Responding to Evangelical/Prostestant claims

[Protoevangel]

oops

 

[MKJ]

I totally understand what you're saying Meghan. Now, if you have some time, I want to fly to Canada and come to your home and share some Orthodox literature with you. I think you need conversion ASAP! I have 20 questions I want you to answer, a flock of Orthodox catechisms and manuals and writings to peruse, and I won't stop until you are Orthodox...

Can I keep the books?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

For a nominal fee...

Can I keep the books?

 

[Ignatius21]

Hello,

I'm currently in a conversation on FB with a protestant preacher who preaches at local universities and public parks etc in our area.

He just asked me after I explained to him how the Word of God is a person, Jesus Christ, not ink on paper, and how the ink on paper needs to be interpretedl, and that the Church came before the Bible (a lot more was said, but this is just a summary)

he responded by saying "I know Jesus is the Word of God" nvm he said a couple of posts before that that Bible is the Word of God, then he asked me by what authority do I make my claims.

I'm thinking of responding by asking him "by what authority do you claim the books of the New Testament are Scripture?"

I'm curious what you guys would say

From my own experience, my first real step toward conversion was the night I realized in shock and horror (maybe this is what it's like to have "scales fall from your eyes") that all my foundational Protestant beliefs about authority, the Bible, etc. were in fact traditions. Traditions that I was unable to account for, other than that they arose as rejections of Catholicism.

Likely you will not convert this man. Certainly not on Facebook. But in an open forum, you never know who is watching, and maybe someone will begin to see over time that while he is trying to play the game of "It's the Bible vs. your traditions," really he's doing the sleight-of-hand trick that equates "My traditions" with "The Bible." Maybe some will see that he's really just opposing his traditions to yours. Which doesn't prove Orthodoxy's claim to be the true Tradition, but it does disprove his claim to "just use the Bible."

 

[ArmyMatt]

just outta curiousity Greg, but have you tried to point him to his closest Church at least to pow wow with the priest there? usually that seems the best way to evangelize

 

[All4Christ]

Perhaps take an extended breather in your conversation. Ask the pastor if he would appreciate examining the Orthodox concept of salvation in the overall Biblical sense. Here is an excellent explanation from the blessed late Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church: http://www.saint-mary.net/books/Salvation%20in%20the%20Orthodox%20Concept.pdf


I know we are regrettably not in communion with the OO, but this explanation seems clear (I have personally only perused it, but it seems fully Orthodox to me). The PDF is over 180 pp printed although it includes iconic illustrations.

This is a great resource that helped me significantly!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Perhaps take an extended breather in your conversation. Ask the pastor if he would appreciate examining the Orthodox concept of salvation in the overall Biblical sense. Here is an excellent explanation from the blessed late Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church: http://www.saint-mary.net/books/Salvation in the Orthodox Concept.pdf


I know we are regrettably not in communion with the OO, but this explanation seems clear (I have personally only perused it, but it seems fully Orthodox to me). The PDF is over 180 pp printed although it includes iconic illustrations.

 

[Ignatius21]

This kind of threw me:

1. Sin is disobedience to God, trangression of His
rights and lack oflove for Him... Since God is Unlimited,
sin is unlimited too because it is committed against God,
the Unlimited.. So, sin cannot be forgiven except by an
unlimited propitiation. But whatever works man can do
are limited. God alone is Unlimited.. The only solution
then for the remission of sin was that God Himself
becomes incarnate and die. Thus His death can be an
unlimited propitiation (atonement) that satisfies God's
unlimited justice which required punishing the unlimited sin
committed against God the Unlimited.

It sounds startlingly close to "penal substitution" or at least an "Anselmian" sort of satisfaction theory. Would it be right to say that this document sees the "infinite payment of infinite debt" as an aspect of the whole picture of salvation?

 

[ArmyMatt]

This kind of threw me:



It sounds startlingly close to "penal substitution" or at least an "Anselmian" sort of satisfaction theory. Would it be right to say that this document sees the "infinite payment of infinite debt" as an aspect of the whole picture of salvation?

yeah, that doesn't sound right. it makes God sound like He needs to square His justice, but He has no needs. and sin is not unlimited either

 

[Ignatius21]

yeah, that doesn't sound right. it makes God sound like He needs to square His justice, but He has no needs. and sin is not unlimited either

I attended a speech at a local Coptic Orthodox Church last year, in which the fundamentals of the faith were presented. The priest speaking also said essentially what I quoted above. He put this in terms of justice and satisfaction. Is this part of the Coptic understanding of atonement? It would be hard for me to think that their own Pope was somehow borrowing this from "the West" in the very paper in which he is refuting Protestant claims.

 

[xenia]

The word "word" is a tricky word. In Greek there are several words translated into English as "word" and this is the source of much confusion.

When writings and scriptures are being referenced, the Greek word is graphe.
When it's "God gave me a word" it's rhema.
When it's talking about the Second Person of the Trinity it's logos.

These are very different words with very different meanings yet are all translated into English as the word "word." See, even trying to explain it without using yet a 4th meaning of the word "word" is difficult.

I think you can find some exceptions to this but I think it holds true for the most part.

They are confusing and conflating logos with graphe, which is how they can make confused statements like "Jesus is the Bible," which I have heard on many occasions and explains their tendency towards bibliolatry.

 

[xenia]

People will say "Just stay in the Word" and I ask them what do they mean by "word," Jesus or the Bible? And they will invariably answer: "Same thing."

 

[GregConstantine]

Thank you Xenia, what you said underscores why I kept trying to refocus the preacher's (btw, he is not a pastor, as was erroneously assumed, he is a street preacher whose, after talking to him, theological credentials even as a protestant is suspect) attention on the reality that Christ is the Logos of God, and the written words of Scriptures is the "graphe" of God, a distinction lost in English.

We really need to go back to teaching Greek and Latin in our public schools

Back on topic, I told the preacher in my last message to him that he is not listening to anything I'm saying, he is contradicting himself, and is circumventing any questions or reasonable challenges to his positions, and just keeps repeating himself.

I told him not to continue this conversation with me unless he is willing to actually listen and provide good rebuttals to what I'm saying.

He responded with a hissy fit and called me an apostate.

 

[GregConstantine]

I also told him he does this when he preaches and this is why the students do not take him seriously.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Back on topic, I told the preacher in my last message to him that he is not listening to anything I'm saying, he is contradicting himself, and is circumventing any questions or reasonable challenges to his positions, and just keeps repeating himself.

I told him not to continue this conversation with me unless he is willing to actually listen and provide good rebuttals to what I'm saying.

He responded with a hissy fit and called me an apostate.

that sounds about right. I was told once that I was placed in an evangelical's way by Satan to disrupt his message.

 

[Ignatius21]

that sounds about right. I was told once that I was placed in an evangelical's way by Satan to disrupt his message.

Wear that badge with pride!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wear that badge with pride!

oh I do, hahaha