SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

[Arsenios]

There is no difference!

So was Christ then Crucified for naught?

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Body that WROTE the Scriptures is the Body that knows their interpretation...



Of course! The Holy Spirit has been in creation since Genesis 1: "And the Spirit moved on the Face of the Deep..."

Throughout the OT too...

Presence, filling, and abidance of the Holy Spirit is NOT what NT Salvation delivers...
BECAUSE...
These were all present in OT times...



They were baptized in the Name of Jesus ONLY...

The MEN GAVE THEM the Holy Spirit...

The MEN John and Peter...

Remember?

ALL NT Baptism is in water...

Christian Baptism in water is given IN the Holy Spirit...

NOWHERE does the Holy Spirit Baptize ANYONE...



Scripture opposes the 2000 year interpretation of the Body of Christ that wrote it?

The Church is not private, just for starters...

But you are...

And I am...

So I go to the 2000 year history of the interpretationof Scripture from the Apostolic Body of Christ to have an opinion... My personal opinion is worthless... So is any personal opinion...

You go to your own very personal and very private interpretation...

Based on your life experience...

I do my best to avoid doing the same from MY personal life experience...


Arsenios

In truth, these type of websites should not be taken that seriously!
People come on them with set ideas, and no matter what scripture are placed before them they will never change their minds.
And many come on these websites believing they know much more truth than most, and they are here to give others the benefit of their knowledge as they see it. To admit to error would be unthinkable

And most just follow what their church teaches them.

You have not one scripture that states baptism in water is baptism in the holy spirit. There is plenty of scripture proving they are two distinct things
As for the holy spirit dwelling in believers under the old covenant as he does under the new.
Why on earth would Jesus tell the disciples to wait until the spirit came on them?
If you are right the spirit would already be on them!
Why did John say Christ would baptise with the holy spirit?

Why did Jesus say the spirit was WITH the disciples but would be IN them?
If you are right the spirit must already be IN them!!!
Why did Jesus say:

WHEN HE COMES( the holy spirit) he will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement.... John16:8

According to you the holy spirit is already there fully!!!


Exalted to the right hand hand of God, he HAS RECEIVED from the father the promised holy spirit and has poured out what you now see Acts2:33

How can Christ receive from the father and pour out what is already there?

But I tell you the truth. It is good for you that I am going away. UNLESS I GO AWAY THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME TO YOU john 16:7

How can Jesus say that if you are right? The comforter would already be there with them!!!

But this is pointless isn't it. No matter what is placed before you, you must refuse to accept it, for your mind is closed, you cannot see beyond what your church tells you to believe

 

[stuart lawrence]

Non-response - Engage the text!

Arsenios

PS - I did in the text you refuse to engage...

Ananias GAVE the Holy Spirit to Saul
Remember?
Maybe not, because you are not engaging that text...

Peter and John did too, Laying on of Hands...
Remember?

Arsenios

I don't need to engage your private interpretations.
JTB said Jesus would baptise with the holy spirit.
Give ne one scripture that states man will baptise with the holy spirit

 

[Butch5]

So was Christ then Crucified for naught?

Arsenios

Not at all!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Orthodox should be referred to as the orthodox mind of the human intellect

 

[tdidymas]

The Good News is Obedience to the command to be repenting because the Kingdom of Heaven is Here and Now... It is the one thing a person can DO of his own choosing, and if he or she does so, the Kingdom of Heaven will be attained - THAT is God's Promise to us...

And on this matter, both Peter and Paul agree:

Here's Paul:

2Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the Gospel
of our Lord Jesus Christ:

And here is Peter:

1Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the Gospel of God?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ our God is to be OBEYED...
Obedience is the treasury of the Gospel...

And NOT, I should add, their own AUTHORITY, so beloved of Latin Rome...

And yes, there is a lot more involved, but obedience is utterly essential...
IF one does not obey the Gospel...
IF one is not living a life of repentance...
IF one is not denying one's self...
IF one is not taking up their own Cross...

Then that one will NOT attain the Kingdom of Heaven...
Not in this life...
And in the next, God will judge...
And I feel very certain that among those who neither know God nor obey His Gospel,
Who are the those who are Dead in this life...
Many will be found WAY ahead of me in the line of people...
Who are entering Life Eternal...

For we who are living in Christ...
Are held to higher standards...
Than those who are not...

Arsenios

Again, you are wrong on what the gospel is. I know you are sincere in what you believe, but you are sincerely wrong. Obedience to the gospel is FAITH, not repentance, although repentance is the outcome of our faith. But to obey the gospel, you must BELIEVE the message, not "repent" as you describe it. You are correct in saying that the gospel is to be OBEYED. But if you are not believing that salvation is the free gift of God (which requires NO WORK from us), then you have not attained to obedience, as Paul describes it as obedience of faith. Rom. 1:5; 16:26. Salvation is the free gift of God (requiring NO WORK from us) is taught by the Apostle Paul: Rom. 3:24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-10 for example.
TD

 

[Arsenios]

Orthodox should be referred to as the orthodox mind of the human intellect

It is hard to kick against the goads...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Again, you are wrong on what the gospel is. I know you are sincere in what you believe, but you are sincerely wrong. Obedience to the gospel is FAITH, not repentance, although repentance is the outcome of our faith. But to obey the gospel, you must BELIEVE the message, not "repent" as you describe it. You are correct in saying that the gospel is to be OBEYED. But if you are not believing that salvation is the free gift of God (which requires NO WORK from us), then you have not attained to obedience, as Paul describes it as obedience of faith. Rom. 1:5; 16:26. Salvation is the free gift of God (requiring NO WORK from us) is taught by the Apostle Paul: Rom. 3:24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-10 for example.
TD

OK - We are saved BY Grace THROUGH the Faith of Christ, and the Gospel in the passages I provided is to be obeyed... That means that the Gospel is a command... To be obeyed... And the Faith is obedience to the command of the Gospel...

And you are right, the Grace that Saves CANNOT be earned, yet it is not given without obedience to the Gospel which is a command... Because that Grace is the Gift of God giving Himself to us in union with Himself if we obey the Gospel... Hence the Gift of Grace is a Gift and cannot be earned, because creation cannot earn God... The Union, you see, of God and man, can ONLY be given by God - It is God's to give, and our's to obey the Gospel that we receive it, for our receiving it is God's Will FOR us...

Thanks for the correction - The Gospel commands repentance, which is something we CAN do... Faith cannot be willed by man in himself... But IF you turn toward God in self denial from evil, you will acquire faith as your journey progresses... Which is just backwards from what so many believe - eg They believe that faith leads to repentance... A person can simply and empirically TEST the Faith of Christ by entering into a repentant life and seeing what happens as a result...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Not at all!

Good!

So if the OT Saints had the same Salvation as the NT Saints, what is the benefit of Christ's life and death on earth and resurrection on earth? And why did Christ say that the greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven? What to the NT Saints HAVE that the OT Saints do NOT HAVE?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I don't need to engage your private interpretations.

Just engage the Biblical text of Acts 9:17 and Acts 9:18

How do YOU account for these words:

Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Forget my interpretation - Explain what the text means in YOUR interpretation...

'Ts'OK we noe 'gree!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

[QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 69587164, member: 381615"
You have not one scripture that states baptism in water is baptism in the holy spirit. [/QUOTE]

Was Saul filled with the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias when Ananias baptized Saul?

Acts 9:17-18

Arsenios

 

[stuart lawrence]

[QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 69587164, member: 381615"
You have not one scripture that states baptism in water is baptism in the holy spirit.

Was Saul filled with the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias when Ananias baptized Saul?

Acts 9:17-18

Arsenios[/QUOTE]
You must be desperate my friend to respond with this comment.
Paul could receive the baptism of the holy spirit immediately as Ananias spoke, then he gets up and gets baptised in water. You are simply grasping at straws! That text does not state what you want it to.
When the believers at Samaria were baptised in water had they received the filling/ baptism of the holy spirit?
No! The text says the holy spirit had NOT YET come on any of them. That is the clearest of proof you are wrong.
Your church says you must be baptised in water to be baptised in the holy spirit/ filled with the holy spirit. Again scripture very clearly shows your error for Cornelius and his household were filled with the spirit before they were baptised in water.
You pick some random scriptures and insist they are rigidly followed according to your understanding of them. But when your beliefs are very clearly shown to be wrong according to scripture, you refuse to accept it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Just engage the Biblical text of Acts 9:17 and Acts 9:18

How do YOU account for these words:

Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Forget my interpretation - Explain what the text means in YOUR interpretation...

'Ts'OK we noe 'gree!

Arsenios

I've already responded to the above, scroll back to when you first asked me!
Now please respond to my question. Give me a biblical text that states man baptizes in the holy spirit.
I can give you biblical text that states Christ baptizes in the holy spirit, please just one verse of scripture, just one

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is hard to kick against the goads...

A.

Indeed, indeed it is

 

[stuart lawrence]

[QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 69587164, member: 381615"
You have not one scripture that states baptism in water is baptism in the holy spirit.

Was Saul filled with the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias when Ananias baptized Saul?

Acts 9:17-18

Arsenios[/QUOTE]
You have an enemy my friend, he wants to leave you in a form of religion while denying its true power. He doesn't want you to recognise the true filling of the holy spirit.
Your enemy also wants you to believe in some form of law of righteousness, for he understands, as did Paul where sins true power lies.

 

[stuart lawrence]

And why did Christ say that the greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Arsenios

You are asking why, those who dwell with God forever in heaven, never to die again, sinless, in their new bodies are considered greater than any of those who walk this earth in a corruptible body of flesh?
You are asking why, the least of these who dwell with God in heaven, are considered greater, than the greatest of those who walk this earth?




Will David, when he dwells with God in heaven be considered greater than the David who walked this earth?
Will Abraham, Moses, Paul, peter, James and john also be considered greater in heaven than they were when they walked this earth?

 

[stuart lawrence]

what is the benefit of Christ's life and death on earth and resurrection on earth?

Arsenios

There would be none if Christ only died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There would be none if Christ only died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion.

Why are only the pure able to see God?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why are only the pure able to see God?

Who can have a pure heart before God by trying to be good enough under the law?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Who can have a pure heart before God by trying to be good enough under the law?

You are supposed to reply that sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

Next question:

Why are children considered not prosecutable under criminal law?