Rich Warren & Joel Osteen preach the Daniel Diet!

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Lysimachus

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Why do you judge those that eat pork? There are world populations that eat bugs as a staple to their diet. I consider that gross but I don't judge them. If you don't want to eat pork then that is your choice but for the rest of us that like pork that is our choice. There is no teaching in scripture preventing Christians from eating pork.

I disagree. The scriptures are as clear as a whistle that eating Pork is prohibited for all mankind and all time.

I consider these only the basics in the Christian walk. The A, B, Cs. Kind of like the Ten Commandments (elementary school). After adhering to these basic things, we must go unto perfection--such as pressing together, working on our defects of character, unifying, taking correction, giving correction, giving and receiving the straight testimony--to purge out the impurities, as gold tried in the fire.
 
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GQ Chris

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I disagree. The scriptures are as clear as a whistle that eating Pork is prohibited for all mankind and all time.

And just think, these are only the basics in the Christian walk. After adhering these basic things, we must go unto perfection.


Remember to keep up with the rest of the hundreds of precepts of the Law.

But you can't, because you already failed.
 
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Lysimachus

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Remember to keep up with the rest of the hundreds of precepts of the Law.

But you can't, because you already failed.

You're looking at it with a totally wrong perspective, that's your problem.

That's not how this program works.
 
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Strong in Him

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I disagree. The scriptures are as clear as a whistle that eating Pork is prohibited for all mankind and all time.

So you'll have no trouble finding me a NT verse where Jesus tells his Gentile followers and future disciples that this is what they/we HAVE to do.

I consider these only the basics in the Christian walk. The A, B, Cs. Kind of like the Ten Commandments (elementary school). After adhering to these basic things, we must go unto perfection--

The 10 commandments, which ARE for all time and were summarised and affirmed by Jesus, make no mention of not eating pork.
Funny that.

After adhering to these basic things, we must go unto perfection--such as pressing together, working on our defects of character, unifying, taking correction, giving correction, giving and receiving the straight testimony--to purge out the impurities, as gold tried in the fire.

Diet has nothing to do with moral character and plays no part whatsoever in salvation.

If you believe it is a sin to eat pork then for you it is and you shouldn't do it. I don't believe it is. Paul said that we must do nothing to cause our fellow Christians to stumble, so I wouldn't eat pork in your presence. Just as, if you saw me eating a pork chop I wouldn't expect you to protest or criticise me.

But no SDA has yet produced a verse/passage where Jesus says that he expects all his followers to obey the JEWISH food laws.
 
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Lysimachus

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My bad. What "perspective" do I need to look at it from?

The perspective that God expects us to do our best, despite our weaknesses.

That's why in we are told in Hebrews 10:26 - "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

There is a difference between "willful" transgression and sins we commit due to our weaknesses and infirmities. God's Grace can only cover you when He sees you are making use of the Grace He has supplied you, because God's grace gives you strength and power to sin--which is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

When we willfully violate a principle that we know is wrong, that is what will keep us out of heaven. But, if we stumble and fall due to human weakness, yet we are still striving to do what is right, God will understand.

Otherwise, James would not state the following:

James:

2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So SPEAK, and SO DO, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.​

If James had meant that since we are guilty of all when we break one and that means we shouldn't even try to keep them, then why would James go on to say so "SPEAK YE", and "SO DO"?

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

When we willfully go out of our way to avoid doing what we know to be right, it becomes sin to us.

But, if we perform sins that we do not know are wrong, we cannot be held accountable. We are held accountable according to the light received, and according to the warnings spurned and rejected.

We may make mistakes, but Christ's righteousness covers our weaknesses and infirmities.

Christ's righteousness DOES NOT, however, cover willful transgression, as clearly revealed to us Hebrews 10:26.
 
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Lysimachus

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^ You still have not shown the prohibition for Christians eating of pork.

A general rule:

If it has already been soundly established in the Old Testament, it remains valid in the New unless clearly expressed as rescinded.

Isaiah 66
(15) For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. (16) For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
(17) They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.​

Since this passage is pointing forward to the Second Coming, it applies therefore to the New Covenant. And it also applies to people who are still alive when Jesus comes, because it says they will be consumed by the brightness of His coming.

When I show this to other evangelical Christians, their jaw just drops, and they don't know what to say. They say "wow, that is so clear!"

It also says "all flesh", not just Jews.
 
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Lysimachus

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So you'll have no trouble finding me a NT verse where Jesus tells his Gentile followers and future disciples that this is what they/we HAVE to do.

Since when is the NT required to repeat every single thing that is still obligatory from the OT in the NT?

Jesus nor the Disciples said anything about beastality either.

The 10 commandments, which ARE for all time and were summarised and affirmed by Jesus, make no mention of not eating pork.
Funny that.

It never said anything about beastality or making restitution for a wrong either. It mentions nothing about a lot of things. The Ten Commandments are the "basic" foundation. There is a law that is tied to not eating pork.

It says "thou shalt not murder". All the other laws that harm your body fall under this heading. When you willfully put foods into our mouth that you know are harmful to your health, based on the science, you are breaking this commandment by killing yourself and abusing your body. The grand Ten are the foundation, all the others are extensions and elaborations...and Christ elaborated on these Ten more than anyone. They are BROAD in their meaning. For example, when God says "thou shalt not steal", it also means to not steal God's time. When we waste time, we are stealing God's time. When we are addicted to something, we are putting that above God.

The Ten mentions nothing about fornication either. But fornication falls under the heading of adultery. Just like eating toxic and unclean foods falls under the heading of not killing or murdering.

Diet has nothing to do with moral character and plays no part whatsoever in salvation.

I believe this to be a grand deception. If we love God, our works will follow, and we will treat our bodies as Temples of the Holy Ghost. If we willfully put toxic waste into our bodies, we are violating James 4:17 that says "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin." (James 4:18).

So many Christians are going to be lost because they continued to think that what they do has no part in their salvation. How we treat our bodies reflects on how well we respect God's creation. We will be held accountable for mistreating these Temples. In a Temple, nothing that is impure or unclean should enter it. It is to be kept clean and pure.

If you believe it is a sin to eat pork then for you it is and you shouldn't do it. I don't believe it is. Paul said that we must do nothing to cause our fellow Christians to stumble, so I wouldn't eat pork in your presence. Just as, if you saw me eating a pork chop I wouldn't expect you to protest or criticise me.

But no SDA has yet produced a verse/passage where Jesus says that he expects all his followers to obey the JEWISH food laws.

It's hard to even imagine that we are having this conversation. I mean, I don't just refrain from pork and unclean meats, I do not eat any meat at all. I mean, I do not just refrain from eating meat at all, I am a vegan vegetarian and have not touched dairy products for 21 years.

Why can't we get past the basic elementary so we can advance to the next?

Pork is a sin. It is detestable. It is an abomination.

ANYTHING abominable in the OT transfers into the NT.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that eating Pork is almost on the same top-tier level of a sin as homosexual practices.

I could break down the hermeneutical rules for you if you want for me to prove this. The hermeneutical rules employed for Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 by traditional Evangelical Christians are no different than the rules employed for unclean meats. Both rest on the same grounds for being carried over into the New Covenant.

I just wish you guys could see this.

So when Christians quote Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they are willing to go so far and show how these are applicable, but suddenly when it comes to the dietary laws, they do not apply.
 
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Hentenza

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I disagree. The scriptures are as clear as a whistle that eating Pork is prohibited for all mankind and all time.

And I disagree with you. The scriptures are as clear as whistle that the Jewish dietary laws are NOT commanded of the Christian. There is NO teaching in scripture that requires the Christian to follow ANY part of the Jewish law.

I consider these only the basics in the Christian walk. The A, B, Cs. Kind of like the Ten Commandments (elementary school). After adhering to these basic things, we must go unto perfection--such as pressing together, working on our defects of character, unifying, taking correction, giving correction, giving and receiving the straight testimony--to purge out the impurities, as gold tried in the fire.

You preach a works salvation by redefining Christian terms to suit your brand of theology. I will allow the Holy Spirit to guide me rather that fall into the bondage of the law.
 
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Lysimachus

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And I disagree with you. The scriptures are as clear as whistle that the Jewish dietary laws are NOT commanded of the Christian. There is NO teaching in scripture that requires the Christian to follow ANY part of the Jewish law.

When you really break what you're doing down to brass tax, you conveniently like to select which laws you wish to consider "Jewish" and which ones are not.
 
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cesty

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1 Timothy 1:1-5
“(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”​
The context of the “latter times” is referring to some time after Paul. Compare this with Acts 20:28-30 which states: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

After Paul died, Paganism crept into the Church (this is well established history—from all the founding fathers). All the early Church fathers that were still living after Paul’s death wrote and taught that the “man of sin”, or “antichrist power” would arise immediately after the fall of the Roman Empire (which they learned from Paul himself). The Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. What happened during this time? The Catholic Church, the Little Horn, was growing into full prominence, and it was a religion that was “mixed” with Christianity and Paganism. Constantine was the first one to mix his empire into the two, which eventually converted slowly into Catholicism.
“(2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; (3) FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to ABSTAIN FROM MEATS [foods], which God hath CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING of them which believe and know the truth.”​
Why am I dealing with verse 2 and 3? Because they lay down the context for verses 4 and 5. This prophecy was fulfilled, primarily in the introduction of forbidding priests and nuns in the Catholic Church to marry! This is unbiblical, for priests in Old Testament times married! Paul is speaking in context of an evil power that would arise which would forbid marrying and commanding to “abstain from meats”. To be clear, the Greek word for “meats” here is “Broma”, which just means “foods” according to Strongs. Many other Bible translations, such as the NASB or NIV translate it as “foods”. You see, the word “meat” has been known in old English to be translated as just that… “food”. Example: “You still have some meat left on that peach”. So let’s reword the verse in its correct context: “commanding to abstain from foods WHICH God has created to be received with thanksgiving”. Is God talking about every food here? Or only those foods which He made “to be received with thanksgiving”? You catch the difference there in how it should be properly translated?

What Paul is really talking about here is the practice of “ASCETISM”. “Asscetii…what?” you’re probably thinking. Yes, asceticism was a practice in which during certain ceremonies and feasts, all sorts of rules and regulations were being made that forbade people to eat certain foods…even foods that are good for you! All we have to do is read some famous old commentaries on what Paul was referring to:

People’s New Testament (Commentary):
"4:3 Forbidding to marry. Not long after Paul's time the superior holiness of the unmarried life began to be preached in the church, and this resulted at last in MONASTICISM and a CELIBATE CLERGY. COMMANDING to ABSTAIN from meats. The ascetic practices which began to grow up in the church a little later extended to foods. TO EAT THE LEAST PALATABLE FOOD WHICH WOULD SUSTAIN LIFE WAS COUNTED WITH VIRTUE. These ascetics generally forbade animal food, and SOME LIVED ONLY ON BREAD AND WATER. These practices are still found among certain orders of the Latin and Eastern churches."​
Continuing in 1 Timothy 1:
“(4) For every creature OF GOD is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:”​
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
"Verses 4 and 5. Translate as Greek, "Because" (expressing a reason resting on an objective fact; or, as here, a Scripture quotation)-"For" (a reason resting on something subjective in the writer's mind). every creature . good-(Ge 1:31; Ro 14:14, 20). A refutation by anticipation of the Gnostic opposition to creation: the seeds of which were now lurking latently in the Church. Judaism (Ac 10:11-16; 1Co 10:25, 26) was the starting-point of the error as to meats: Oriental Gnosis added new elements. The old Gnostic heresy is now almost extinct; BUT ITS REMAINS IN THE CELIBACY OF ROME'S PRIESTHOOD, AND ITS FASTS FROM ANIMAL MEATS, enjoined under the penalty of mortal sin, remain if with thanksgiving-Meats, though pure in themselves, become impure by being received with an unthankful mind (Ro 14:6; Tit 1:15)"​
This Scripture passage (verse 3) refers to meats “which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving” by His people. These meats are clean meats listed in Leviticus chapter 11 and Deuteronomy chapter 14. Verse 4 makes it clear that all creatures OF GOD are good and not to be refused, provided they are among those created to be “received with thanksgiving” (the clean animals). Only those that are "OF GOD". Verse 5 tells us why these animals (or foods) are acceptable: they are “sanctified” by God’s Word, which says they are clean, and by a “prayer” of blessing, which is offered before the meal. Please note, however, that God will destroy people who try to “sanctify themselves” while eating unclean foods (Isaiah 66:17).

You see, scriptures cannot contradict themselves. It is impossible, unless we want to purposely find occasion to doubt the Bible. So therefore, with the rule of “here a little”, and “there a little”, we are able to put together the full context and weight of inspiration, without taking certain passages and coming to false conclusions. It is impossible that Paul is giving way for any human being to eat any kind of meat they want, and I will prove it. Notice what the Lord says He will do to those who eat swine’s flesh:
“See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the LORD. “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the LORD.” (Isaiah 66:15-17).​
Therefore, “every creature of God that is good for eating” cannot be including swine, or any abominable or unclean animal. There is absolutely no way! They are not considered "FOOD".

Some may argue that this is only referring to the Old Covenant. But think again. The verse is saying that God will destroy people who eat those abominable foods at the Second Coming! It also does not say he will judge just the Jews. It says “all flesh”. Has Jesus come yet? I’m afraid not. The Second Coming is still FUTURE! This places the prophecy in the New Covenant time frame.

The prophet Isaiah here is speaking of a future prediction! Obviously Paul is not contradicting these scriptures, so therefore, it would be irresponsible to assume that Paul is speaking in the context of unclean animals which were forbidden before the Old Covenant was even in place! “Then the Lord said to Noah, … take with you seven each of every clean animal…; two each of animals that are unclean’” (Gen. 7:1,2). The Bible has ample evidence that there were clean and unclean animals from the very dawn of Creation. Noah lived long before any Jews existed, but he knew of the clean and unclean animals, because he took into the ark the clean ones by “sevens” and the unclean by “twos.” Revelation 18:2 refers to some birds as being unclean just before the second coming of Christ. The death of Christ had no altering effect whatever on these health laws, since the Bible says that all who break them will be destroyed when Jesus returns (Isaiah 66:15-17). The Jew’s stomach and digestive systems in no way differs from that of a Gentile. These health laws are for all people for all time.

Those who think that it is okay to eat pork and any abominable creature are in essence "sanctifying themselves", and are refusing the Lord to sanctify them.

It is a blessing to have you here, brother. It's good to see solid exegesis!

People, don't let the fact that this person is an SDA keep you from learning from him. He knows his stuff, and I ask that you would show respect for him, and not allow a bias against the Seventh-day Adventist church to keep you from hearing what he has to say. He is obviously gifted when it comes to interpreting Scripture.
 
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Lysimachus

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It is a blessing to have you here, brother. It's good to see solid exegesis!

People, don't let the fact that this person is an SDA keep you from learning from him. He knows his stuff, and I ask that you would show respect for him, and not allow a bias against the Seventh-day Adventist church to keep you from hearing what he has to say. He is obviously gifted when it comes to interpreting Scripture.

I appreciate your kind and encouraging words Cesty. I give glory only to God. It has been my desire to only share with others what God has impressed me to apply myself in learning.

Time is so short, and we must study to show ourselves approved. Jesus is coming soon.
 
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Hentenza

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Alright, first off, the only proper way you can understand what Romans 14 is talking about is to compare it with 1 Corinthians 8. The "clean" and "unclean" in Romans 14 has nothing to do with the "clean" and "unclean" of the Old Testament. What it is talking about is ceremonial cleanliness or uncleanliness, not the laws of Leviticus. You see, the Jews would take liberties to eat meats that were sacrificed to idols, and would buy them in the supermarket. New Gentile converts, who had just given up their idols, where abhorred and shocked that these "stronger brothers" would dare to eat meat that had been offered to an idol. It became a "stumblingblock" to them, and it bothered them dearly.

In other words, the Gentile believed that if the meat was offered to an idol, that meat had been "spiritually defiled" (unclean). Therefore, a curse was upon it. Paul's emphasis is that pagan idols cannot defile a piece of meat, for all food is clean. All that God has made as food is clean.

Now notice 1 Cor. 8:
8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.​
The issue in Romans 14 had to do with ceremonial practices concerning festival holidays of the Jews and Gentiles.

When you have some time, here is an outstanding article to read. It will answer all your questions in a simple, concise, and Biblical manner. Take out time to read it, and then pray, and continue to study. Remain open, stay faithful, search the scriptures with a prayerful heart, and the Holy Spirit will be sure to guide you into ALL truth and understanding (John 16:13).

Here it is:

Hogs-and-Other-Hazards

And after you're done with that article, the following articles, using the Bible and New Testament, will deal with various questions:

Part 1: Clean Animals:
Clean Animals and Clean Birds | Hooved Animals, Fowl, Marine Animals, Insects

Part 2: Unclean Animals:
Unclean Animals and Unclean Birds | Carnivorous Birds, Swine, Rabbit, Mammals, Reptiles, Fish

Part 3: Do The Old Testament Dietary Laws Still Apply?:
Old Testament Dietary Laws | Original Bible Diet

Part 4: Clean and Unclean In The New Testament:
New Testament Dietary Laws | Clean Animals vs. Unclean Animals

Read everything above in order, top to bottom, to get the full picture, using all of scriptures, here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept. (Isa 28:9,10).

Now continuing, let's look at 1 Corinthians 1 10:

1 Cor 10:
10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
10:20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's [wealth].
10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, [that] eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
10:26 For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.​
As clearly seen here, the issue is pertaining to meats offered to idols.

Paul is saying... if it bothers your conscience, when you go to the market and buy meat, do not ask any questions... do not ask if it was meat that had been offered to idols. Just buy it without asking questions for your conscience sake. It bothered the Gentiles who had given up their idols.

The issue had to do with "spiritual defilement" in the consciences of those weaker gentiles who had just given up their idols. By eating meats that had been sacrificed to idols, it affected him, as he as not yet strong in this area. It brought the temptation back to him to worship the idol.

So the context of "clean" and "unclean" in these passages is not talking about the "clean" and "unclean" in Leviticus.

A Pig was unclean whether it had been offered to an idol or not. The issue of uncleanliness in these passages above are in reference exclusively that had been offered to idols. Many of these meats were sold in the market-place, and Paul is trying to let them know that if it bothers your conscience whether the meat was offered to an idol or not, do not even ask questions, and that way, when you eat the meat, you won't know.

The Levitical dietary laws most certainly are not the issues in question in neither Romans 14 or 1 Corinthians 8 and 9.

I don't care how many times one may pray over their Pork, it ain't gonna take away the trichinosis.

God expects us to use our cabesas. Otherwise, we are acting on presumption.

Those who act on presumption and blind faith will have to give an account to how they willfully went out of their way to mistreat their bodies.

Amazing Discoveries ministry merely panhandles for the SDA and is in no way or form representative of mainstream Christianity. They are welcome to their opinions, which is what they are, but most of us here do not buy into such a gross misinterpretation of scripture.
 
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Hentenza

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When you really break what you're doing down to brass tax, you conveniently like to select which laws you wish to consider "Jewish" and which ones are not.

I don't follow ANY of the Jewish laws. None. They are NOT required of the Christian. We have a much higher "law". I don't have to "brake them down" since they are explicitly cited throughout the Old Testament.

Tell me Lysimachus, is following the Jewish laws such as the keeping of the Jewish sabbath and the dietary laws required for salvation?
 
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cesty

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Amazing Discoveries ministry merely panhandles for the SDA and is in no way or form representative of mainstream Christianity. They are welcome to their opinions, which is what they are, but most of us here do not buy into such a gross misinterpretation of scripture.
That's not a very kind thing to say. While I may not agree with everything Walter Veith says, most of what he teaches is spot on. I believe that man is doing a great service for God, and he deserves respect for it.
 
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Hentenza

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That's not a very kind thing to say. While I may not agree with everything Walter Veith says, most of what he teaches is spot on. I believe that man is doing a great service for God, and he deserves respect for it.

His teachings are far from being spot on. I urge you compare them with scripture.
 
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cesty

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Tell me Lysimachus, is following the Jewish laws such as the keeping of the Jewish sabbath and the dietary laws required for salvation?

I think a better way to put it would be to say, "Is it necessary to obey the voice of God in order to be saved?" One only needs to read Hebrews 4 to know the answer to that.
 
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