PhillipLaSpino

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Someone wrote to me, " In Romans Chapter 9, we see that Paul is in sorrow for the Israelites because he knew that their rejection of Christ has left them in blindness and without a Deliverer. And because of the promises that God had made concerning Israel, it would appear to some that those promises have been abrogated in the light of this dire judgment upon them. Paul is addressing the obvious question, 'if both the Jew and the Gentile have salvation by faith alone, and the majority of Jews have come under God's judgment, how then can God be seen as the Savior of Israel?'

We begin this study in Romans chapter 9 where the Apostle Paul deals with this very question of 'The Promises made to Israel' and why Israel is still under judgment.

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the Word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."

In making this distinction, God is unambiguously illustrating that the identifying characteristic of the Israel of God 'not' in the flesh judaism, but in the Spirit, and is found in the sovereign electing work of God, not in genealogical descent. Thus we see that the covenantal promises of God were not to Israel after the flesh, but to the true spiritual Israel who are all those in Christ."

Phil responds. "Reader, I will take one issue at a time. Let’s talk about,

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the Word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."

This is an interesting combination of words. Let’s see if we can unfold this verse, which has ties to the promises of God made to Abraham; a promise having its fulfillment in Christ alone.

Do I have this straight? Your saying, when Paul uses the term Israel in Romans 9, he is inferring that these are NOT literal Jews, but represent the church, called by some, "spiritual Israel?"

The first problem I have with this reasoning is; you’re implying that from the hundreds of times the name "Israel" is mentioned in the Bible, EVERY time it refers to the 12 tribes, this verse is the exception?

If what you say is correct, what part of the Christian church represents Reuban, or Juda, or Aser, or Manasses, or any other tribe? I don't see how any one who speaks of a spiritual Israel (the church) can answer that question. Why, because there is no answer!

And if they did answer the question, based on what Biblical evidence would they have made this assessment, except by speculation? This form of thinking or theory goes against the whole teaching of who and what Israel represents throughout the Scriptures.

The problem: If someone can change the meaning here of an established term (Israel) then where does it stop? What would prevent others from doing the same concerning other doctrines of the Bible? In my estimation, this is a bad precedence to set.

Word changes not supported by a correct interpretation of the language can put a spin on every doctrine in the Scriptures. Again, the conclusive proof and evidence to the established fact that according to the Greek and Hebrew language when speaking of Israel and the Israelites, the language refers to literal people. As in,

The children of Israel, the house of Israel, the men of Israel, the descendant of Israel, and Jacob's posterity. There is no other definition attached to this particular word.

Phil LaSpino
 

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No one is changing the definition of Israel universally. There is still the ethnos Israel out there (many doubt how pure). Permission to take exception to the normal meaning is from Paul himself. Back in ch 2 he said what a Jew was. Here he says what Israel is, going forward. It is also "us," the "remnant", the "elect." This Israel will be saved, but it is not the ethnos Israel. He says in 11:1-6 that this was true in the past and in the present. Just some believe.

The question of Rom 9-11 is why don't more ethnos Jews believe. Well, they never have totally. It has been this way all through time and will be. But the "Israel" that will be saved will believe that the Redeemer came (past tense) to Zion and took away the debt of sin. The resolution is not in the future. He urges them to believe by saying they will accomplish a lot if they become saved, but that's not a prediction that they will.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Phil, sounds like your promoting dispensationalism?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One fold, One Body of Christ (not 2 separate folds, or bodies)
 
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PhillipLaSpino said in post 1:

Your saying, when Paul uses the term Israel in Romans 9, he is inferring that these are NOT literal Jews, but represent the church, called by some, "spiritual Israel?"

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27).

PhillipLaSpino said in post 1:

If what you say is correct, what part of the Christian church represents Reuban, or Juda, or Aser, or Manasses, or any other tribe? I don't see how any one who speaks of a spiritual Israel (the church) can answer that question.

All genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).
 
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