SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

[stuart lawrence]

Romans 7:2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of the marriage. 3So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she is joined to another man, she is not an adulteress. 4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God.


The husband is the old humanity. Even when there was no law, men still died. Even when men did not sin the sin of Adam, they still died. This indicates all of humanity from Adam to Christ are bound to the old covenant.

Adam represented humanity and all the liabilities he incurred on entering covenant through gaining knowledge of good and evil, fell on his descendants. Christ, as the second Adam, took on all the liabilities and settled the outstandings. As a representative with a clean slate, he was entitled to draw up a new covenant.

Are we identified with the old humanity? No, there is no old humanity. If there was, we would be obliged to remain in it, we can't be attached to two "families", that would be bigamy and illegal. The old humanity must die, for us to be free to be part of the new humanity, formed when Christ was raised to represent new Man.

Clear as mud? Excellent!

Ah, get rom ch7 right and you've cracked I so to speak!
No need to go over the first three verses.
In 4-6 Paul stresses the need to die to the law( of righteousness) in order to live for God.
If we don't, sinful passions will be aroused I us by the law
We die to the law of righteousness and serve by following after the holy spirit not the written code

Which law is Paul speaking of in these verses? All of it, or the mosaic law but not the ten commandments?

Well in the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law, for sin, taking advantage of the commandment simply magnified the sin. The example he gave was:
Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the ten commandments.
After stressing the law itself is holy, righteous and good, he goes on to elaborate of his struggles and faliure to obey the law he has been speaking of in verses 7-11.
The whole chapter concerns the moral law( ten commandments) not the legalistic law from verse 4 onwards, though the whole law is died to for the christian unto righteousness.

The chapter is the best example given as to why:
Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

For the power of sin is the law 1 cor15:56

Howzat!!

 

[Arsenios]

I will repeat yet again. The bible shows us you can be baptised in water but this does not result in you being filled with the spirit.
The bible shows us you can be filled with the holy spirit prior to being baptised in water.
Neither of these two things does your church accept though they are clearly shown to be the truth in the bible.
You gave no scripture to refute these obvious truths, so in desperation try and invent one.
I repeat, I find it distasteful when people on websites such as these refuse the obvious truths of scripture and try to deflect from them, and / or bog the conversation down however they can to avoid the truth of the plainly written word. I am not going to help you di that!!!
And I will yet again repeat. The bible states man baptised in water, but it does NOT state man baptised in the holy spirit.
The true church that reflects first century Christianity I the one that accepts the plain text of the bible, not one that wishes to usurp it!!

The bible clearly shows baptism in water and baptism in the spirit arevtwo different events. However, as Mormons, jws, and others prove, you can make the bible say what you want I you try hard enough

And if you wish to keep repeating those under the old covenant received the holy spirit as those under the new covenant do, why do you not respond to all those scriptures I put up concerning your point. Here's one of them:

But I tell you the truth it is good for you I am going away. UNLESS I GO AWAY THE COUNSELLOR WILL NOT COME TO YOU john16:7

According to you, the counsellor I already fully there!
According to Jesus he is yet to be sent.

Forgive me, but I believe Jesus

You have the last word...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The chapter [Rom 7] is the best example given as to why:

"Sin shall not be your master,
for you are not under law
but under grace." Rom 6:14

"For the power of sin is the law," 1Cor 15:56

1Co 15:54-7
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy victory?"

The sting of death - sin.
The power of sin - the Law.

But thanks be to God,
Who is giving us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is clearly saying that, at the General Resurrection, at the Last Judgement, Death, the last and final enemy of mankind, will be cast out, and we will no longer have Death as a factor in our existence, and as a consequence, we will no longer have to endure the sting of death, which is sin, and therefore will not longer be under imposed compulsion, the Law, which punishes sin and suppresses it, yet only makes its power more apparent... That is our condition now, under ANY law that enforces righteousness... And it is especially true under the Levitical Law of Moses which enforces the Righteousness of God...

Compulsion under the Law is antithetical to the Love of God...
Loving God, Repentance from evil, MUST be voluntary...

So here is my question for you:

What can we DO in this life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven that is here and now at hand upon this earth?
What DOES this Word of God recorded in the Gospel of Matthew mean in this regard?

Mat_11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is permitting violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.

And what do these other words of our Lord have to do with our escape from the Law?

Mat_16:24
If anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
And take up his own cross
And be following Me...

Do these words have anything to do with our escape from the Law?

If I have you aright, you think that the Holy Spirit places the Law in the Flesh of our Heart in a Spiritual event, so that for those of us who have not experienced this (Pentecost?) Event, which I suspect is most of us on the web-site, we are thereby placed out of the running...

Would you please sort me out on this?

Paul, quoted above, thanks God through Jesus Christ, for his escape from sin and the Law...

What does that mean?


Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

1Co 15:54-7
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy victory?"

The sting of death - sin.
The power of sin - the Law.

But thanks be to God,
Who is giving us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is clearly saying that, at the General Resurrection, at the Last Judgement, Death, the last and final enemy of mankind, will be cast out, and we will no longer have Death as a factor in our existence, and as a consequence, we will no longer have to endure the sting of death, which is sin, and therefore will not longer be under imposed compulsion, the Law, which punishes sin and suppresses it, yet only makes its power more apparent... That is our condition now, under ANY law that enforces righteousness... And it is especially true under the Levitical Law of Moses which enforces the Righteousness of God...

Compulsion under the Law is antithetical to the Love of God...
Loving God, Repentance from evil, MUST be voluntary...

So here is my question for you:

What can we DO in this life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven that is here and now at hand upon this earth?
What DOES this Word of God recorded in the Gospel of Matthew mean in this regard?

Mat_11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is permitting violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.

And what do these other words of our Lord have to do with our escape from the Law?

Mat_16:24
If anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
And take up his own cross
And be following Me...

Do these words have anything to do with our escape from the Law?

If I have you aright, you think that the Holy Spirit places the Law in the Flesh of our Heart in a Spiritual event, so that for those of us who have not experienced this (Pentecost?) Event, which I suspect is most of us on the web-site, we are thereby placed out of the running...

Would you please sort me out on this?

Paul, quoted above, thanks God through Jesus Christ, for his escape from sin and the Law...

What does that mean?


Arsenios

You need to ask one question at a time, I am using a mobile.
The power of sin is the law, and Paul means living under a legally, enforceable law with its penalty I place.
I would refer you to rom7:7-11.
When the law came to Paul the Pharisee, the result was he became a worse sinner. Sin used what was good and holy( the law) to arouse all manner of sin in Paul.

Paul states
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace

He also says:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith I Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law rom3:31.

Paul is consistent about this subject.

Paul's message here is understood by few sadly, very few. The natural mind will not fathom it.

By dying to a law of righteousness, sin shall not be your master.
Tragically, most who go to church believe It would be a licence to sin
Satan hoodwinks many, for he wants people to live under a law of righteousness, for he, as does Paul knows where sins true power lies.

But in truth, the only people that will understand this, are a certain group who attend church.
I chatted to a church of England minister about Paul's message once. She was horrified by what I told her, she would have no truck with it

 

[stuart lawrence]

1Co 15:54-7
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy victory?"

The sting of death - sin.
The power of sin - the Law.

But thanks be to God,
Who is giving us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is clearly saying that, at the General Resurrection, at the Last Judgement, Death, the last and final enemy of mankind, will be cast out, and we will no longer have Death as a factor in our existence, and as a consequence, we will no longer have to endure the sting of death, which is sin, and therefore will not longer be under imposed compulsion, the Law, which punishes sin and suppresses it, yet only makes its power more apparent... That is our condition now, under ANY law that enforces righteousness... And it is especially true under the Levitical Law of Moses which enforces the Righteousness of God...

Compulsion under the Law is antithetical to the Love of God...
Loving God, Repentance from evil, MUST be voluntary...

So here is my question for you:

What can we DO in this life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven that is here and now at hand upon this earth?
What DOES this Word of God recorded in the Gospel of Matthew mean in this regard?

Mat_11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is permitting violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.

And what do these other words of our Lord have to do with our escape from the Law?

Mat_16:24
If anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
And take up his own cross
And be following Me...

Do these words have anything to do with our escape from the Law?

If I have you aright, you think that the Holy Spirit places the Law in the Flesh of our Heart in a Spiritual event, so that for those of us who have not experienced this (Pentecost?) Event, which I suspect is most of us on the web-site, we are thereby placed out of the running...

Would you please sort me out on this?

Paul, quoted above, thanks God through Jesus Christ, for his escape from sin and the Law...

What does that mean?


Arsenios

BTW
It is the bible that very plainly states under the new covenant the law will be written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer.
You are the first person I have chatted to who denies God doing this. Others may not have considered it, but once shown the scriptures have not rejected the fact it happens.
I am surprised you appear so eager( if that is the right word) to claim the law has not been written on your mind and placed on your heart as a spiritual event by God.
The baptism of the holy spirit( or filling of the holy spirit) is a separate event to this.
You cant be under the new covenant if the law has not been placed on your heart and mind.

 

[stuart lawrence]

1Co 15:54-7
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy victory?"

The sting of death - sin.
The power of sin - the Law.

But thanks be to God,
Who is giving us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is clearly saying that, at the General Resurrection, at the Last Judgement, Death, the last and final enemy of mankind, will be cast out, and we will no longer have Death as a factor in our existence, and as a consequence, we will no longer have to endure the sting of death, which is sin, and therefore will not longer be under imposed compulsion, the Law, which punishes sin and suppresses it, yet only makes its power more apparent... That is our condition now, under ANY law that enforces righteousness... And it is especially true under the Levitical Law of Moses which enforces the Righteousness of God...

Compulsion under the Law is antithetical to the Love of God...
Loving God, Repentance from evil, MUST be voluntary...

So here is my question for you:

What can we DO in this life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven that is here and now at hand upon this earth?
What DOES this Word of God recorded in the Gospel of Matthew mean in this regard?

Mat_11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is permitting violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.

And what do these other words of our Lord have to do with our escape from the Law?

Mat_16:24
If anyone is willing
After Me to be following
Let him first deny himself
And take up his own cross
And be following Me...

Do these words have anything to do with our escape from the Law?

If I have you aright, you think that the Holy Spirit places the Law in the Flesh of our Heart in a Spiritual event, so that for those of us who have not experienced this (Pentecost?) Event, which I suspect is most of us on the web-site, we are thereby placed out of the running...

Would you please sort me out on this?

Paul, quoted above, thanks God through Jesus Christ, for his escape from sin and the Law...

What does that mean?


Arsenios

You say you believe most on this website would deny the law was written on their mind and placed on their heart.
Would most on this website deny they had heartfelt conviction of their sin once they became a Christian?
Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

If the law is placed on your heart, you have heartfelt conviction of your sin.

 

[Arsenios]

You say you believe most on this website would deny the law was written on their mind and placed on their heart.
Would most on this website deny they had heartfelt conviction of their sin once they became a Christian?
Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

If the law is placed on your heart, you have heartfelt conviction of your sin.

I had a conscience as an atheist...

Perhaps you could frame a couple of questions for a poll?

I would be interested in the results...


Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

I had a conscience as an atheist...

Perhaps you could frame a couple of questions for a poll?

I would be interested in the results...


Arsenios

Sure, here's two:

Did you have heartfelt conviction of your sin/ were you conscious of your sin when you were an atheist?



Once you became a christian, was your heartfelt conviction at breaking Gods laws( your sin) the same as it was when you were an atheist?

I'd be interested I the results of a poll too. Why not start a thread with these questions?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I had a conscience as an atheist...

Perhaps you could frame a couple of questions for a poll?

I would be interested in the results...


Arsenios

Can you give me the link to the thread you start for your poll.
Thanks

I would suggest that neither of us comment on the questions, but simply ask people to give their response to them. That is normally how polls are conducted, in the UK anyway

 

[Arsenios]

Sure, here's two:

Did you have heartfelt conviction of your sin/ were you conscious of your sin when you were an atheist?

No ... I simply knew I was really internally messed up...

Once you became a christian, was your heartfelt conviction at breaking Gods laws( your sin) the same as it was when you were an atheist?

Yes... The difference being that now I knew what to do about it...

I'd be interested I the results of a poll too. Why not start a thread with these questions?

If you will formulate the poll question(s) in the way you understand God to implant His Law upon your heart when a person becomes a Christian, I will start the poll thread - That way, you will have control of how the question is formed as you understand it... If I formulate the question, it will be only MY understanding of YOUR understanding, which would invalidate the poll, yes?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Can you give me the link to the thread you start for your poll.
Thanks

I would suggest that neither of us comment on the questions, but simply ask people to give their response to them. That is normally how polls are conducted, in the UK anyway

Well, US Colonials tend to be a tad less refined and rather more boisterous that the Home Country of the original Queen's English, but even so, I would have little problem with it - The issue here will be respondents' comments and discussions - Are we to keep ourselves out of these as well?

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

No ... I simply knew I was really internally messed up...



Yes... The difference being that now I knew what to do about it...



If you will formulate the poll question(s) in the way you understand God to implant His Law upon your heart when a person becomes a Christian, I will start the poll thread - That way, you will have control of how the question is formed as you understand it... If I formulate the question, it will be only MY understanding of YOUR understanding, which would invalidate the poll, yes?

Arsenios

I have already formulated two questions that give the result of the law being written on you mind and placed on your heart.
Did you not understand that?

Through the law we are conscious of our sin rom3:20

The questions are perfect for what we are seeking to know from others( although I say it myself)

 

[Arsenios]

By dying to a law of righteousness, sin shall not be your master.

What does a person DO to DIE to the Law of Righteousness?

Is it not necessary that OUR righteousness EXCEED that of the Pharisee?

How does that happen if not by our DOING righteousness...??

So what then is this DEATH to the LAW??

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I have already formulated two questions that give the result of the law being written on you mind and placed on your heart.
Did you not understand that?

No - I took them as personal questions to my particular life...
How many people on this site are former atheists?
And the questions are for an atheist...

Through the law we are conscious of our sin rom3:20

The questions are perfect for what we are seeking to know from others( although I say it myself)

OK - I will re-write them for a more general readership, but will hold off on posting them till you agree with them...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Here are your two questions:

1: Did you have heartfelt conviction of your sin/were you conscious of your sin
prior to becoming a Christian?

2: Once you became a Christian,
was your heart-felt conviction at breaking Gods laws (your sin)
the same as it was
before becoming a Christian?

Would these be accurate?

I sure have met a lot of Protestants who regard "conviction of sin" by their conscience, through the Holy Spirit, as THE turning point of their Christian walk...

BUT...

They were RAISED as Protestant Christians...

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

I had a conscience as an atheist...

Perhaps you could frame a couple of questions for a poll?

I would be interested in the results...


Arsenios

I haven't properly responded to this, my apologies.
Non christians/ athiests of course have a conscience when they step outside of their own particular moral scope.
I'm sure I hitler upset Eva Braun he would have felt bad/ had a conscience at doing so. But he didn't appear to have a conscience at being responsible for sending six million Jews to the gas chamber did he.
Jesus said the heathen love their own, and I am sure they would feel bad if they hurt someone they love.
But as an atheist you couldn't have had conviction of sin could you, for athiests don't believe God exists.
My question to you is.
Are you claiming the conscience you had as an atheist, if you stepped outside of your own particular Moral compass, was exactly the same as your conscience/ conviction of sin you had once you became a Christian?
And once you became a Christian were you only convicted to live as you believed you should as an atheist? In other words, the moral code you believed you should live by as an atheist, was exactly the same moral code you believed you should live by as a christian, nothing was added to this once you became a christian. So you didn't have a conscience once you were a christian, as long as you lived to the moral code you believed in as an athiest

 

[stuart lawrence]

No - I took them as personal questions to my particular life...
How many people on this site are former atheists?
And the questions are for an atheist...



OK - I will re-write them for a more general readership, but will hold off on posting them till you agree with them...

Arsenios

I will await your response to my questions concerning your conscience as an atheist and conscience as a Christian
However, they are correct questions concerning the law being written on the mind and placed on the heart.
I am genuinely surprised you do not see why

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here are your two questions:

1: Did you have heartfelt conviction of your sin/were you conscious of your sin
prior to becoming a Christian?

2: Once you became a Christian,
was your heart-felt conviction at breaking Gods laws (your sin)
the same as it was
before becoming a Christian?

Would these be accurate?

I sure have met a lot of Protestants who regard "conviction of sin" by their conscience, through the Holy Spirit, as THE turning point of their Christian walk...

BUT...

They were RAISED as Protestant Christians...

Arsenios

You have quoted correctly the two questions as I wrote them.

When he( the holy spirit) comes he will CONVICT the world of guilt in regard to SIN, righteousness and judgement.......
John 16:8

 

[stuart lawrence]

What does a person DO to DIE to the Law of Righteousness?

Is it not necessary that OUR righteousness EXCEED that of the Pharisee?

How does that happen if not by our DOING righteousness...??

So what then is this DEATH to the LAW??

Arsenios

Yes, our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees:
The Pharisees knew the literal words of the then scriptures off by heart. They were well educated and dressed well. They tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin. They attended all of the synagogue( or church)meetings. They did good deeds that everyone could see. They would have excelled at obeying all the rites, rituals and ceremonies according to the law. They demanded obedience to the law to an incredibly high level.
They would not have got drunk, had affairs, used foul language, nor smoked I imagine if smoking had then been invented. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said:
We would never have acted as they did.

Yet the people who did all that did not even know God according to Christ. And by doing all of that so well, as you say they had no true righteousness!
I wonder I anyone joined your church and passed all those tests as well as the Pharisees did whether you would accept them on that basis or discern they did not know God.
So why Did Jesus reserve his harshest words for them?
They didn't practice what they preached. They demanded of others what they failed to do in their own lives, and crushed the people by doing so, as do many who go to church today. They cleaned the outside of the cup, that which could be seen by men. But on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean.
Woe betide people who go to church today believing rite, ritual and ceremony will gain them entry into heaven, while they preach to others what they do not practice in their own lives. For Jesus said:
The yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy.
And woe to the people who are careful to clean the outside of the cup, that which can be seen by men, while on the inside they are full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean.
Does that answer your question concerning the Pharisees?

 

[stuart lawrence]

What does a person DO to DIE to the Law of Righteousness?



Arsenios

I will give you a detailed answer as to what one must do to die to a law of righteousnes tomorrow. I will copy/ paste something into this debate, cant do it now. It will take you about fifteen minutes to read. I cannot do your question justice in a couple of lines here.