REWORDED: Can SALVATION be gained without repentance?

[From Glory to Glory]

Hi again!

I realize that I did not make my question in my other thread very clear. I was not speaking of people, once they are saved, who have not repented of certain sins and whether or not they would receive ongoing forgiveness. Nor was I speaking of whether or not we should forgive people who have not repented. I was speaking of people who had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord and received Him as Savior. Specifically, the people in Luke 23:34 whom Jesus asks the Father to forgive. Were those people, who killed Jesus, and had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, saved, based on Jesus, in His mercy, crying out for forgiveness for them? And if so, then how does this coincide with our need for a personal confessing of Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to receive remission of our sins? If Jesus could wash away their sins and save them, even though they had not been born again through accepting Him as Savior and being born again, then how is that possible?

Hope that helps!

Pam

 

[imperfectchristian]

Hi again!

I realize that I did not make my question in my other thread very clear. I was not speaking of people, once they are saved, who have not repented of certain sins and whether or not they would receive ongoing forgiveness. Nor was I speaking of whether or not we should forgive people who have not repented. I was speaking of people who had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord and received Him as Savior. Specifically, the people in Luke 23:34 whom Jesus asks the Father to forgive. Were those people, who killed Jesus, and had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, saved, based on Jesus, in His mercy, crying out for forgiveness for them? And if so, then how does this coincide with our need for a personal confessing of Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to receive remission of our sins? If Jesus could wash away their sins and save them, even though they had not been born again through accepting Him as Savior and being born again, then how is that possible?

Hope that helps!

Pam

Only God truly knows the answer to this question.

 

[Elijah2]

Hi again!

I realize that I did not make my question in my other thread very clear. I was not speaking of people, once they are saved, who have not repented of certain sins and whether or not they would receive ongoing forgiveness. Nor was I speaking of whether or not we should forgive people who have not repented. I was speaking of people who had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord and received Him as Savior. Specifically, the people in Luke 23:34 whom Jesus asks the Father to forgive. Were those people, who killed Jesus, and had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, saved, based on Jesus, in His mercy, crying out for forgiveness for them? And if so, then how does this coincide with our need for a personal confessing of Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to receive remission of our sins? If Jesus could wash away their sins and save them, even though they had not been born again through accepting Him as Savior and being born again, then how is that possible?

Hope that helps!

Pam

Hi Pam,

When our Lord Jesus Christ says: "I forgive you and remember no more", we say the same things about our brothers and sisters when they trespass against us.

So, when you are being harassed and tormented by unbelievers, and it really is like being killed by spiritual attacks, you can forgive them, and you can also say to our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them for they know not what they do. The same as our Lord Jesus Christ did.

I guess there would be many people out there who have probably hurt, offended, and abused you, who haven't asked for forgiveness from you for those thins?

I think you are reading far too much into this.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hi again!

I realize that I did not make my question in my other thread very clear. I was not speaking of people, once they are saved, who have not repented of certain sins and whether or not they would receive ongoing forgiveness. Nor was I speaking of whether or not we should forgive people who have not repented. I was speaking of people who had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord and received Him as Savior. Specifically, the people in Luke 23:34 whom Jesus asks the Father to forgive. Were those people, who killed Jesus, and had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, saved, based on Jesus, in His mercy, crying out for forgiveness for them? And if so, then how does this coincide with our need for a personal confessing of Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to receive remission of our sins? If Jesus could wash away their sins and save them, even though they had not been born again through accepting Him as Savior and being born again, then how is that possible?

Hope that helps!

Pam

The answer to your question is no, salvation can not be gained without repentence. At some point, the person has to turn away or change the way they think or believe.

As for Luke 23:34, Jesus wasn't praying for them to receive salvation. Salvation and forgiveness do not mean the samething. Forgiveness means to pardon, or as Jesus said, not hold those sins against them. Salvation however is a much busier word that includes forgiveness but doesn't end there.

Jesus is basically praying that the Father does not hold this particular sin against them. "Father, forgive them for what they are doing" is not a prayer for salvation but asking that that particular sin not be included on their account. All their other sins are still on their account but not that particular one. Remember, Jesus gave his life willingly, they did not kill or murder him. That's why Jesus is praying this prayer, the people didn't have much to do with it.

John 15:13, Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus layed down his life, they did not take it from him. Therefore this sin should not be placed on their account, they should be forgiven for what they are doing, they are not to blame.

 

[JimB]

One cannot be saved until they repent. Repentance means turning from something to something else. Turning from sin to Christ and his salvation from sin and judgment is repentance.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

 

[imperfectchristian]

One cannot be saved until they repent. Repentance means turning from something to something else. Turning from sin to Christ and his salvation from sin and judgment is repentance.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

Yes...I think we we would all agree with this general use of the word. However, when it comes to a sin that a Christian commits, does a Christian lose their salvation if they do not turn from their sin?

My problem with the whole philosophy is that it is flawed in that it focuses our attention on ourselves and our ability to repent from sinful behaviour, which ultimately equivalates to trying to live by the law. Scripture however says that through faith and following the lead of the Spirit, we put to death the deeds of of the flesh.

The more Christians try to keep the law...the more in trouble they will be.

The answer instead is to embrace to leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[JimB]

I used to believe (at least more strongly than I do now) that a Christian can, as we used to say, “sin away his day of grace.” I am more ambivalent about that today. I do know that John said, “No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God” (1 John 3.9 AMP), which gives us cause sometimes to wonder if some people are truly saved.

But what I have come to believe that, within certain bounds (like the scripture above), there is no sin that can nullify a person’s salvation. However, a believer’s freewill remains intact even after they are saved. If a Christian chooses, he can denounce Christ, opt out of the faith, become reprobate.

Anyhow, that is where I am now on this issue.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

 

[Tamara224]

No, of course not.

To be saved means to be made whole. It is much more than "just" having the sins we had committed washed away (and needing re-washing every time we stumble lest we lose our "saved" status.)

Jesus died to atone for our sins so that the relationship between us and God that was severed when Adam sinned can be "made whole" again.

It's ALL ABOUT RELATIONSHIP. Our salvation means that the relationship can be restored - it's about being reconciled.

The best example we can understand is really one of a husband and wife. The wife cheated on her husband and left him to live a life of independence. The husband, though, never stopped loving his wife - he longs for her to return to him. So the husband pays the travel expenses for the wife to come back home - all she has to do is get on the plane and come back. It's up to her, then, to decide that she doesn't want to be separated from her husband anymore.

If the wife decides that she prefers living away from her husband, he is not going to try to force her back - because he knows that he can't make her love him and that is what he desires. If he forced her back, the relationship would not be mutual, the wife could take no real pleasure in it. It has to be her choice to come back.

It's the same with us and God. We've cheated on Him and lived in sin, each person wanting to be on their own and independent. God paid the way for us to come back - He sent His Son to atone for our sins and make us whole. It is reconciliation that He longs for, though. He wants a real relationship with each of us. And because He wants us to love Him, He leaves the decision to return up to us.

That's why we can't be "made whole" until we repent. We have to turn from our life of "independence" and return to God.

 

[jeolmstead]

No, of course not.

To be saved means to be made whole. It is much more than "just" having the sins we had committed washed away (and needing re-washing every time we stumble lest we lose our "saved" status.)

Jesus died to atone for our sins so that the relationship between us and God that was severed when Adam sinned can be "made whole" again.

It's ALL ABOUT RELATIONSHIP. Our salvation means that the relationship can be restored - it's about being reconciled.

The best example we can understand is really one of a husband and wife. The wife cheated on her husband and left him to live a life of independence. The husband, though, never stopped loving his wife - he longs for her to return to him. So the husband pays the travel expenses for the wife to come back home - all she has to do is get on the plane and come back. It's up to her, then, to decide that she doesn't want to be separated from her husband anymore.

If the wife decides that she prefers living away from her husband, he is not going to try to force her back - because he knows that he can't make her love him and that is what he desires. If he forced her back, the relationship would not be mutual, the wife could take no real pleasure in it. It has to be her choice to come back.

It's the same with us and God. We've cheated on Him and lived in sin, each person wanting to be on their own and independent. God paid the way for us to come back - He sent His Son to atone for our sins and make us whole. It is reconciliation that He longs for, though. He wants a real relationship with each of us. And because He wants us to love Him, He leaves the decision to return up to us.

That's why we can't be "made whole" until we repent. We have to turn from our life of "independence" and return to God.

QFT

John O.

 

[jeolmstead]

Repentance is not about sin. A man can stop “sinful” behavior and yet have no relationship with God. He can trade his dead worldly life for an equally dead religious one.

So, to say one must stop sinning to receive salvation is not exactly correct. As T said, Repentance is about turning from our own way and submitting to God’s way.

Jesus warned that in the judgment many would extol all that they had done in the name of Jesus, and Jesus will say to them “Depart from me, I never knew you”

It is in the “knowing” where we find life and the power to overcome.


John O.

 

[From Glory to Glory]

Hi Pam,

When our Lord Jesus Christ says: "I forgive you and remember no more", we say the same things about our brothers and sisters when they trespass against us.

So, when you are being harassed and tormented by unbelievers, and it really is like being killed by spiritual attacks, you can forgive them, and you can also say to our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them for they know not what they do. The same as our Lord Jesus Christ did.

I guess there would be many people out there who have probably hurt, offended, and abused you, who haven't asked for forgiveness from you for those thins?

I think you are reading far too much into this.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to, but I guess I am wondering if when Jesus asked for forgiveness for his murderers, did that make them saved, or did they still have to confess Him as Lord?

 

[From Glory to Glory]

The answer to your question is no, salvation can not be gained without repentence. At some point, the person has to turn away or change the way they think or believe.

As for Luke 23:34, Jesus wasn't praying for them to receive salvation. Salvation and forgiveness do not mean the samething. Forgiveness means to pardon, or as Jesus said, not hold those sins against them. Salvation however is a much busier word that includes forgiveness but doesn't end there.

Jesus is basically praying that the Father does not hold this particular sin against them. "Father, forgive them for what they are doing" is not a prayer for salvation but asking that that particular sin not be included on their account. All their other sins are still on their account but not that particular one. Remember, Jesus gave his life willingly, they did not kill or murder him. That's why Jesus is praying this prayer, the people didn't have much to do with it.

John 15:13, Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus layed down his life, they did not take it from him. Therefore this sin should not be placed on their account, they should be forgiven for what they are doing, they are not to blame.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! This totally clears this up for me! Now I feel so silly for asking! This is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you!!

 

[nephilimiyr]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! This totally clears this up for me! Now I feel so silly for asking! This is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you!!

You're welcome, and please don't feel silly, alot of Jews don't understand this either, but can you blame them? Throughout the last 2000 years christians, not all, put the whole blame on them for killing Jesus? Jesus is saying no, I lay down my life, no one takes it from me, and so with this He asks the Father not to charge this sin to them.

 

[nephilimiyr]

But what I have come to believe that, within certain bounds (like the scripture above), there is no sin that can nullify a person’s salvation. However, a believer’s freewill remains intact even after they are saved. If a Christian chooses, he can denounce Christ, opt out of the faith, become reprobate.

Anyhow, that is where I am now on this issue.

Where I am on this is that there is a sin that can and does nullify a person's salvation, the unpardonable sin, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32, And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I don't believe christians living a life of sin will nullify their salvation unless that life style of sin so hardens their hearts that they then reject the Holy Spirit. We can't sin our way out of salvation, but the life of sin can so harden us that we reject God and the gift He gave us. I believe that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the rejection of him.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Hi again!

I realize that I did not make my question in my other thread very clear. I was not speaking of people, once they are saved, who have not repented of certain sins and whether or not they would receive ongoing forgiveness. Nor was I speaking of whether or not we should forgive people who have not repented. I was speaking of people who had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord and received Him as Savior. Specifically, the people in Luke 23:34 whom Jesus asks the Father to forgive. Were those people, who killed Jesus, and had not yet confessed Jesus as Lord, saved, based on Jesus, in His mercy, crying out for forgiveness for them? And if so, then how does this coincide with our need for a personal confessing of Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to receive remission of our sins? If Jesus could wash away their sins and save them, even though they had not been born again through accepting Him as Savior and being born again, then how is that possible?

Hope that helps!

I don't see why you had to reword it . Salvation is forgiveness - reconciliation .

Without repentance - forgiveness doesn't come into play . As the other poster was saying , this is about relationship .

 

[Leah]

The answer to your question is no, salvation can not be gained without repentence. At some point, the person has to turn away or change the way they think or believe.

As for Luke 23:34, Jesus wasn't praying for them to receive salvation. Salvation and forgiveness do not mean the samething. Forgiveness means to pardon, or as Jesus said, not hold those sins against them. Salvation however is a much busier word that includes forgiveness but doesn't end there.

Jesus is basically praying that the Father does not hold this particular sin against them. "Father, forgive them for what they are doing" is not a prayer for salvation but asking that that particular sin not be included on their account. All their other sins are still on their account but not that particular one. Remember, Jesus gave his life willingly, they did not kill or murder him. That's why Jesus is praying this prayer, the people didn't have much to do with it.

John 15:13, Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus layed down his life, they did not take it from him. Therefore this sin should not be placed on their account, they should be forgiven for what they are doing, they are not to blame.

That's right.


Jesus didn't die for nothing, after all.

 

[hislegacy]

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

​

 

[imperfectchristian]

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

​

Amen!!!

 

[Cassidy]

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

​

I would consider the action of confessing with one's mouth and belief in one's heart as true repentence. Any idiot can say sorry...but it takes a heart felt belief and an confession that you even need Christ in the first place...this, I believe, is the action of true repentence.

Neph - you made sense of that statement for me...thanks. I always wondered why Christ asked for their forgiveness without their repentence....now I know why. Makes so much more sense when you realise that they weren't actually killing him at all.

 

[Elijah2]

Yes...I think we we would all agree with this general use of the word. However, when it comes to a sin that a Christian commits, does a Christian lose their salvation if they do not turn from their sin?

My problem with the whole philosophy is that it is flawed in that it focuses our attention on ourselves and our ability to repent from sinful behaviour, which ultimately equivalates to trying to live by the law. Scripture however says that through faith and following the lead of the Spirit, we put to death the deeds of of the flesh.

The more Christians try to keep the law...the more in trouble they will be.

The answer instead is to embrace to leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Salvation is a Gift from our Lord Jesus Christ, and when I began to wander in the wilderness and sin for 32 years, I didn't lose my Salvation, and when I confessed and repented my sins, my life was rededicated to our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we repent it's as in accordance with what is written in the NT, for an example:

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19)

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30)

Are these verses the Law that you speak of?

In Acts 3:19, Peter is challenging the people to "repent" and "be converted", to change their opinion and beliefs about our Lord Jesus Christ and to serve HIM. When I was lost for 32 years in the wilderness, this is exactly how I felt when I returned to HIM.

On the opening question of the OP: Can salvation be gained without repentance? Then the answer is "NO", because Acts 3:19, explains it perfrectly: "Repent therefore and be converted (saved)!"