approve, be in accord] [pg 139]
​

3. <GK3944//SC3671> ὁμολογία homologia
Meaning: an agreement, confession
Origin: from SC3670
Usage: confession ( 6).

A. [Gingrich Lexicon] ὁμολογία
ὁμολογία, ας, ἡ confessing 2 Cor 9:13. Confession, acknowledgment 1 Ti 6:12f; Hb 3:1; 4:14; 10:23.* [homology, of correspondence in structure] [pg 139]​

4. <GK3935//SC3672> ὁμολογουμένως homologoumenos
Meaning: as agreed, by common consent
Origin: adv. from SC3670
Usage: common confession (1).

A. [Gingrich Lexicon] ὁμολογουμένως
ὁμολογουμένως adv. confessedly, undeniably, most certainly 1 Ti 3:16.* [pg 139]​

Scriptures that speak of Confession:

1. (Matthew 3:6 NASB) and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
2. "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
3. (Mark 1:5 NASB) And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
4. (Luke 12:8 NASB) "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
5. (John 1:20 NASB) And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
6. (John 9:22 NASB) His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.
7. (John 12:42 NASB) Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
8. (Acts 19:18 NASB) Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices.
9. (Romans 7:16 NASB) But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
10. (Romans 10:9 NASB) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
11. (Romans 10:10 NASB) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
12. (2 Corinthians 9:13 NASB) Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
13. (Philippians 2:11 NASB) and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
14. (1 Timothy 3:16 NASB) By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
15. (1 Timothy 6:12 NASB) Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
16. (1 Timothy 6:13 NASB) I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
17. (Hebrews 3:1 NASB) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
18. (Hebrews 4:14 NASB) Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
19. (Hebrews 10:23 NASB) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
20. (Hebrews 11:13 NASB) All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
21. (James 5:16 NASB) Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
22. (1 John 1:9 NASB) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
23. (1 John 2:23 NASB) Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24. (1 John 4:2 NASB) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
25. (1 John 4:3 NASB) and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
26. (1 John 4:15 NASB) Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
27. (Revelation 3:5 NASB) 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.​

A number of transcription errors have occurred within the TDNT definition as a result of it being copied from BW9 into MSWord and then into the forum.

Spoiler: TDNT Definitions for Confession

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

550

ὁμολογέω homologeo [to confess, promise, praise],
ἐξομολογέω exomologeo [to confess, promise, praise],
ἀνθομολογέομαι anthomologeomai [to praise, thank],
ὁμολογία homologia [confession],
ὁμολογουμένως homologoumenos [confessedly]

A. The Group in Secular Greek Usage. This group is common in law and religion. The literal meaning of homologein is “to say the same thing.” We thus get the senses a. “to agree to something” (an affirmation, a charge, etc.), b. “to confirm receipt,” c. “to agree or submit to a proposal,” and d. “to agree to a wish,” “to promise.” In a transferred sense it may denote the agreement of words and deeds, or of customs. The noun homologiÃa is important in Socratic dialogue as indicating consent to what is found to be valid followed by the appropriate resolve and action; theoretical assent is not enough. In the Stoics there is a shift from the thought of actual conduct to the idea of an integrated state of life. In the papyri the word takes on the sense of a “compact” or “agreement” of a legal character. In religion we find varied use, e.g., for commitment to vows and especially for the confessing of sins.

B. The OT-Near Eastern and Hellenistic-Gnostic Liturgy of Thanksgiving.

a. Biblical homology develops out of the cultus and takes the form of confession of sins and praise of God. Many psalms (e.g., 22; 30; 116) and many other passages (e.g., 1 Sam. 2:1ff.; Is. 38:9ff.) are thanksgivings after deliverance. Job 33:26ff. describes how God has brought restoration, and a response is made in confession and acknowledgment. There are parallels of confession in psalms of complaint outside Israel. The persons afflicted confess their faults, invoke divine mercy, promise a song and offering, and then fulfil the vow. The song of thanksgiving (cf. Ps. 116) describes the distress, utters a prayer, and depicts the saving action. It often associates true sacrifice with thanksgiving and calls for praise from those present (cf. Jer. 33:11). Sacred words are used, but there may be a call for a new song (Pss. 33:2; 40:3).

2. Liturgies of thanksgiving also occur in the Hellenistic religions of redemption. These focus on the redeemer myth and the theme of union with the redeemer. The cultus enacts the soteriological drama. In the Hermetic corpus the idea of logike thysia is an important one. It comprises the whole life of thanksgiving, but especially the hymn of thanks.

C. The Group in the LXX and Postbiblical Judaism.
1. The LXX prefers the compounds exomologeiÃsthai and exomoloÃgeÒsis, which in secular Greek denote public admission of acknowledgment. On the basis of Heb. yaÒdÑaÖ, however, the idea of praising God is added to that of confessing sin (cf. 1 Kgs. 8:33, 35; Neh. 9:3 for the linking of the two). homologiÃa may still denote the confession of sin; public confession is presupposed. In the sense of extolling or praising, the group takes its place with other terms, e.g., invoking and reciting. It carries the thought of magnifying God by confessing or rehearsing his mighty acts.

2. In later Judaism the group carries the thought of the confession of sin with penitential prayer. The great men of the past publicly acknowledged their guilt (Dan. 9:1ff.; Jdt. 9:1ff., etc.). Even the ungodly Manasseh humbled himself (2 Chr. 33:12-13 ). Prominent in this type of confession is the concept of divine judgment, which both inspires it and is averted by it. Josephus refers to acknowledgment of the emperor in Jewish War 7.418; its opposite is confession of the one God (2 Macc. 7:37).

3. Philo gives evidence of philosophical influence, e.g., of Stoicism in his demand for integrity and harmony of soul. Confession of God is for him a transcendent virtue.

— p. 688 —
True confession is the work of God and belongs to the immaterial sphere, homologeiÃn can also denote both God's declarations in Scripture and human promises to God. Other meanings are confession of sin and agreement or affirmation, us well us engagement or contract in the secular sense.

4. The praise of God plays a role in apocalyptic. In En. 61:9ff. it will accompany God's righteous judgment. Such praise may be a sign of human transformation (71:11-12).

D. The Group in the NT.

I. homologein.

1. A first use of this verb is for “to assure,” “to promise,” “to admit,” or “to concede.” In Mt. 14:7 (cf. Acts 7:17; Heb. 6:13 ) it binds the speaker to his word. The use is Hellenistic, but in Jn. 1:20 there is a distinctive Christian note. In John solemn declarations belong to the circle of witness to Christ (1:7, 15, 19). Similarly in Heb. 11:13 the idea of a solemn declaration of faith is added to that of admission or confirmation. Similarly, admission of sin in 1 Jn. 1:9 (cf. the opposite in 1:8) carries with it the idea of confession.

2. A second use is for “to make a statement” or “bear witness” in a legal sense. Shaped by the gospel tradition, this is perhaps the most important NT use. It occurs in Lk. 12:8; Mt. 10:32. Jesus demands confession of himself, and he will confirm it to the Father as the eschatological witness. Important here is the correspondence between earthly conduct and the eschatological word. Rev. 3:5 takes up the theme, and cf. Mt. 7:23 for rejection by the eschatological witness or judge. In Jn. 9:22 the Jews expel those who publicly confess Jesus as Messiah. To confess Jesus means honor with God; refusal to confess him is based on the desire for human honor (5:44; 12:43). Judicial confession is also the point in Acts 24:14, where Paul acknowledges that us a Christian he serves the God of the fathers.

3. A third use is for “to make solemn statements of faith,” “to confess something in faith.” Rom. 10:9-10 (cf. Dt. 30:14) links faith and confession (cf. 2 Cor. 4:13). Confession and proclamation grow out of faith. Confession stands under eschatological responsibility (2 Cor. 4:14) and has the promise of eschatological salvation (Rom. 10:9-10). The eschatological aspect is evident in Acts 23:8. We are perhaps to take Heb. 13:15 in the same way, and also Tit. 1:16, where the words of the false teachers confess God but their works deny him. 1 John, too, contrasts denying and confessing. Those who deny Christ are liars and antichrists (2:22). Confessing, then, implies acceptance of a specific christological understanding. Only the spirits that affirm this understanding are from God (4:2-3). That more than intellectual understanding is at issue may be seen from 4:15. This type of homologiÃa causes division (cf. 2 Jn. 7). The aim of John is to bring about decision by a firm formulation of the gospel that expresses its saving significance. 1 Tim. 6:13 views the witness of Jesus at his trial us confession. This good confession, ordained and confirmed by God, stands in sharp contrast to the false witness of his opponents (Mk. 14:56). It consists of his admission that he is the Son of God (cf. Mt. 16:16; Mk. 15:39). It is a model for disciples (Mt. 10:32). Such confession should be public (1 Tim. 6:12), binding (6:12-13), and definitive (Mt. 10:32). It may come us the answer to a question (Mt. 16:13ff.; Jn. 1:19ff.; Acts 8:37: at baptism). The authentic confession rules out other possibilities, and even though the question is put personally the answer is given representatively (cf. the link between Peter's confession and the church in Mt. 16:13 ff.). Knowledge does not

— p. 689 —
necessarily include confession (Mt. 10:19; Jn. 12:42), and present confession does not rule out future denial (Peter). But confession means taking sides, and confession of Christ means confession of the risen and exalted Lord (set side by side with the one God in 1 Cor. 8:6). Proclamation and teaching are forms of confessing and witnessing. They start from an event in history, which they proclaim and interpret, they carry with them a commitment and a claim, and they integrate those who accept them into eschatological fellowship with God.

II. homologoumeÃnoÒs. This adverb means “by common consent.” It occurs in the NT only in 1 Tim. 3:16, which says that the mystery of the faith is “confessedly great.” Christ is vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, and believed on in the world.

III. anthomologeisthai and exomologeiÃsthai to theo.

1. anthomologeisthai has many meanings in secular Greek, e.g., “to agree,” “to admit,” “to express thanks.” In Lk. 2:38 (on an OT model) Anna's thanksgiving combines acknowledgment, obedience, and proclamation.

2. exomologeisthai also has such senses as “to admit,” “to confess,” and “to promise.” The NT adopts especially the cultic sense “to confess,” “to extol.” Paul's use in Rom. 15:7ff. recalls the Psalms, and cf. Rom. 14:11 and Phil. 2:11 (Is. 45:23), where the Christian confession, which is to God's glory, broadens out into that of the last time (cf. the songs of Rev. 4:8, 11; 5:9ff.; 12:10ff., which pledge final victory and are a summons to rejoicing; also the angels' song in Lk. 2:14 and the blessing of Simeon in Lk. 2:29ff.). As many OT Psalms begin with praise (111:1; 138:1), so Jesus' cry of jubilation refers to a rejoicing in the Spirit (Mt. 11:25). The threefold division here combines praise of God, disclosure of the authority of the Son, and a summons to accept eschatological wisdom (or, in Lk. 10:23-24, a blessing of eyewitnesses). This wisdom is not that of the law or tradition, but of the gospel; this is why the scribes reject it (1 Cor. 1:19-20).

IV. exomologeisthai tas hamartias. While Phil. 2:11 construes the confession of Is. 45:23 as praise of God, Rom. 14:11 relates it to the eschatological confession of sins before God's judgment throne. The two go closely together. From the time of the Baptist public confession of sin is integral to conversion (cf. Mk. 1:5; Mt. 3:6; Acts 19:18). According to Jms. 5:16 it is also a custom in times of sickness.

V. homologia. This word denotes a free act of confession of the gospel or a liturgical form of confession in the community. As a response in 2 Cor. 9:13 it implies acceptance, commitment, and obedience. It is thus an occasion for thanksgiving and for praise of God (9:12-13). At issue here is an act of sharing, so that the use is very broad. In Heb. 3:1 ; 4:14; 10:23, however, the reference is to the ecclesiastical of baptismal confession of faith to which the hearers are committed, or to a liturgy of praise connected with the various predicates of Christ. In Hebrews, too, the word expresses commitment, but with a fixed homologiÃa in view. In 1 Tim. 6:12-13 the reference seems to be to a gathering for ordination, and it may be that the verse which follows gives the content of Timothy's confession, echoing both its legal and its cultic form. The hymn in 2 Tim. 2:11ff. recalls Mt. 10:32-33: the Christ who summons us to confession himself makes confession and is faithful. The concept of witnesses is important in 1 Tim. 6:12; Heb. 12:1; Rev. 1:5, for, like Christ, they hear the commitment and will speak for or against those who make the confession at the last judgment. In 2 Tim. 2:11ff. it is Christ himself who is the witness. The first two members are oriented to the eschatological promise and the last two to the attitude of Christ. The third member adopts the concept of correspondence as a warning, but the

— p. 690 —
last breaks it in view of God's greater faithfulness (cf. Rom. 3:3), unless the point is that Christ will be faithful to his word. The point of Jms. 2:14ff. is that confession does not release from obedience but demands it.

E. The Group in the Postapostolic Writings.

1. homologein. This word occurs in the senses a. “to promise,” “to admit,” “to concede” (cf. Diog. 2.1), b. “to make legal statements,” “to bear witness” (Ignatius Smyrneans 5.1; Hermas Similitudes 9.28.1ff., which presents confession as a duty of servant to master; 2 Clem. 3. 1ff.; Mart. Pol. 6.1), c. “to make solemn statements of faith” (Ignatius Smyrneans 5.2; 7.1, where contradiction of the confession of the Lord's Supper as Christ's flesh means exclusion and death; Polycarp 7.1; 2 Clem. 3.2ff., which demands honoring with the whole heart and mind).

2. exomologeisthai to theo or tas hamartias. exomologeisthai to theo finds a place in the liturgy (1 Clem. 52:1ff., which extols the resurrection; 61.3, where it takes a christological form; Hermas Mandates 10, which argues that the sorrowful cannot give God thanks), exomologeiÃsthai taÃs hamartiÃas is recommended (cf. 1 Clem. 50-51, where it is closely related to praise; 2 Clem. 8.1ff., which says it will come too late after death; Did. 4.14, where it should precede intercession; Hermas Similitudes 9.23.4, which may hint at formulas of remission).

3. homologesis, exomologesis. These words, denoting confession and praise of God, do not occur in the NT but are found in Hermas Similitudes 9.28.7 and 2.5.

4. homologoumenos. Diog. 5.4 uses this term in the sense “admittedly.”

5. Clement of Alexandria. Clement uses homologein in the various senses “to agree,” “to concede,” “to promise,” “to confess,” and homologia in the senses “agreement,” “assent,” “acceptance.” He offers an exposition of the Lord's sayings about confession in Stromateis 4.9.70ff. [O. MICHEL, V, 199-220]

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[ByTheSpirit]

I think the BIG problem with just quoting Romans 10:9-10 as "salvation" scripture is it is an incomplete text. The whole book of Romans is a statement on what it means to be a believer. Romans 10:9-10 is just part of that IMHO.

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
Romans 6:4 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rom.6.4.ESV

No one here will argue that scripture above taken from Romans 6 isn't referring to the salvation experience. Yet it clearly states baptism is a part of the "newness of life" that is offered. It is not necessarily the act of baptism that is important rather the heart of the one being baptized. Baptism is an act of obedience that shows we are repentant and wanting to follow Christ's example.

It is hard to reconcile a heart that refuses to be baptized and yet claims salvation due to a "prayer" as a true born again matter. One who has been born again, even though they are not perfect in this realm, will strive to be obedient in every aspect. Baptism is but one method of that.

Confess, be baptised, call on his name, etc....

 

[ByTheSpirit]

To finish my thought...

Romans 6:16 NIV, Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves you are slaves to the one you obey... or to OBEDIENCE [to the teaching given by the Apostles v.17; 6:1-14]... obedience to the teachings leads to righteousness...

If righteousness came from uttering a prayer, Paul had ample opportunity to say so. Instead he says in Rom 6 and many other places it is obedience to the Spirit that leads a person to righteousness, as does all scripture.

 

[Alithis]

I think the BIG problem with just quoting Romans 10:9-10 as "salvation" scripture is it is an incomplete text. The whole book of Romans is a statement on what it means to be a believer. Romans 10:9-10 is just part of that IMHO.

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
Romans 6:4 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rom.6.4.ESV

No one here will argue that scripture above taken from Romans 6 isn't referring to the salvation experience. Yet it clearly states baptism is a part of the "newness of life" that is offered. It is not necessarily the act of baptism that is important rather the heart of the one being baptized. Baptism is an act of obedience that shows we are repentant and wanting to follow Christ's example.

It is hard to reconcile a heart that refuses to be baptized and yet claims salvation due to a "prayer" as a true born again matter. One who has been born again, even though they are not perfect in this realm, will strive to be obedient in every aspect. Baptism is but one method of that.

Confess, be baptised, call on his name, etc....

totally agree with you in the blue .. And throughout your post ,but now knowing baptism is far more then only and " act" of obedience but is the power of god at work in it .. when we are baptised IN FAITH god actually causes us to die in christ .. it is not only symbolic of it .. it actually occurs ..it is a linking merge if you wil between the physical and spiritual realm .
if a person is baptised without faith ,, they get wet .
if they are baptised on their own faith .. they get buried into christ's death and raised up a new creation and dont go on in the continuance of the practice of sin .. they swiftly come out of practicing it .the new nature of chrsit within them doesnt want sin any more and begin to shun it . if the person walks in the Spirit of chrsit then they find themselves shunning it .. its not really a great effort , they just start doing what the holy Spirit leads them to start doing and there their focus remains and after a while they look back and observe .. hmm i dont do that other stuff any more praise god .