Sabbath observance under extreme situations?

[gadar perets]

I am also of the prayer warriors with the "sword" of the Word. So each is given a talent, and not every believer had been given the call to arms.

I do not believe any believer is "called to arms".

 

[visionary]

I do not believe any believer is "called to arms".

And in that lays the dilemma... It might not be your calling.. But for those who believe they should become a police officer, then all the rights and responsibilities of being a police officer come with that job. If by faith, they can not kill, then this job is not for them. It is one of those necessary choices, they hope never happens, but are ready to do if necessary.

 

[gadar perets]

And in that lays the dilemma... It might not be your calling.. But for those who believe they should become a police officer, then all the rights and responsibilities of being a police officer come with that job. If by faith, they can not kill, then this job is not for them. It is one of those necessary choices, they hope never happens, but are ready to do if necessary.

I do not believe the Almighty would call someone to do something that negates "Love your enemy" and other commands of Yeshua. Just because a person feels led to become a police officer, it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is doing the leading.

 

[pat34lee]

I do not believe any believer is "called to arms".

There is always need for a Moses, Joshua, Caleb or Gideon.
The warfare may be spiritual mostly, but not always.

 

[pat34lee]

I do not believe the Almighty would call someone to do something that negates "Love your enemy" and other commands of Yeshua. Just because a person feels led to become a police officer, it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is doing the leading.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

 

[gadar perets]

There is always need for a Moses, Joshua, Caleb or Gideon.
The warfare may be spiritual mostly, but not always.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

I have no problem with believers fighting a war that YHWH or Yeshua commands us to fight. If Yeshua told me to join the Army, I must obey. I, however, cannot and should not choose to join the Army on my own volition.

 

[Shoshana bat Noach]

It's my understanding that the Orthodox position permits self defence up to the point of killing on Shabbat IF one's life is in immediate danger, for both Jew and gentile. I think that solves the answer well enough for me but of course there are diverse opinions in this thread in keeping with the diversity of MJ.

 

[gadar perets]

It's my understanding that the Orthodox position permits self defence up to the point of killing on Shabbat IF one's life is in immediate danger, for both Jew and gentile. I think that solves the answer well enough for me but of course there are diverse opinions in this thread in keeping with the diversity of MJ.

That may be fine for the Orthodox, but I believe Yeshua came to show us a better, higher way (love your enemies and full faith and trust in YHWH for defense).

 

[pat34lee]

I have no problem with believers fighting a war that YHWH or Yeshua commands us to fight. If Yeshua told me to join the Army, I must obey. I, however, cannot and should not choose to join the Army on my own volition.

No, you shouldn't, if you don't think God wants it.
Would you consider being drafted as a sign that
you were meant to go, or would you fight it?

 

[gadar perets]

No, you shouldn't, if you don't think God wants it.
Would you consider being drafted as a sign that
you were meant to go, or would you fight it?

No. I would consider the draft as a means to force me to disobey Yeshua. I would fight it.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I thought the "he" is the preceding sentence was the Son:

Hashem said be holy as I am holy. Yeshua imitates his father, and we are to imitate Yeshua, so that we might imitate the Father. He [Yeshua] is righteous in his conduct, so to imitate him [Yeshua] is to imitate righteousness. He [?] gave the sword of judgment to people, ...​

You obviously were not clear as "he" could refer to either the Father or the Son.


This is not YHWH giving "the sword of judgment to people" as individuals, IMHO, but most likely to judges or others in authority. We can't just go around killing anyone we think deserves to die without knowing the facts and without two or more witnesses that will testify.


Are you saying it is for our enemy's own good that we kill him?

Pssh, it doesn't even matter if I'm referring to the son or the father, so why even ask for the distinction?
Whenever the father speaks, he speaks through the son.

"Are you saying it is for our enemy's own good that we kill him?"

All of God's commands are for the greater good.

 

[gadar perets]

Pssh, it doesn't even matter if I'm referring to the son or the father, so why even ask for the distinction?
Whenever the father speaks, he speaks through the son.

It matters because there are many who claim the Father is the Son or claim that the "YHWH" of the OT was the Son.

"Are you saying it is for our enemy's own good that we kill him?"

All of God's commands are for the greater good.

His latest command through His Son was to "love" our enemy, not to kill him. Love is for the greater good.

 

[Hoshiyya]

It matters because there are many who claim the Father is the Son or claim that the "YHWH" of the OT was the Son.


His latest command through His Son was to "love" our enemy, not to kill him. Love is for the greater good.

"It matters because there are many who claim the Father is the Son or claim that the "YHWH" of the OT was the Son."

Actually scripture, targumim and tradition make clear that only the Father is God, but whenever he speaks, he does so through the Son, and the Son generally represents him, and scripture treats him and his Father purposefully as synonymous (even though they are not synonymous) in several important instances.

"His latest command through His Son was to "love" our enemy"

God's commands do not contradict any previous commands, otherwise you have a contradictory God.

Indeed, we were always supposed to love our enemies. Joshua was supposed to love those he killed. And I'm sure he did. God has killed many people, all of whom he loves. Ultimately, every single person that dies.

By the way, unlike you I don't need to put love in quotation marks.

 

[gadar perets]

"It matters because there are many who claim the Father is the Son or claim that the "YHWH" of the OT was the Son."

Actually scripture, targumim and tradition make clear that only the Father is God, but whenever he speaks, he does so through the Son, and the Son generally represents him, and scripture treats him and his Father purposefully as synonymous (even though they are not synonymous) in several important instances.

Can you cite some quotes from the targumim concerning only the Father being God? Or send them in a PM so as not to derail this thread?

"His latest command through His Son was to "love" our enemy"

God's commands do not contradict any previous commands, otherwise you have a contradictory God.

Indeed, we were always supposed to love our enemies. Joshua was supposed to love those he killed. And I'm sure he did. God has killed many people, all of whom he loves. Ultimately, every single person that dies.

By the way, unlike you I don't need to put love in quotation marks.

I put "love" in quotation marks as opposed to what was being said by the Jews:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
​

As for Joshua, he killed at the command of YHWH as we all should. My contention is that we should NOT kill without a command from Him, even if our government commands us to.

 

[Hoshiyya]

My contention is that we should NOT kill without a command from Him, even if our government commands us to.

I guess I agree with your ultimate conclusion here, inasmuch as scripture says anyone who doesn't want to go to war is allowed to abstain from going to war. This actually applied to anyone in Israel's army (Deut. 20:8).

I'm glad to hear you are interested in the targums, not many people are. I will look over the material and get back to you on this. : )

 

[DennisTate]

It's my understanding that the Orthodox position permits self defence up to the point of killing on Shabbat IF one's life is in immediate danger, for both Jew and gentile. I think that solves the answer well enough for me but of course there are diverse opinions in this thread in keeping with the diversity of MJ.

It is good to hear this.

I guess this means that the Orthodox Jews now are in agreement with the probable implications of that question by Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus.

 

[DennisTate]

And then there are the miracles for those who were unharmed facing the extreme situations. How can you not trust God to care for you if you are defending yourself?

Luke 4:
…28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.

This cliff was the Sabbath walk limit, aprox 2 miles away. God allowed this to go so far but no further.

You know the saying, when it is your time, it is your time.

If we get to the place where we have a level of faith comparable to
the Prophet Elijah at the time that two captains of fifty and their fifty were sent out
to bring him before the King of Israel.......
then there would be almost no situation that would scare us all that much.


2 Kings Chapter 1 (KJV)


2Kings 1:10

¶
"And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty."

I'm not at this level of faith yet.....
so if an emergency came up... whether it was on the Sabbath or not......
I am not entirely certain how I would handle it?

 

[DennisTate]

Do you believe God and Yeshua abide by that restriction, and do you believe their example is perfect ?

Good questions!

 

[visionary]

Then why these instructions if you are not to use it....??

Luke 22:36
Then he said unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it and likewise his provision bag; and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

 

[DennisTate]

Then why these instructions if you are not to use it....??

Luke 22:36
Then he said unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it and likewise his provision bag; and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Exactly!

Multiverse Theory...... if it does actually connect to the idea of many, many, many, many Ezekiel 37 style events, can eventually lead to a time line in which.......
his disciples do fight, and Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus takes on the role of
Moshiach ben Ephrayim / Yosef.

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.