SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

[GoingByzantine]

Its extraordinary, the lengths people will go to, on a Christian based website to oppose the plainly written word.
But as the jws, Mormons and a whole host of other sects prove, you can reason the bible to say just about anything you want if you try hard enough.

Ariel, why did you leave this thread. I only had to read one of your posts to know someone had entered the debate who was led of the Holy Spirit into truth. Come back, pleeeease

That's the thing, much of scripture is not plainly written. If a person is unable to understand the context in which it was written, it can lead to false conclusions. Not everything can be taken at surface value.

 

[Arsenios]

That's the thing, much of scripture is not plainly written. If a person is unable to understand the context in which it was written, it can lead to false conclusions. Not everything can be taken at surface value.

Especially Christ's two very different Natures...

Knowing which one is being referred to in any particular passage is essential for understanding that passage...

The whole of Christology hinges on this distinction and differentiation...

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's the thing, much of scripture is not plainly written. If a person is unable to understand the context in which it was written, it can lead to false conclusions. Not everything can be taken at surface value.

The thing is, the human intellect was not designed to understand the spiritual/ lead into spiritual truth, that is why Jesus said the holy spirit would be sent to lead believers into truth.
How many, in their hearts, on websites such as these, totally rely on the spirit of truth to lead them into truth?

 

[Arsenios]

The thing is, the human intellect was not designed to understand the spiritual/ lead into spiritual truth, that is why Jesus said the holy spirit would be sent to lead believers into truth.
How many, in their hearts, on websites such as these,
totally rely on the spirit of truth to lead them into truth?

All of us, I would hope, according to our degree of repentance, which is the sine qua non of our capacity to receive and hold the Holy Spirit... iow It is not an either-or question as you are framing it, but a matter of degree... And the fact is in the West that the preparation of the person to receive and hold the Holy Spirit varies from extremely weak to non-existent... [unlike the excellent preparation of Cornelius, btw]... Hence when the Holy Spirit comes, He comes into unrepentant non-preparation, and the prism of the self-not-denied gravely distorts the image projected through it...

The fact that the Apostolic Churches are so utterly alike from earliest times bears witness to their witness today...
The fact that western Churches are disintegrating bears another witness...

God Bless You, my Brother...

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

All of us, I would hope, according to our degree of repentance, which is the sine qua non of our capacity to receive and hold the Holy Spirit... iow It is not an either-or question as you are framing it, but a matter of degree... And the fact is in the West that the preparation of the person to receive and hold the Holy Spirit varies from extremely weak to non-existent... [unlike the excellent preparation of Cornelius, btw]... Hence when the Holy Spirit comes, He comes into unrepentant non-preparation, and the prism of the self-not-denied gravely distorts the image projected through it...

The fact that the Apostolic Churches are so utterly alike from earliest times bears witness to their witness today...
The fact that western Churches are disintegrating bears another witness...

God Bless You, my Brother...

Arsenios

Firstly, after the rather extraordinary lengths you went to to try and disprove the words of Christ and Peter, I realised that fruitful, serious debate is utterly impossible between us.
Secondly, if you were filled with the holy spirit you would be able to understand the messages of the writers of the epistles, most of which sadly you do not. As i have many times previously mentioned, the reason for this is given by Christ to his disciples in john 16:12
Thirdly, the only churches growing in number in the UK are Charismatic / evangelical churches. I would be surprised if it is any different your side of the pond. People in desperate need, require the power of the gospel to meet their needs, the power is in the truth being preached, always was.
Fourthly, your church, IS NOT a true reflection of first century Christianity. You do not understand the meat of their Christianity, which is why you only really feel safe looking to the Gospels, not beyond them Back to john 16:12
Lastly, at the outset of our discussions i told you the true dividing line in Christendom was not according to denomination but the Holy Spirit. My discussions with you have resoundedly endorsed/proved that view correct( not that it needed proving)
You are one side of the dividing line and I am the other, and never the twain shall meet as it were

 

[prodromos]

Thirdly, the only churches growing in number in the UK are Charismatic / evangelical churches.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Orthodox Church has been steadily growing in numbers in the UK.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Orthodox Church has been steadily growing in numbers in the UK.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the only churches growing in numbers through new converts in the UK are charismatic / evangelical churches.
Of course, many polish people, and east Europeans have come to the UK since the event of open borders in the EU and they have continued in the church they were in before they came. But that apart, what I wrote is accurate
In fact, among the indigenous population in the UK, people have been deserting the established/ orthodox churches in record numbers

 

[prodromos]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the only churches growing in numbers through new converts in the UK are charismatic / evangelical churches.
Of course, many polish people, and east Europeans have come to the UK since the event of open borders in the EU and they have continued in the church they were in before they came. But that apart, what I wrote is accurate
In fact, among the indigenous population in the UK, people have been deserting the established/ orthodox churches in record numbers

It is actually converts who are causing the growth in the Orthodox Church, not immigrants. It will be interesting to see the how the demographics change over the next 10 to 20 years

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is actually converts who are causing the growth in the Orthodox Church, not immigrants. It will be interesting to see the how the demographics change over the next 10 to 20 years

I have seen programmes in recent years on the BBC questioning why so many are deserting the most tradititionally orthodox churches in such ever greater numbers

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course, there are charismatic orthodox churches, many of these are growing in number.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I read something startling in a newspaper three years ago.
It showed two churches and a mosque in close proximity to each other in an area of London.
One of the churches would be considered orthodox, the other as well probably. Both of them were no more than one third full.
The writer of the caption noted when John Weslley once spoke twice on a Sunday in one of the churches the church was packed out on both occasions.
The mosque close to the churches could not hold all those who wanted to worship in it, roughly five hundred. They spilled out onto the roads and prayed there.
There is a huge untapped market as it were that would flock to churches IF( if) the truth were fully preached, for the cross of Christ is not weak in power.
But to see the power you have to fully embrace the Holy Spirit.
A trinity, in reality of Father, Son and the bible, leaves impotent religion, reflected by the empty seats in many churches

 

[stuart lawrence]

In this debate an orthodox partitioner has insisted the christian is under a law of righteousness. That is in contradiction to what is repeatedly stated in the bible.
Why the contradiction?
Because to the human intellect, if you withdraw a law of righteousness the christian has a licence to sin! That I all the human mind can grasp.

Another orthodox believer has Continually stated the writer of Hebrews contradicts Christ.
Why does he say that? Because his human intellect cannot fathom the truth of what is written

AN orthodox has stated baptism in water and baptism in the spirit I one event though scripture clearly shows they are two different events.

An orthodox person refuses to accept the holy spirit can be given BEFORE baptism in water though scripture clearly shows he is wrong.

An orthodox person has stated the most important event in your life is being baptised in water.
That is monstrous. The most important event in the believers life is responding to Christ when the spirit draws you to him.

An orthodox person states the holy spirit enters your life through the waters of baptism, though obviously can offer no scriptural support for this view.

No orthodox person I have spoken to understands the message given to paul to preach.

And all of the above is before we get to the orthodox belief that Mary is queen of heaven and sits there now at Christs right hand.
Obviously no scriptural support for that belief either

If people allowed themselves to be led of the holy spirit into truth, they would not insist a law of righteousness exists for the christian, neither would they state the writer of Hebrews contradicts Christ, to name but two things.

The human intellect was not designed to lead the believer into truth

 

[prodromos]

I have seen programmes in recent years on the BBC questioning why so many are deserting the most tradititionally orthodox churches in such ever greater numbers

If you saw it on TV then it must be true.

 

[stuart lawrence]

If you saw it on TV then it must be true.

Yes, if I saw it on the BBC I should be able to trust their data. And of course, they interviewed people from the catholic & C of E hierarchy who did not deny it was true. Rather they were seeking ways to address the steady decline in their church numbers

And of course newspapers( which i trust less) have often reported on the dwindling numbers in the established/ orthodox churches

 

[prodromos]

Yes, if I saw it on the BBC I should be able to trust their data. And of course, they interviewed people from the catholic & C of E hierarchy who did not deny it was true. Rather they were seeking ways to address the steady decline in their church numbers

And of course newspapers( which i trust less) have often reported on the dwindling numbers in the established/ orthodox churches

So no mention of the Orthodox Church?

 

[stuart lawrence]

So no mention of the Orthodox Church?

What to you is the orthodox church?

 

[prodromos]

What to you is the orthodox church?

I don't know? Deliberate obfuscation on your part? I've made no mention of 'little o' orthodox.

What, to you is the Orthodox Church?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't know? Deliberate obfuscation on your part? I've made no mention of 'little o' orthodox.

What, to you is the Orthodox Church?

Well from what others tell me on other websites:

RC, EOC, C of E

Strange how they, and Arsrnoir have an idea of what they term an orthodox church but you haven't a clue. Oh well

 

[prodromos]

Well from what others tell me on other websites:

RC, EOC, C of E

Strange how they, and Arsrnoir have an idea of what they term an orthodox church but you haven't a clue. Oh well

That isn't what I asked you. Oh well.

 

[stuart lawrence]

That isn't what I asked you. Oh well.

Well I can only try my best. In the churches I go to the word orthodoxy isnt mentioned
So strictly going by the people I meet on the internet who most insist they are part of the orthodox church, the image conjoured up in my mind of orthodoxy, based on the people who claim that as their church, is one of lifeless religion built around the recital of creeds, pre scripted prayers, rite, ritual and ceremony.
Does that help?

Oh yes, and such people seem to find it impossible to accept the christian has a righteousness before God apart from the law. Which proves they are not a replica of first century Christianity doesn't it