Saddleback Church supports wife batterers

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There has been a recent report of the wife of a member of Rick Warren's Saddleback church being battered by her husband in a fit of rage. She reported the incident to one of the church pastors, believing that the church would believe and support her. To her horror, that pastor went and told her battering husband that she had "gossiped" about him.
After that, the church refused to believe or help her. As well as that, they did nothing to discipline the wife batterer, but promoted him to lead the church choir!

When she saw that the church was not going to help her, she went to the police, and the husband was taken to Court and sentenced. As part of the sentence, he was not permitted to associate with her, and as a result, she could not attend church, because instead of standing him down from ministry, he remained prominent in the ministry team.

Incidentally, the Life Church, where he was part of the ministry team before he had recently transferred to Saddleback, immediately took him off their ministry list.

The wife was subsequently frozen out of the Saddleback Church and treated as if she was the villain.

After hearing this, I was disgusted that a "christian" church would do this to a domestic violence victim. Firstly, that pastor did not respect confidentiality, and if he was a professional counsellor working for any reputable counselling organisation, he would have been fired, and deregistered.

Also, the senior pastors of the church did not stand the wife batterer down from ministry, and this shows that the Saddleback Church, and Rick Warren supports wife batterers and does not discipline them, even though wife battery is a grievous sin which should be repented of.

For this reason, I no longer believe that the Holy Spirit is working with that church. I believe that He has been grieved, and the Saddleback church is now reduced to a man oriented bless me club that God has withdrawn from. And this will be the case until the leadership of that church repents and gives full support and protection to victims of wife batterers, and disciplines those who beat their wives. I wonder how many victims of domestic violence are still going to that church and who are afraid to disclose it because of the sinful, antichristian attitude of that church's leaders.

I will also add that I believe that a husband who beats his wife in a fit of rage is actually demonized by an angry, violent spirit of power and control. Therefore to promote a man like that into a position of ministry is allowing a demonized man to have a position of influence in the church services. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit has departed, then it could be argued that another spirit that is not of God is leading the worship on Sundays when that man is leading the choir.

I am now going to take my copy of Rick Warren's book Purpose Driven Life, rip it up, and use it as toilet tissue, because that is all it is good for in the light of the sinful practice of that church of which he is the founder and senior pastor.

Although it appears to have life, Saddleback Church is really a dead monument that the glory of God has departed from, and it will be a matter of time before the decline will show.

 

[Faulty]

Two things.

1) That's anawful thing to happen to that woman, but at least she got out of that church as a result.

2) That book should have been fire-starter a loooooooong time ago.

 

[JimB]

There has been a recent report of the wife of a member of Rick Warren's Saddleback church being battered by her husband in a fit of rage. She reported the incident to one of the church pastors, believing that the church would believe and support her. To her horror, that pastor went and told her battering husband that she had "gossiped" about him.
After that, the church refused to believe or help her. As well as that, they did nothing to discipline the wife batterer, but promoted him to lead the church choir!

When she saw that the church was not going to help her, she went to the police, and the husband was taken to Court and sentenced. As part of the sentence, he was not permitted to associate with her, and as a result, she could not attend church, because instead of standing him down from ministry, he remained prominent in the ministry team.

Incidentally, the Life Church, where he was part of the ministry team before he had recently transferred to Saddleback, immediately took him off their ministry list.

The wife was subsequently frozen out of the Saddleback Church and treated as if she was the villain.

After hearing this, I was disgusted that a "christian" church would do this to a domestic violence victim. Firstly, that pastor did not respect confidentiality, and if he was a professional counsellor working for any reputable counselling organisation, he would have been fired, and deregistered.

Also, the senior pastors of the church did not stand the wife batterer down from ministry, and this shows that the Saddleback Church, and Rick Warren supports wife batterers and does not discipline them, even though wife battery is a grievous sin which should be repented of.

For this reason, I no longer believe that the Holy Spirit is working with that church. I believe that He has been grieved, and the Saddleback church is now reduced to a man oriented bless me club that God has withdrawn from. And this will be the case until the leadership of that church repents and gives full support and protection to victims of wife batterers, and disciplines those who beat their wives. I wonder how many victims of domestic violence are still going to that church and who are afraid to disclose it because of the sinful, antichristian attitude of that church's leaders.

I will also add that I believe that a husband who beats his wife in a fit of rage is actually demonized by an angry, violent spirit of power and control. Therefore to promote a man like that into a position of ministry is allowing a demonized man to have a position of influence in the church services. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit has departed, then it could be argued that another spirit that is not of God is leading the worship on Sundays when that man is leading the choir.

I am now going to take my copy of Rick Warren's book Purpose Driven Life, rip it up, and use it as toilet tissue, because that is all it is good for in the light of the sinful practice of that church of which he is the founder and senior pastor.

Although it appears to have life, Saddleback Church is really a dead monument that the glory of God has departed from, and it will be a matter of time before the decline will show.

My (educated) guess is that there is more to this story than has been reported.
　
~Jim

 

[pdudgeon]

there are always two sides to a story, and usually the truth is somewhere in between.

the whole idea here is to flee before you are battered.

usually there are signs before the battering happens that a man will become a batterer. if this wife stayed thru them out of love for her husband, then she also probably stayed thru a couple of previous incidents of battering, always believing her repentant husband that 'it wouldn't happen again'.
But it always does happen again, until he himself has to face some consequences of his battering instead of being the one who dishes out the consequences to others.

If anyone reading this is in such a situation, learn the lesson and run while you are still alive to do so.
Batters are fully capable of killing when enraged, and it is NOT YOUR FAULT!

for those on the outside of the problem, it's always hard to believe that things could get this bad in a marriage, but they can and they do far more often that we realize.

One more thing...if the battering is allowed to continue, then the children learn from the father's (bad) example that it's ok if anger leads to battering. So we're actually not just talking about one wife here, but a wife or husband and children, and potential grandkids all being battered as the experience is passed down from generation to generation.

and yes, mostly this kind of battering is almost always kept quiet and within the family from a wrong feeling of shame and degredation on the part of the victims.

Oscarr has shared publically on this forum that his knowledge of the subject comes from his binding up the wounds of such a battering, so be gentle with him, as this subject is still painful for him.

until we all get to heaven these kind of things and worse will happen. But our Lord knows what we have gone thru and will bring full justice to all those who suffer.

 

[singpeace]

Umm.. Oscarr, where did you read this report? What paper or News program was this story printed or aired?

 

[JEBrady]

Assuming the story is accurate, the leadership of Saddleback could repent all they may want to of their position on domestic violence, and it still wouldn’t mean the Holy Spirit would change His involvement amongst them. If He's offended with them, then the problem is more basic than that.

And as for The Purpose Driven life, you could have trashed that book without having to know anything about Saddleback or what goes on there, because the book is not scripturally sound. I wouldn’t recommend it as toilet tissue, however. You might regret that.

 

[JimB]

Assuming the story is accurate, the leadership of Saddleback could repent all they may want to of their position on domestic violence, and it still wouldn’t mean the Holy Spirit would change His involvement amongst them. If He's offended with them, then the problem is more basic than that.

And as for The Purpose Driven life, you could have trashed that book without having to know anything about Saddleback or what goes on there, because the book is not scripturally sound. I wouldn’t recommend it as toilet tissue, however. You might regret that.

Hi, JEB.

What problems do you see with Saddleback's Purpose Driven approach to ministry? You have made a sweeping (albeit unsupported) statement condemning it and I would like to see some support for your position.
　
BTW, I am not saying I support or condemn the PD approach to ministry. I just don't know enough about it to take a side.
　
~Jim

 

[probinson]

There has been a recent report of the wife of a member of Rick Warren's Saddleback church being battered by her husband in a fit of rage.

Actually, this was an instance from November 2003;

My Husband Assaulted Me, My Church Took His Side | momlogic.com

Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church condones domestic violence

 

[gratefulgrace]

It is ok to say there are two sides but it seems like there aren't at least I haven't seen any and it seems pretty convincing that there were previous abuse convictions against this guy. Saddleback needs to wake up and start serving and protecting their vulnerable members. The sad thing is years ago the church had a similar stance on child abuse too. Kept it swept under the carpet and SECRET and did a crappy job of trying to wish it away. But then so did the rest of society, the medical profession and military included.

 

[singpeace]

Well, I have to say I found lots of news reports about this. I read what she said. I cannot however, find a single response by Warren nor Saddleback church.

Interesting. And very disappointing.



Here is part of an article I found at divorcehope.com/abuseinmarriage

Abuse

Abuse in its different manifestations is the most destructive tool that can be used by anyone against another person. It is designed to distort a person’s view of reality and of God, thus keeping that person from having a fruitful life. When there is abuse going on in a relationship, it’s time to separate. It doesn’t matter how holy or good the person seems who is doing the violating.

There are different types of abuse and they are all designed for one thing and one thing only, DESTRUCTION! I believe all types of abuse can be put into one of these categories:

Physical Abuse: which is body torture that is used to subdue and control another person.

Sexual Abuse: torturing both a person physically and emotionally using unlawful acts as the weapon, anything immoral or illegal sexually.

Verbal Abuse: designed to distort the truth a person holds about something or someone, including themselves and God - to keep the victim from producing any fruit - in order to gain control over someone’s mind.

Spiritual (religious) Abuse: used to manipulate another person to serve any other god than Jesus while many times exalting the abuser. At its worse, it’s satanic ritual abuse, which many times include all the other categories of abuse.

Most sadly, all these types of abuses deeply scar the emotions of a person and usually greatly alters their perception and their ability to live life to its fullest. But there is hope. His name is Jesus. He has come to heal the broken-hearted.

 

[Tamara224]

It's not a surprise to me. Saddleback is complementarian (aka neopatriarchal). Their views on men - especially husbands - being leaders and women being submissive followers (always) leads directly to abuse. A man can't be told that God created him better than women, to lead women, to be the boss of women, and not reach the conclusion that in being the boss it's not a big deal to knock her around and yell at her if she's not obeying.

The rate of domestic abuse in evangelical circles is astounding. Some studies show that it is higher amongst church-going people than most other groups.

Most churches do not handle it well. Most pretend it doesn't happen in their church and take the cover-up and blame the victim route. Few ever even consider disciplining abusers.

It is especially prevalent in patriarchal or neo-patriarchal churches. And even more prevalent amongst "leaders" in some types of churches. Churches that teach that the husband is the spiritual leader over the wife and that the wife is supposed to submit to her husband in all things tend to downplay the connection between that teaching and the domination and abuse of women in their congregations.

All too frequently, battered and abused women are blamed for the abuse. They are told to just submit and their husbands will stop having reason to be angry and yell or hit. Most women who go to their church leaders for help in such a situation are told that they should just submit.

They are lied to, in other words.

The truth is... far too many people have an immediate reaction that it is somehow the victim's fault. Or people just choose not to believe abuse ever happened - saying instead that the woman is making it up, it wasn't "as bad" as she claimed, she provoked whatever it was, etc, etc, etc.

Violence against women is always treated that way. Rape or abuse victims often don't report because they know that doing so will expose them to blame, hatred, slander and gossip but that they will not receive compassion or justice.

Violence against women is treated as a given, a natural aspect of our world and people rarely get up in arms about it. Take, for example, the focus of the Evangelical Church in America. What are the big issues these days? Abortion and homosexual marriage.

Is the Church talking about the international sex slave trade? Nope. We're concerned about whether two men want to call themselves married to each other or not. We don't really care if millions of young women are being abducted and sold into sex slavery.

Nah, I'm not surprised. Men in power want to stay in power. Men in power tend to dominate and abuse. Just like that IMF guy who raped the poor maid at the hotel.

 

[JimB]

Like I said above, there has to be more to this story than is being reported (or mis-reported). I am no fan of Saddleback, but despite their theological imbalance (if there is any), what church of any repute would condone the physical abuse of another person?

I’m waiting for “the rest of the story.”

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. (1 Tim. 5.19)


~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, ​

not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ​

~C.S. Lewis​

 

[Incariol]

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. (1 Tim. 5.19)

Does bruising from being violently assaulted not count?

 

[Tamara224]

Like I said above, there has to be more to this story than is being reported (or mis-reported). I am no fan of Saddleback, but despite their theological imbalance (if there is any), what church of any repute would condone the physical abuse of another person?

I’m waiting for “the rest of the story.”

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. (1 Tim. 5.19)


~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen,
not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
~C.S. Lewis​

But why does there "have to be" another side to the story, Jim? Just because you don't like the idea of a man brutally beating his wife doesn't mean that he's got a good reason for it.

Also, to say that no "reputable church" would condone it, is, I'm very sorry to say - naive. Maybe willfully blind. They condone it every day by ignoring it; by blaming the victim; by demanding "two or three witnesses" before a victim is believed; by insisting that it isn't happening in their own churches when it is.

It happened 8 years ago. The "other side" has had ample opportunity to have their say, defend their actions or explain why it isn't really what it looks like.

The man was convicted of a crime over this, Jim. He has his opportunity in court to say the "other side" of the story. Apparently, the police who saw her injuries and the doctors who treated them were good enough witnesses to convict the guy.

Why weren't the same witnesses good enough witnesses to get him removed from leadership at the church?

Why weren't her bruises and injuries and the word of a woman who's character was never in question good enough reason to raise at least enough suspicion for the church to look into it?

At some point, the church's silence speaks for itself. If they had a defense, they would have used it.


Also, if every battered wife needs "two or three witnesses" to accuse her husband of abuse, then no battered wife will ever see justice done. Usually, wife-beaters don't beat their wives in front of witnesses, except maybe the children.

 

[NvxiaLee]

And as for The Purpose Driven life, you could have trashed that book without having to know anything about Saddleback or what goes on there, because the book is not scripturally sound. I wouldn’t recommend it as toilet tissue, however. You might regret that.

Paper cuts?

 

[NvxiaLee]

I'm not a fan of Saddleback church. They do tend toward Political Correctness, so I can't see them taking an ultra-conservative stance on domestic abuse. In other words, I highly doubt the accuracy of this story. I can't imagine a pastor accusing the woman of gossiping for bringing an issue to his attention.

How about some links, or the name of this supposedly convicted man? Before I join the lynch mob against Saddleback, I'd like to know more of the story.

 

[JimB]

But why does there "have to be" another side to the story, Jim? Just because you don't like the idea of a man brutally beating his wife doesn't mean that he's got a good reason for it.

Also, to say that no "reputable church" would condone it, is, I'm very sorry to say - naive. Maybe willfully blind. They condone it every day by ignoring it; by blaming the victim; by demanding "two or three witnesses" before a victim is believed; by insisting that it isn't happening in their own churches when it is.

It happened 8 years ago. The "other side" has had ample opportunity to have their say, defend their actions or explain why it isn't really what it looks like.

The man was convicted of a crime over this, Jim. He has his opportunity in court to say the "other side" of the story. Apparently, the police who saw her injuries and the doctors who treated them were good enough witnesses to convict the guy.

Why weren't the same witnesses good enough witnesses to get him removed from leadership at the church?

Why weren't her bruises and injuries and the word of a woman who's character was never in question good enough reason to raise at least enough suspicion for the church to look into it?

At some point, the church's silence speaks for itself. If they had a defense, they would have used it.


Also, if every battered wife needs "two or three witnesses" to accuse her husband of abuse, then no battered wife will ever see justice done. Usually, wife-beaters don't beat their wives in front of witnesses, except maybe the children.

T, for the record, I am against wife beating. I’m even against husband beating, for that matter.


As naïve as it may appear to you, my point is that I do not know what happened (nor does anyone else in this forum) so I cannot make a judgment about it. All of us who are in any type of leadership role have been the victims of unfounded rumors and have been amazed, if not distressed, when they have been believed, sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Frankly, what this story sounds like is just rumors running amok and/or some bad press.

That’s my opinion, but it does keep me on the safe side.For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. (Matt. 7.2)

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, ​

not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ​

~C.S. Lewis​

 

[probinson]

It's not a surprise to me. Saddleback is complementarian (aka neopatriarchal). Their views on men - especially husbands - being leaders and women being submissive followers (always) leads directly to abuse.

Well, that's just not true. It can lead directly to abuse, but it is absolutely not a given.

If my wife were on here, she would readily tell you that as my wife, she is happily in submission to me. However, she would also tell you that I Love her as Christ Loved the church.

Just because Saddleback church (or any other church for that matter) uses such doctrine to lord it over women does not mean that its an inevitably that abuse will occur. To the contrary, when one understands the order of marriage which I believe God has set up, it becomes so clear how much God expects of husbands.

The body of Christ is also called the "bride" of Christ. Throughout scripture, the comparison is drawn that shows how a husband/wife relationship is akin to the relationship Jesus Christ has with His church. When I look at that, I see an amazing responsibility as a husband to my wife, and I consider it a privilege and an honor.

I can tell you that nearly 12 years into our marriage that God's structure for marriage absolutely works. I can't tell you just how much I consider myself blessed to havea wife that understands and agrees with the God-ordered structure of marriage.

 

[Tamara224]

T, for the record, I am against wife beating. I’m even against husband beating, for that matter.

Of course.

As naïve as it may appear to you, my point is that I do not know what happened (nor does anyone else in this forum) so I cannot make a judgment about it.

But that's not the part of your post that I said was naive, Jim.

The part that was naive was this apparent belief that this kind of thing doesn't happen as often as it actually does, in "good" churches.

As far as none of us knowing what happened... perhaps we cannot know the full story, but we can know what the evidence tells us.

You say "wait and see" but... again... this happened 7 or 8 years ago. How long do we wait before we can make a judgment call about what most likely happened?

Given the fact that the man was actually convicted of a crime for the events, I think at the very least we can safely conclude that he is, in fact, guilty of beating his wife.

All of us who are in any type of leadership role have been the victims of unfounded rumors and have been amazed, if not distressed, when they have been believed, sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Frankly, what this story sounds like is just rumors running amok and/or some bad press.

1 in 4 (some statistics say 1 in 3) women in the United States are victims of domestic violence during their lives.

1 in 4, Jim. Every forth woman you see has been hit by her boyfriend, husband and/or father.

What are the statistics on how many women have falsely accused a man of abuse? I don't know. But I can guarantee that it's not nearly that high.

So... all things being equal, a woman who claims to have been abused is more likely to be telling the truth than lying.

While that won't tell us whether any particular person is guilty, it should be enough for us to treat accusations of abuse seriously and not to immediately - and without cause - suspect the victim of lying.

After all... which is worse? That a man should be slandered or that a woman should be exposed to continued abuse?

That’s my opinion, but it does keep me on the safe side.

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. (Matt. 7.2)

Does it? What does the Bible say about leaders who fail to act justly? Justice and judgment go hand in hand. If we never judge between accuser and accused, how is justice done?

 

[Tamara224]

Well, that's just not true. It can lead directly to abuse, but it is absolutely not a given.

The (always) was in regards to women being submissive (as in, not just to husbands but to all men), not to complementarian teaching always leading to abuse.

Sorry for the confusion.

Logically, the teaching of wifely submission leads directly to abuse unless there are mitigating teachings such as an emphasis on the husband loving his wife as Christ loved the church and servant leadership.

But please note that I said "Their views" by which I meant Saddleback's views and teaching on this leads to abuse.

As far as the relationship of husband and wife being likened to Christ and the church or vice versa.... I think those analogies - as all analogies - can be taken too far. And are taken too far. I've actually seen people claim that husbands are, in fact, mediators between God and their wives.

Such analogies have been taken to mean that women are spiritually inferior to men - just as the church is spiritually inferior to Christ.

I think we have to be careful to understand in what way the marriage relationship is analogous to the relationship of Christ and the Church. It is not in all ways similar.