Rider on the white horse rev 6

[John S]

Because the 1000 years are not literal as God uses perfect thousands to represent fullness or completeness.

The 144,000 are not literal as we see John turn to see a number no one could count...they are what the 144,000 represent, all believers.

Same thing when God says he blesses those to the 1000th generation...it means all generations, not just 1000.

Just as when God says He owns the cattle on 1000 hills...it means all hills, not just 1000.

The 1000 called the millennium represents an unknown number of years for which Christ reigns, and is another reson we cannot know when He returns in judgment.

1. The 144,000 ARE literal. These Elect are the one true Church of Jesus Christ - 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel except from Dan. They will be firstborn males, who never lie and who have never had sexual relations.
2. The number that no one could count has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 144,000. It has to do with the amount of martyrs that there will be - the ones who were killed because they remained loyal to Jesus Christ - and NOT those who were Raptured.

 

[ebedmelech]

1. The 144,000 ARE literal. These Elect are the one true Church of Jesus Christ - 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel except from Dan. They will be firstborn males, who never lie and who have never had sexual relations.
2. The number that no one could count has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 144,000. It has to do with the amount of martyrs that there will be - the ones who were killed because they remained loyal to Jesus Christ - and NOT those who were Raptured.

I know many view it that way...but i'm afraid not. After john HEARS the number 144,000 of each tribe, at Revelation 7:9 he says:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
John does this all throughout the vision, he hears and then turns to see the meaning of what he hears.

In this case he turns to see a great multitude which could not be counted. They are all of the redeemed of the Lord represented by the white robes. They are what 144,000 represents.

They are the fullness of the "Israel of God" which is all believers. This is why there are a perfect 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

This is why believers are spiritual Jews as Paul says in Romans 2:28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

This is further why the 144,000 are all believers regardless of race because as Paul says "If you be in Christ YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDANTS...which makes us spiritual Jews from God's viewpoint.

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 114:

Give me a break ..... you have added "in a way"

The Rider of the white horse tells you not to do this [Revelation 22:18-19]

Revelation 22:18 is a warning against adding ideas to the actual text of the book of Revelation, and then publishing the altered text as if those ideas were in the original text. Revelation 22:18 isn't a warning against simply saying something in a discussion such as "Velcro exists", or "Aliens could exist", ideas which aren't found in the book of Revelation (or anywhere else in the Bible), but are nonetheless true.

 

[Bible2]

Friar Tuck said in post 115:

Second red horse = And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.


Third black horse = and there shall be famines.


Fourth sickly pale horse = and pestilences.

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all 3 of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6). The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 116:

Try Ephesians 4:7-10:
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Note that this passsage doesn't contradict the fact that Elijah had ascended into heaven by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9).

Instead, Ephesians 4:7-10 points to the fact that all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24), for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

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ebedmelech said in post 117:

Revelation is about Christ coming in judgement on Jerusalem/Israel in 70 AD.

Actually, it isn't. And just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

ebedmelech said in post 117:

However because so many do not acknowledge the symbolism of Revelation...

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

ebedmelech said in post 117:

I also hold that we are in the millennial reign of Christ right now and have been every since Christ was resurrected.

Note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons for reading the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' future 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

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ebedmelech said in post 119:

Because the 1000 years are not literal as God uses perfect thousands to represent fullness or completeness.

Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 isn't literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

ebedmelech said in post 119:

The 144,000 are not literal as we see John turn to see a number no one could count...

Note that those are two different sets of people (one on earth and one in heaven). And the number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 is a literal number of people, which consists of literally 12 groups with literally 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8).

The 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as, for example, 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

 

[ebedmelech]

Note that this passsage doesn't contradict the fact that Elijah had ascended into heaven by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9).

Instead, Ephesians 4:7-10 points to the fact that all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24), for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

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Note that it says NO ONE has ASCENDED but HE WHO DESCENDED. Elijah ascended and so did Enoch...NEITHER OF THEM DESCENDED. So the point is Christ CAME FROM HEAVEN.

Actually, it isn't...

Bible2...don't be offended, but you're a "mish mash" of making points that are NOT a point. Revelation flows with Matthew 24....the problem in your theology is you take a passage that was written to believers in their existence and make them apply to this century WHEN THEY DO NOT!!! The message of John is to SEVEN EXiSTING churches. Can you show that those churches did not exist?

Revelation is almost entirely literal,...

Pretty much nonsense as Revelation 1 says John SIGNIFIED IT...meaning he communicated in symbols. It's up to the reader to accept or reject that. Obviously you won't listen to John tell you what he was doing. Do you know much of what is spoken in Revelation finds it's referent in OT prophecy? Obviously not.

Note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons...

Been through this dance with you. I say you're quite inaccurate and quite ill informed about what the Olivet discourse is about as well as Revelation...so save your eight reasons...they are eight excuses why you don't understand how to read the scriptures.

Furthermore, you seem to sit with access to a bunch of theology...and I don't knock that. However, regardless of the learning behind theology, it is another man's opinion. That being the case...due diligence is required on the part of the reader. I read commentaries, research word definitions, Greek/Hebrew definitions, and research just as you do. So when you log on and write your essays...don't think for a minute that that is convincing. When you get down to it it's the reader making him/herself accountable to God for what they believe.

Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 isn't literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

Heard this line from you too. Get this I view the 1000 years as symbolic of the ENTIRE time Christ has received ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth,until He returns in judgment, as Matthew 28:18 says...ALL MEANS ALL. Save yourself trying to convince me otherwise...you cannot!

Note that those are two different sets of people (one on earth and one in heaven). And the number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 is a literal number of people, which consists of literally 12 groups with literally 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8).

The 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as, for example, 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

Note that there are two different people in the resurrection...the living and the dead...those who have died in Christ are with Him in the spirit, They will receive their resurrected bodies when He comes.

You hold a view that is in error..."the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who remain..AND WE WILL FOREVER BE WITH THE LORD.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 126:

Note that it says NO ONE has ASCENDED but HE WHO DESCENDED. Elijah ascended and so did Enoch...

Right, so the point isn't that no one had ascended per se. It must mean that no one had ascended by their own power.

ebedmelech said in post 126:

Revelation flows with Matthew 24....the problem in your theology is you take a passage that was written to believers in their existence and make them apply to this century WHEN THEY DO NOT!!!

While Jesus was speaking with the apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in his mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). The events he foretold there didn't happen in the lifetime of the apostles, or any time since then, but will occur in our future.

ebedmelech said in post 126:

The message of John is to SEVEN EXiSTING churches.

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events that wouldn't occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

ebedmelech said in post 126:

Pretty much nonsense as Revelation 1 says John SIGNIFIED IT...meaning he communicated in symbols.

Revelation 1:1 doesn't mean that Jesus in Revelation chapters 6 to 22 is expressing the events of the future tribulation, and the subsequent 2nd coming, millennium and other events through only symbolic images, instead of indicating these events almost entirely literally. For just as the original Greek word (deiknuo, G1166) translated as "show" in Revelation 1:1 doesn't have to refer to something being shown through symbolic images, but can refer to something being shown literally (Matthew 8:4), so also the original Greek word (semaino, G4591) translated as "signified" in Revelation 1:1 doesn't have to refer to something being indicated through symbolic images, but can refer to something being indicated literally (Acts 25:27).

ebedmelech said in post 126:

Get this I view the 1000 years as symbolic of the ENTIRE time Christ has received ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth,until He returns in judgment, as Matthew 28:18 says...ALL MEANS ALL.

Spiritually. He isn't yet physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

 

[shturt678]

Rev.6:2, The Word of God rides forth into all the world conquering by its own power.

Just ol' old Jack's view

 

[Time Watcher]

"Pretty much nonsense as Revelation 1 says John SIGNIFIED IT...meaning he communicated in symbols"


Really?

I believe it is the Lord who signifies by His angel ..... not John

Nothing to do with "symbols" = "signify"

All of the symbols given in Revelation can be identified literally, either in the immediate context, or in other scriptures of the Bible .... all of them

It appears that you are trying to allegorize the literal by your statement .... this is the favorite game of the preterist when the literal does not fit .... I call this methodology metaphorical mush

Here is what Revelation tells about "signify" [authenticate] which was not done by John and does not have anything to do with Revelation's symbols


Revelation
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel

 

[interpreter]

I know many view it that way...but i'm afraid not. After john HEARS the number 144,000 of each tribe, at Revelation 7:9 he says:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
John does this all throughout the vision, he hears and then turns to see the meaning of what he hears.

In this case he turns to see a great multitude which could not be counted. They are all of the redeemed of the Lord represented by the white robes. They are what 144,000 represents.

They are the fullness of the "Israel of God" which is all believers. This is why there are a perfect 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

This is why believers are spiritual Jews as Paul says in Romans 2:28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

This is further why the 144,000 are all believers regardless of race because as Paul says "If you be in Christ YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDANTS...which makes us spiritual Jews from God's viewpoint.

You guys are a hoot. The 144,000 single male Jews who were sealed from the great tribulation are the 144,00 single male Jews that escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. That is how many male Jews of fighting age were available to the new Israeli army in 1948, most of them still single. 100,000 joined the army, and 44,000 were conscientious objectors, i.e., Orthodox Jews.

 

[ebedmelech]

You guys are a hoot. The 144,000 single male Jews who were sealed from the great tribulation are the 144,00 single male Jews that escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. That is how many male Jews of fighting age were available to the new Israeli army in 1948, most of them still single. 100,000 joined the army, and 44,000 were conscientious objectors, i.e., Orthodox Jews.

Pretty presumptuous. All the reading in the OT of Israel and Judah committing spiritual adultery and you can't make the connection that the virginity spoken of the 144,000 refers to remaining faithful to THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Have you read Isaiah 1 and 23, Ezekiel 6, 16, 23, and 43, Jeremiah 2 and 3, or Hosea 1 and 2?

You're the "hoot" because you don't correlate that Revelation speaks in symbols as well as metaphors.

So you keep your line of thinking or relate to the scriptures as they speak.

Lastly...1948 means NOTHING just because Israel became a nation. Peter and Paul work hard to tell you that the Israel God speaks of is spiritual...but because you follow the John Nelson Darby interpretation...you miss the boat.

Try going back and reading the OT prophecies and making the OBVIOUS spiritual correlation they speak in.

 

[shturt678]

"Pretty much nonsense as Revelation 1 says John SIGNIFIED IT...meaning he communicated in symbols"


Really?

I believe it is the Lord who signifies by His angel ..... not John

Nothing to do with "symbols" = "signify"

All of the symbols given in Revelation can be identified literally, either in the immediate context, or in other scriptures of the Bible .... all of them

It appears that you are trying to allegorize the literal by your statement .... this is the favorite game of the preterist when the literal does not fit .... I call this methodology metaphorical mush

Here is what Revelation tells about "signify" [authenticate] which was not done by John and does not have anything to do with Revelation's symbols


Revelation
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel

However appreciate you and your words, ie, Rev.1:1, "signified":

esemanen 3 pers. sg. aor. act Indic. from semainw (sema, a sign, mark): My end point:

Signified: Presents a blending together of earthly figures with the "cause" and "effect" including what is said about the figures with a hidden pointed spiritual comparative composite.

I don't like dancing on a line of offending a Living God, ie, stopped my lol ol' old Jack

Composite at Rev.6:2, power of the Word that conquers alone, ie, has to be rejected, and I understand why. There goes my lol again, ie, stop it Jack

 

[ebedmelech]

"Pretty much nonsense as Revelation 1 says John SIGNIFIED IT...meaning he communicated in symbols"


Really?

I believe it is the Lord who signifies by His angel ..... not John

Nothing to do with "symbols" = "signify"

All of the symbols given in Revelation can be identified literally, either in the immediate context, or in other scriptures of the Bible .... all of them

It appears that you are trying to allegorize the literal by your statement .... this is the favorite game of the preterist when the literal does not fit .... I call this methodology metaphorical mush

Here is what Revelation tells about "signify" [authenticate] which was not done by John and does not have anything to do with Revelation's symbols


Revelation
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel

Try again Time Watcher...now read this verse very carefully:
Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Are you getting that Time Watcher??? The angel signified it to John...so John was a HOLY SECRETARY...wrote what he was told...AS IT WAS TOLD TO HIM.

Wonder why you left that off???

Pretty lousy of you not to point out what signify means...why? Because you're being disingenuous! So I'll add it here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4591&t=NASB

"TO GIVE SIGN"...a sign is a symbol...didn't they teach you that at DTS???

Now...so you get the message...let's look at some signs for Jesus:

*The Rose of Sharon

*The Lion of the tribe of Judah

*The Lamb

*The Lily of the valley

...are you catching on?

 

[Time Watcher]

What a joke ebed

I don't need to try again

Your fabricated explanation takes the prize for the most likely to fail among others

Now you are making stuff up for sure

 

[ebedmelech]

What a joke ebed

I don't need to try again

Your fabricated explanation takes the prize for the most likely to fail among others

Now you are making stuff up for sure

I get it...you cannot deal with facts...

 

[Time Watcher]

You deal with facts don't you .... no you do not

To signify .... to authenticate, to make known [what must be "hereafter"].... not to make metaphorical mush

..... but to convey literal truth

All of Revelation's symbols can be understood literally

The Lord is not a God of confusion and He leaves nothing to conjecture

.... ask your "secretary" about this

 

[ebedmelech]

You deal with facts don't you .... no you do not

To signify .... to authenticate, to make known [what must be "hereafter"].... not to make metaphorical mush

..... but to convey literal truth

All of Revelation's symbols can be understood literally

The Lord is not a God of confusion and He leaves nothing to conjecture

.... ask your "secretary" about this

Keep trying...but it doesn't change the facts. Believe as you want Time Watcher. I will do the same...and THE DAY will reveal it.

So you can either let it drop...or take another look...it's on you...

 

[Time Watcher]

Let's let it drop .... the literal interpretations of the prophetic symbols are use to make things known to the reader .... not to confuse and to make arbitrary

The allegory of the preterist is an excuse in my opinion

So I do not believer that there is any need for further discussion on this subject

 

[shturt678]

Let's let it drop .... the literal interpretations of the prophetic symbols are use to make things known to the reader .... not to confuse and to make arbitrary

The allegory of the preterist is an excuse in my opinion

So I do not believer that there is any need for further discussion on this subject

Come on back after a literal break, ie, appreciate you and your words.

Just ol' old Jack btw Revelation long ago was viewed allegorically, ie, last centuries, no allegory.

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 128:

Rev.6:2, The Word of God rides forth into all the world conquering by its own power.

That could be right, in that the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).