Revelation - Continuing or Finished?

Martinius

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I have read several times where Catholic authors talk about revelation as ongoing, which seems to fly in the face of Church teaching. I can't see how anyone could be certain that God's revelation has ended. So, can revelation occur today, and is it occurring? Or did it end with the Apostles, as many seem to believe?
 

Fish and Bread

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I would say that while there is no more direct revelation, that we are coming to better and fuller understandings of things through 2,000 more years of theology, experience as a human race living in the world, experience as the people of God, and discoveries of a secular nature with religious implications in fields like science and psychology.

God is still speaking, but not by sending stone tablets down from a mountain or incarnating himself to walk among us these days. God is still speaking in the sense that we are getting to know who God is and what God means more fully through prayer, study, experience, and discovery.

There are things we know about women and gays, for example, that we just didn't know thousands of years ago. But I think had we known them, we would have had female priests and bishops, and the bible wouldn't condemn homosexuality. We just didn't know. But now we do. And I hope that if there is a human race in another few thousands years, we'll know even more.

I think Jesus was not coming to just say that the Israelites were at Point A and that he was giving us a Point B and we should all just go to point B and immediately commence stopping thinking and developing ethically at Point B lest we accidentally go beyond it. I think he was getting us to Point B and pointing us towards Point C and beyond. He wasn't telling us to stop growing and evolving, he was telling us to grow and evolve, and indicating in which directions. And we're walking that path- or, at least, optimally, we *should* be walking that path.

Some people want to stop at Point B. And while I respect that point of view, I think it misses the point of what Jesus was teaching. I think we should keep going off into the distance and get to point C, D, E, F, and beyond. :) I'm not sure there even is a point Z. Maybe the number of points are infinite.
 
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Martinius

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I would say that while there is no more direct revelation, that we are coming to better and fuller understandings of things through 2,000 more years of theology, experience as a human race living in the world, experience as the people of God, and discoveries of a secular nature with religious implications in fields like science and psychology.

God is still speaking, but not by sending stone tablets down from a mountain or incarnating himself to walk among us these days. God is still speaking in the sense that we are getting to know who God is and what God means more fully through prayer, study, experience, and discovery.
How do we come into "better and fuller understanding"? Perhaps by God's revelation? How can we be so sure that revelation culminated in the Incarnation? When we say we look to the Holy Spirit for direction, aren't we in a sense asking for further revelation? Are we sometimes not recognizing God's revelation due to our own human defects and limitations, and even at times opposing it out of ignorance or selfishness?
 
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Tigger45

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I have to wonder if God hasn't already given us more then our fallen natures can fully comprehend but that those revelations are being realized as the scales fall from our eyes.
 
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Fish and Bread

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How do we come into "better and fuller understanding"? Perhaps by God's revelation? How can we be so sure that revelation culminated in the Incarnation? When we say we look to the Holy Spirit for direction, aren't we in a sense asking for further revelation? Are we sometimes not recognizing God's revelation due to our own human defects and limitations, and even at times opposing it out of ignorance or selfishness?

It probably depends on the finer points of the definition of revelation. We could talk about revelation as being something where God directly seems to basically do, say, provide, or tell people something- examples would be (if we take these these at face value as historical occurrences- which is something I myself am not sure about and that we could discuss, but let's just go with it for now for the sake of me explaining what I'm getting at. ;) ) the Old Testament Prophets, Jesus Christ, Pentecost, the 10 Commandments, Jesus appearing in a vision to St. Peter, etc.. If one takes the view that scriptures were truly divine writ with God basically directly writing through people, and not just the moral understandings of a communities as articulated by prayerful writers who were close to God and affirmed by that community, I guess we could say that is direct revelation, too. Certainly, the clouds parting and God the Father saying "This is my beloved son, of whom I am most proud" when Jesus was baptized by St. John, would be direct revelation.

I think that kind of revelation is over.

However, what happens when the Holy Spirit or acts of God move hearts to greater understanding and people, cooperating with grace, affirm that new understanding as part of the deposit of faith? I think that still happens, and if one defines that as revelation, sure, it's on-going. In a sense, even when scientists discover something about how physics work, because God created the heavens and the earth, that in it's own way is a revelation about God. Some might even say God *is* the heavens and the earth in some senses, which would make that even more of a revelation. But it's not the Old Testament kind where tablets with commandments float down from a cloud. :)

But this second kind of thing that we might call revelation that I believe still occurs, is not necessarily any less important than the first part. Perhaps it is will be a reflection of the maturation of the human race as spiritual individuals when we are truly able to recognize this sort of thing as it occurs at a quicker base and no longer need biblical style revelation. Maybe in a sense, that's what Jesus was doing, handing off the reigns to the Church.

But, of course, the Church must evolve to allow this to happen. And it has evolved. Vatican II was a big evolution. We got off track for a while with some conservative Popes and decisions, but in the long-term scheme of things, that may just be blips on the radar. Benedict and others were found of saying that often the true impact of an ecumenical on the Church isn't clear for 50 or 100 years. Well, we're not even close to 100 years since Vatican II yet. While the conservatives were using it to say that the progressive Spirit of Vatican II folks were wrong and the council really meant much less, maybe in the end we will find that instead the council meant much more. On it's 100th anniversary, maybe we'll be holding Vatican III with married female bishops. :) You never know. :)

And, you're right, sometimes God is trying to tell us things that we refuse to listen to. But if our generation doesn't listen to it, maybe the next generation will, or the generation after that. There's a saying, kind of related to what I was talking about in the last paragraphs, that's something along the lines of "the Church thinks and acts in centuries, not years". God waits. But let's not make her wait too long. :)
 
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Martinius

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I have to wonder if God hasn't already given us more then our fallen natures can fully comprehend but that those revelations are being realized as the scales fall from our eyes.
It appears that revelations may not be recognized or understood when they occur, but only later, as you say. The OT prophets are excellent examples of that.
 
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Tigger45

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It appears that revelations may not be recognized or understood when they occur, but only later, as you say. The OT prophets are excellent examples of that.
I agree ^ this Is a good example concerning the OT but I'd also suggest taking the doctrine of the trinity into account. Where we don't see a good clarification of the trinity until the Athanasian creed. I've seen this play out in my own life's experience where growing up reciting the Nicean creed and later being exposed to Mormon doctrine, raised red flags. Although not initially being able to put my finger on it. Studying the Athanasian creed helped reveil the true nature of God to me.
 
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Davidnic

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General Revelation has ended. That is dogmatically defined. Private Revelation can continue but it can not change the Deposit of Faith. The Holy Spirit can guide in the understanding and presentation of what has already been revealed but it does not, and can not, change the actual revealed Truth. This is the approve form of development of Dogma.
 
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Fish and Bread

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General Revelation has ended. That is dogmatically defined. Private Revelation can continue but it can not change the Deposit of Faith. The Holy Spirit can guide in the understanding and presentation of what has already been revealed but it does not, and can not, change the actual revealed Truth. This is the approve form of development of Dogma.

I have to admit, I thought someone would say this at some point. That is part of why I didn't outright agree with the implication that revelation is continuing in it's original sense. I think ultimately that if theologians with views similar to my own prevail, it will have to by slicing the onion to define continued development as both outgrowth of revelations already revealed but not yet fully realized or understood (as explicitly affirmed by Vatican II as both valid and as something that happens) and as something that might be similar to revelation but is not using the same word and that is technically just different enough in what it does functionally to slide it in to prior understandings and dogmas about the nature of revelation and when it stopped, and allow them to fit together.

That may sound a little tricky, but I feel like there's kind of a history of that and it could be said to one of hallmarks of Catholic theology in a very unofficial sense. For example, usury used to pretty much be informally defined (but formally enforced) as lending money with interest, period, full stop, and be considered a very grave sin. Catholics were forbidden from doing it, to such an extent that only Jews could take those jobs and they got rich, after which the Jews were persecuted for being alleged "money-grubbers" even though we basically told them to take those jobs and made other jobs unavailable to them (But I digress). Now that the entire world economy is based on lending with interest, we say, well, you know, technically it was never really a total ban because [insert reasons] and so now we can just say that you shouldn't charge people over 30% or 40% interest or something, because that would be usury under our new retroactive definition, so we're still against usury, see? I mean, these things do happen. We might also point to the second Vatican council's teachings on religious liberty, and how it seems to differ from prior teachings against religious pluralism, but how we now consider both teachings compatible. Ways have to be found to make things somewhat theological consonant with what the church has been before, but these things are often more malleable than they would initially appear to be, after you've put enough theologians on it, and then had it made a dogma, and then have the organs of the church rushing behind you rapidly to tie everything together in a bow so that it can still be said to fit.

I am not concerned about finding a way to explain things as not being new revelation even as the Church grows and evolves and makes progress. If there's a will, there's a way. It's actually getting the Church to move in a direction in the first place that is the hard part.

People would not fight progressives so hard if they felt we genuinely had a total 0% chance of being successful. Granted, many of the changes we seek are a matter of church discipline, which is always agreed to be theoretically open to change on all sides, even by the people who oppose the specific changes. But those aren't the potential changes that seem to really generate the most outrage and the strongest objections from conservatives.
 
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Vicomte13

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I have read several times where Catholic authors talk about revelation as ongoing, which seems to fly in the face of Church teaching. I can't see how anyone could be certain that God's revelation has ended. So, can revelation occur today, and is it occurring? Or did it end with the Apostles, as many seem to believe?

Revelation continues today.

In the 600s AD, there was the Lanciano Eucharistic Miracle, a public revelation of the truth of transubstantiation.

Throughout the centuries, there have been the incorrupt bodies of saints: public revelations of God's power over biology, decay and physics.

At Lourdes, the Virgin Mary appeared, and the very public healings have continued since.

At Fatima, the sun behaved miraculously before thousands.

In Spanish Mexico, the tilma of Our Lady of Guadelupe was a powerful public revelation of God's call to the Indians.

Then, of course, there are private revelations and more private miracles. I myself have experienced several.

Revelation is ongoing. I know it, and the public miracles show it.
 
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Colin

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I have read several times where Catholic authors talk about revelation as ongoing, which seems to fly in the face of Church teaching. I can't see how anyone could be certain that God's revelation has ended. So, can revelation occur today, and is it occurring? Or did it end with the Apostles, as many seem to believe?
Revelation continues as each person is created .

There is an encounter between God and each person by which we are enabled to come to an understanding of who we are today in relation to God today .

God didn't stop revealing when Jesus ascended to Him .

The God we encounter is not the Jesus of first century Palestine . Rather we encounter Jesus as he is now in his glory . There is no other way . We live in the present , and the Jesus who reveals himself is the Jesus of the present .

God still speaks .
 
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