SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

[prodromos]

There is a type of orthodoxy which can aptly be termed as a man in a canoe without a paddle.
It believes baptism in water and baptism in the holy spirit are the same thing/ one event. In reality the people who attach themselves to this belief have baptism in water but NOT baptism in the holy spirit.
They are then bereft of being led into truth by the one Christ told the disciples would lead them into truth.
I am afraid it leaves the individual with a powerless form of religion, which Is then built around, rite, ritual and ceremony. The little grey cells try and understand spiritual truth contained in the words of the bible. It is a forlorn effort.
This thread, and a previous thread have sadly, proved the above to be true

When I read posts that are bereft of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, I know instinctively that they are untrustworthy, no matter how much 'plain' Scripture is quoted.

 

[stuart lawrence]

When I read posts that are bereft of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, I know instinctively that they are untrustworthy, no matter how much 'plain' Scripture is quoted.

Would you say the same of Jesus words in Matthew ch23?

Someone in this thread has continually accused the writer of Hebrews of contradicting Christ.
I assume you did not read those posts, otherwise I would wonder why you did not respond with a rebuke to an obvious attempt to discredit the bible

 

[Arsenios]

Where was the thief with Jesus when they died at Calvary?

In Paradise...

Paul wrote:
To live (is) Christ...
To die (is) gain...

And Christ confirms it here:

John 11:26
And whosoever is living and believing in Me...
Shall never die...
Believest thou this?

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

In Paradise...

Paul wrote:
To live (is) Christ...
To die (is) gain...

And Christ confirms it here:

John 11:26
And whosoever is living and believing in Me...
Shall never die...
Believest thou this?

Arsenios

I think all would agree the thief was with Jesus in paradise for that is where Christ plainly told the thief they would be!
The issue is whether the paradise Jesus referred to was heaven or not.
How do you think Peter would have answered that question?

And seeing this before he spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Acts2:31.

 

[Arsenios]

When I read posts that are bereft of the fruits of the Holy Spirit,
I know instinctively that they are untrustworthy,
no matter how much 'plain' Scripture is quoted.

Would you say the same of Jesus words in Matthew ch23?

The words of Jesus in Matt 23
are NOT bereft
of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I think all would agree the thief was with Jesus in paradise for that is where Christ plainly told the thief they would be!
The issue is whether the paradise Jesus referred to was heaven or not.
How do you think Peter would have answered that question?

And seeing this before he spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Acts 2:31

Heaven is the Person of Christ-God...
His Kingdom is His Body...
And Paradise?
The abode of the Saints...
The Home of the Living
Before and after death,
and prior to the Resurrection...
On the Dread Day
Of the Last Judgement...

The Thief was Baptized in his own blood...
Confessing Christ and His Kingdom...
Nailed to his own cross...

Paradise is the 3rd Heaven Paul visited...
Prior to death...

Arsenios

 

[prodromos]

The words of Jesus in Matt 23
are NOT bereft
of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

Indeed, we hear them repeated every Pascha in that ceremony and ritual we know as Holy Week.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The words of Jesus in Matt 23
are NOT bereft
of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

Glad to hear it.
So people can be told they are hypocrites, sons of hell, blind guides, fools etc by those displaying the fruits of the spirit.
Thank you

 

[stuart lawrence]

Heaven is the Person of Christ-God...
His Kingdom is His Body...
And Paradise?
The abode of the Saints...
The Home of the Living
Before and after death,
and prior to the Resurrection...
On the Dread Day
Of the Last Judgement...

The Thief was Baptized in his own blood...
Confessing Christ and His Kingdom...
Nailed to his own cross...

Paradise is the 3rd Heaven Paul visited...
Prior to death...

Arsenios

The question was:
In view of Acts2:31 would Peter have believed the paradise Jesus referred to on the cross was heaven?
Was it or wasn't it?
Yes or no
If you wouldn't mind

 

[stuart lawrence]

Indeed, we hear them repeated every Pascha in that ceremony and ritual we know as Holy Week.

I think it I wonderful to repeat the words of matt 23 in church:

The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Verses2&3

I am sure people who obey that teaching, for instance would never insist a person must obey each and every literal command of Christ when they themself do not even try to obey them all
I mean, if those verses were repeated in a ceremony and ritual, then people went out after the ritual and demanded of others what they failed to even try to do in their own lives, I doubt the ritual did them any good, as I imagine you would agree

 

[Arsenios]

The question was:
In view of Acts 2:31 would Peter have believed the paradise Jesus referred to on the cross was heaven?
Was it or wasn't it?
Yes or no
If you wouldn't mind

You might want to consider getting used to the coalescence of two terms which you now seem to think involve direct and unabidable contradiction...

Those two terms are:
ALREADY
and
NOT YET

We can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven while here on earth...
THAT is the meaning of the Gospel - Good News indeed!
Christ is Risen, and Death is spoiled!
Surely you agree...

So now...

Are we then by that admission also forced to say that earth is Heaven?
That Heaven abides on earth?
That heaven and earth are one?

Surely not!
And surely yes!

Paul said it best: We already have an earnest... We do not yet have it fully...

So you answered your own question:
Yes or no?
Yes AND no...

Antinomial thinking is Patristic...
Paul would approve!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I think it I wonderful to repeat the words of matt 23 in church:

The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Verses2&3

I am sure people who obey that teaching, for instance would never insist a person must obey each and every literal command of Christ when they themself do not even try to obey them all
I mean, if those verses were repeated in a ceremony and ritual, then people went out after the ritual and demanded of others what they failed to even try to do in their own lives, I doubt the ritual did them any good, as I imagine you would agree

Ya still are sounding bitter!
I mean, c'mon!
Where's the Joy?

"Restore unto me the Joy of Thy Salvation...
And renew a Right Spirit within me..." Ps 51

Praying that Psalm every day kinda rubs it into your soul...
Granted, of course, if you are anything like me...
That it rubs in absolutely against the lay of the fur!

Jes' sayin'!

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

Ya still are sounding bitter!
I mean, c'mon!
Where's the Joy?

"Restore unto me the Joy of Thy Salvation...
And renew a Right Spirit within me..." Ps 51

Praying that Psalm every day kinda rubs it into your soul...
Granted, of course, if you are anything like me...
That it rubs in absolutely against the lay of the fur!

Jes' sayin'!

Arsenios

Have you not read matthew23?
Jesus wasn't happy at those who did not practice what they preached.
If that didn't make Jesus happy, why would you expect it to make me happy?
Possibly I touched a nerve.
After all you yourself have said all of Christs literal commands must be obeyed, but do you yourself obey them all?

Sarcasm is the last refuge of the scoundrel, so they say in the uk
Just sayin

 

[stuart lawrence]

You might want to consider getting used to the coalescence of two terms which you now seem to think involve direct and unabidable contradiction...

Those two terms are:
ALREADY
and
NOT YET

We can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven while here on earth...
THAT is the meaning of the Gospel - Good News indeed!
Christ is Risen, and Death is spoiled!
Surely you agree...

So now...

Are we then by that admission also forced to say that earth is Heaven?
That Heaven abides on earth?
That heaven and earth are one?

Surely not!
And surely yes!

Paul said it best: We already have an earnest... We do not yet have it fully...

So you answered your own question:
Yes or no?
Yes AND no...

Antinomial thinking is Patristic...
Paul would approve!

Arsenios

I feel for your hopeless position here, I really do.
You surely believe that when Christ and the thief died they went to heaven. That is what nearly every orthodox/ catholic I have debated with does believe.
So what you gonna do? If you come out and plainly state that you know the scriptures you are outrightly contradicting, including the words of Christ himself. You cant give way to the scriptures for they are irrelevant when they contradict your church beliefs.
So what is left to you?
To reply as you have!

Another nail in the coffin of your form of orthodoxy methinks

 

[Arsenios]

You surely believe that
when Christ and the thief died they went to heaven.

OK - Here comes my nail puller...
But I gotta warn you it is not anything you don't already know...
Christ had TWO natures...
One Person, Christ...

So He met the Wise Thief in Paradise that very day...
EVEN AS...
He descended into Hell to raise the dead...

I know, I know - You think this is bilocationalism or some such...

Another nail in the coffin of Orthodoxy...

I can only reply: This is God...

God is not held in concepts...

He is held in a pure conscience...

God will never reduce to our fallen human conceptualizations...

Arsenios

PS -
Lord Have Mercy!
This is post number 1000 from me on this site...
They shoot horses, don't they??

A.

 

[stuart lawrence]

OK - Here comes my nail puller...
But I gotta warn you it is not anything you don't already know...
Christ had TWO natures...
One Person, Christ...

So He met the Wise Thief in Paradise that very day...
EVEN AS...
He descended into Hell to raise the dead...

I know, I know - You think this is bilocationalism or some such...

Another nail in the coffin of Orthodoxy...

I can only reply: This is God...

God is not held in concepts...

He is held in a pure conscience...

God will never reduce to our fallen human conceptualizations...

Arsenios

PS -
Lord Have Mercy!
This is post number 1000 from me on this site...
They shoot horses, don't they??

A.

Jesus said:
Do not hold onto me, for i have NOT YET( NOT YET) returned to the father
John 20:17

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, SO THE SON OF MAN WILL BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH
Matt12:40

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was NOT LEFT in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Acts2:31

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus said:
Do not hold onto me, for i have NOT YET( NOT YET) returned to the father
John 20:17

He is speaking of His human nature - In His Divine Nature, He never left the Father...

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, SO THE SON OF MAN WILL BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH
Matt12:40

Any part of a day in those times included the day and the night...

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was NOT LEFT in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Acts2:31

He did not see corruption in his human flesh, nor was His human soul left in Hades...

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

Its extraordinary, the lengths people will go to, on a Christian based website to oppose the plainly written word.
But as the jws, Mormons and a whole host of other sects prove, you can reason the bible to say just about anything you want if you try hard enough.

Ariel, why did you leave this thread. I only had to read one of your posts to know someone had entered the debate who was led of the Holy Spirit into truth. Come back, pleeeease

 

[stuart lawrence]

He is speaking of His human nature - In His Divine Nature, He never left the Father...



Any part of a day in those times included the day and the night...



He did not see corruption in his human flesh, nor was His human soul left in Hades...

Arsenios

So Jesus, in his divine nature did not enter hell, for that nature never left the father.
Jesus human nature therefore entered hell, but as you admit, that nature did not then enter heaven/ did not return to the father during the time of Christs death and resurrection
So when Christ, in his human nature died at Calvary, he could not have then entered heaven with the thief, after firstly going to hell.
But you said.... Never mind.

PLEASE Arsenoir, dont give me your explanation, enough already

 

[Arsenios]

Its extraordinary, the lengths people will go to, on a Christian based website to oppose the plainly written word...
You can reason the bible to say just about anything you want if you try hard enough.

It is the hermaneutic that resolves much, if not all, of the polarizing of Christ found in the NT... He was human AND He remained God... And that hermaneutic is essential in resolving apparent contradictions, such as the one you have pointed out, with the Wise Thief seeing Christ in Paradise three days prior to Christ going to Paradise...

Three days in the tomb, as Jonas was three days in the belly of the whale... And all the time in Paradise even prior to Creation... Divine Nature is not limited by time or space or anything else... Rationalistic time sequencing of the Divine Nature of Christ is of no effect... But it does affect Christ Incarnate...

Arsenios