Rigidity versus Loosey Goosey Relativism

[Godlovesmetwo]

A person that is both rigid and sincere conceals a "double life", lacks the freedom of God's children and needs the Lord's help, Pope says in mornings homily.

Continued below.
http://m.ncregister.com/blog/edward...gidity-is-something-pathological#.WA5lM0b3bCQ

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

This thread was originally started by Michie in OBOB. I might copy and paste some of Davidnic's posts, if he doesn't mind.
I just think this topic goes to the heart of what we are about as Catholics.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

(by Davidnic)

He has spoke often of Rigidity. Some want to take it as meaning that any loyalty to the Church or saying there are non negotiables are wrong. But that is never what he is saying. The context is that when we lack mercy in favor of being unbending we are fundamentally opposing Christ. Just like when we choose to lack any boundary in an attempt to be kind.

Rigidity has always been something the Church has counseled against. Just like being permissive and dismissive of the Truth in an effort to be "understanding"

The Pope has often preached on the two extremes...Rigidity and Relativism.

And, if we are honest with ourselves, we see these two things far more often than we see authentic expression of the faith. These two things are parodies of the Truth but claim to be the Truth.

If you want to look at it with examples...look at the woman caught in Adultery. She never once asks for forgiveness or says: "I repent" But the Lord forgives and says "Go and Sin no more." But the law demanded death. And even someone today could say...she never expressed contrition in the moments that led to the forgiveness. That would be rigidity. And we see that in the world often...people do not take the small step to forgive as a method to get the person to repent. We know the woman did repent and change...but she did not do it after repenting and getting mercy. It was mercy then repentance. At times that must happen. At times that is the light into a heart to dispel darkness. I forgive you even though you do not forgive yourself or seek forgiveness.

Relativism is far more obvious and less subtle. We see that constantly. Examples are hardly necessary since it is so constant. Relativism is what will take what the Pope says here and try to spin it as: "See, you need to abandon the idea there is one Truth and realize all ways or at least many are just as good." That is also an error.

But the Pope is not saying anything new to our faith. But he is highlighting a very serious concern in the modern world. When you follow his daily homilies you see both rigidity and relativism come up over and over and over.

And when you interact with fellow Catholics it is hard to not see the polarization between these two extremes.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

When you follow his daily homilies you see both rigidity and relativism come up over and over and over.

I'd like to read some of his homilies on relativism.

 

[Davidnic]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...s-of-relativism-and-rigidity-pope-says-44628/

 

[Davidnic]

"But there is another form of poverty! It is the spiritual poverty of our time, which afflicts the so-called richer countries particularly seriously. It is what my much-loved predecessor, Benedict XVI, called the “tyranny of relativism”, which makes everyone his own criterion and endangers the coexistence of peoples. And that brings me to a second reason for my name. Francis of Assisi tells us we should work to build peace. But there is no true peace without truth! There cannot be true peace if everyone is his own criterion, if everyone can always claim exclusively his own rights, without at the same time caring for the good of others, of everyone, on the basis of the nature that unites every human being on this earth."

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...s-diplomats-moral-relativism-threatens-peace/

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=17404

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

“For many reasons they sought to distance Jesus’ authority from the people, even with slander as in this case...they continually put him to the test, put a trap in front of him, to see if he fell.”
Francis cautioned that such misinterpretations of the situation come from the evil spirit, who stealthily enters a person and “drop by drop” gives them instructions on how to “do things with relativism.”
I don't find His examples of relativism very clear to be honest.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

But there is no true peace without truth!

Thanks Davidnic for the links and so on.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I think this topic not only applies to Catholicism and religion. it also applies to personality types in general and modes of thought.
rigid, dogmatic, opinionated, black and white, all or nothing, I'm right you're wrong, confident, clear, logical, left-brain, analytical, scientific, mathematical, rational, leadership potential, decisive, closed to change, less likely to listen, only one answer, active, emotions less important

relativism, shades of grey, artistic, humanities, emotions have value, right-brain, creative, indecisive, open to change, more listen oriented than instructing, more than one answer, can be passive, vulnerable to confusion, psychoanalysis, Literature, writing, journaling,develops a hybrid view of the world, less confident?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

This dichotomy might explain why some catholic mavericks err on the side of relativism rather than rigidity. Examples: Rohr, Nouwen, Rolheiser.Or am I way off track?

 

[Davidnic]

I think there is a human trait that we sometimes fall toward one extreme if we reject the other. We all have a predisposed leaning toward one or the other and then justify excess with the good qualities of one end while railing against the bad of another.

So I think you are right that some err in one direction.

Both drive people away or mislead and both can lead to thinking of other end as "The Other" "Not One of Us" rather than two sets of errors that need to work together to find a workable relationship within the Truth.

 

[Martinius]

If we look at rigidity and relativism as extremes on two ends of a spectrum, then I dislike both. The Church, like all organizations, has rules, standards of behavior, etc. When they become rules for the sake of rules, because they have existed for millenia, because nothing can ever change, then we become bound up by those rules and are not allowed (or expected) to live the Gospel, just to follow rules. We can become a Church of "human precepts" instead of a people of God.

On the other end, there is a degree of relativism everywhere, including within the Church. If there was none, there would be no reason for ethics or conscience. We would be robots. On another thread people are discussing capital punishment, which is quite common around here. That is one issue where there are "shades of grey", even in the Church. I think the term "relativism" has been given a totally negative label, when in reality it is a natural part of the human existence.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

to Davidnic
Who can truly say that they are in the very centre? That they are right in the middle of the spectrum. As you say, we are predisposed to one side or the other.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I think the term "relativism" has been given a totally negative label, when in reality it is a natural part of the human existence.

Again I'd like to see more encyclicals where Pope Francis also rails against relativism.

 

[Davidnic]

Well he has called it (relativism) the devil anesthetizing people consciences. He called it spiritual Poverty in 2013 and the comment about the devil in 2015. He has taken the same line on the issues as Pope Benedict XVI. Even echoing and quoting the Tyranny of Relativism comments by B16. And he has linked it as the opposite side of the coin as rigidity and takes a hard line on both. I might be able to find and link to all texts from Pope Francis on the two subjects later this week after Halloween. He refers to them at times in daily homilies.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

https://millennialjournal.com/2015/08/27/pope-francis-and-the-dictatorship-of-relativism/

The culture of relativism is the same disorder which drives one person to take advantage of another, to treat others as mere objects, imposing forced labour on them or enslaving them to pay their debts. The same kind of thinking leads to the sexual exploitation of children and abandonment of the elderly who no longer serve our interests. It is also the mindset of those who say: Let us allow the invisible forces of the market to regulate the economy, and consider their impact on society and nature as collateral damage. In the absence of objective truths or sound principles other than the satisfaction of our own desires and immediate needs, what limits can be placed on human trafficking, organized crime, the drug trade, commerce in blood diamonds and the fur of endangered species? Is it not the same relativistic logic which justifies buying the organs of the poor for resale or use in experimentation, or eliminating children because they are not what their parents wanted? This same “use and throw away” logic generates so much waste, because of the disordered desire to consume more than what is really necessary. We should not think that political efforts or the force of law will be sufficient to prevent actions which affect the environment because, when the culture itself is corrupt and objective truth and universally valid principles are no longer upheld, then laws can only be seen as arbitrary impositions or obstacles to be avoided. (Laudato Si, 123)

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Of course, moral relativism is mainly what Pope Francis is worried about. Where we start the slippery slope of "yeah abortions's OK" or "yeah euthhanasia's OK". Anything becomes "OK, whatever" The antidote being to work and care for the poor.
My main concern was the relativism of Christian faiths. As Davidnic mentioned once, for Catholics, Catholicism is the fullness of truth compare to other denominations. Does Pope Francis specifically mention the danger of respecting and accepting other Christian denominations? I thought he had a very ecumenical approach.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Well he has called it (relativism) the devil anesthetizing people consciences.

If I am really honest, this happened to me in the past, when I not only strayed from the Church but compromised my morals. I think my problem was that my foundation wasn't strong enough, in the first place. It was only the fact that I had some foundation that I held on to a thread of decency.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

ISIS would be an example of the danger of rigidity and taking the letter of the law literally.
Fundamentalist groups thrive on finding fault with outside relativism. This would apply to religious cult groups and ideologies like communism and Nazism. Mao frowned on intellectuals and western influences for instance. These groups don't like people who try to think for themselves, who question authority. Scientology is another. I heard Scientology spend millions on attacking critics of their cult.
Critics of relativism might say that once you put yourself at the centre of the universe, you go downhill. We have to be very careful that using our conscience is not just doing as we please. That is the danger of relativism. Does our conscience really follow the truth?